Troubles at the range today...

[cwlongshot]

Evening guys,
I have been loading since the late seventies. NEVER had a issue with a load I made...till today. I'm OK as is the handi...now. Just after touching off the round, it wasn't so good. The case burst, primer pocket huge and primer gone! Pieces of the trigger guard all over the bench.



The burst was a hand-loaded 223 with a nickel Rem case, 52Gr Speer hp, Rem Match primer and 25Gr's of 4064 powder. At least that's what I labeled the box with. I had 25 of them in a box, I had loaded years ago. First round, boom, action pops open, finger hurts like hell and when I look, no primer and case stuck in chamber. Parts of the trigger guard must have hit me in the finger and where left lying on the bench. It destroyed the case, the trigger guard, sent the trigger spring and the primer who knows where.





I got home and pulled, weighed and thoroughly checked the remaining loads. ALL where dead on 25Gr's of what appeared to be 4064 powder. Definitely a rem primer, I assume a Match as the load label said and had a 52Gr HP bullet again as labeled. I don't know, the only thing I can think is this was over loaded or maybe ad some of another powder or some such. It was the first bullet in the batch. I am fine, the handi was the new Nickel plated 223. I had about ten round thru its tube. Accuracy was only so-so but I hadn't gotten into my good loads. It took ten or so to get it on the paper. I did that with FMJ loads. This was an old load, I just wanted to use it up before I got into my accuracy loads with H322 powder.

I got home and took it all apart to assess the damages.





I found the trigger guard in about five pieces. The trigger spring gone, the ejector in two pieces and something going on with the latch. It doesn’t depress as far, but the gun locks up good but seems to release easily.

Guess I am very lucky. I still don’t fully know what could have happened. Everything is fine and ready for another trip to the range… maybe tomorrow.

I also decided I do not like my Lead sled. Accuracy was worse when firing from it than I could do off my own shoulder.

CW

[quickdtoo]

Sorry to see that happen to ya CW, glad you're ok and the rifle can be repaired. I only know of one other incident like this which was attributed to an obstructed bore, he somehow left the brass rod he used to drop down the barrel to unstick stuck brass in barrel of his 223 Handi, did the very same thing to the trigger guard, no serious injury to him either fortunately. 

Tim

[mauser98us]

It happens c-dub. I once inserted a 308 win in a new rifle that was only marked 308. Turns out it was a 308 Norma mag. The remnants of the case has a place of honor on my bench to remind me to be careful when loading.This was over 25 years ago.The mauser held up great,especially when some call it an inferior action

[cwlongshot]

Thanks guys,
 I never thought of a bore obstruction...

It happens c-dub. I once inserted a 308 win in a new rifle that was only marked 308. Turns out it was a 308 Norma mag. The remnants of the case has a place of honor on my bench to remind me to be careful when loading.This was over 25 years ago.The Mauser held up great,especially when some call it an inferior action

The Mauser an INFERIOR action.. inferior to what?? Name ONE bolt action we have today that doesn't owe its roots to the Mauser action. there is no greater form of flattery than duplication. I LOVE my Mauser's!! I KNOW you do too!!!  

CW

[necchi]

WOW !
Glad your OK,
 Thanks for sharing, that's a heads up for loaders and all shooters, stuff can happen,

[JerryKo]

 

WOW.  Not what anyone would expect.  Glad you are all right.  If you discover what caused it please let us know.  That is scary.

Jerry

[moorepower]

How old was the case? I am glad you have both trigger fingers! Some actions send the gas in a worse place than others, and I would venture a guess the handi is not the one that sends it to a "good" place. Again, I am glad you have both your trigger fingers.

[cwlongshot]

How old was the case? I am glad you have both trigger fingers! Some actions send the gas in a worse place than others, and I would venture a guess the handi is not the one that sends it to a "good" place. Again, I am glad you have both your trigger fingers.

I'm gonna say new or at the most once fired before this. The remaining cases looked new. I don't think the cases had anything to do with this problem.

The blast went straight down thru the ejector opening and out thru the trigger opening just above my finger. I felt it, but it didn't even break my shin. not I had a bad cut last weekend to my trigger finger, should have been 4-5 stitches. I have kept it bandaged all week. Just today I wrapped it with four 1" band-aids. Allowing me to bend it to fire the guns. So if the band aids kept me from further injury who knows.

[gatersb]

wow dude that sucks good thing you werent hurt

[bilmac]

Back when we were playing with our bolt guns what would have happened would have been a blown primer. Make a mistake with a handi and it lets you know about it.

[Slufoot]

Dang CW, I'm really glad you didn't get hurt! I bet those Band-Aids helped more than you think.
I don't have any ejector barrels other than a shotgun barrel but I noticed the ejector from your barrel seems to protrude into the chamber alot more than the extracters of newer barrels. It almost seems that there could be unsupported chamber just at or ahead of the web of the case. Looking at where the case ruptured, this possibly may be an issue?
This is just what I thought of from the pictures and may or may not hold water.
Once again, I'm very glad to hear that you are OK!

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[quickdtoo]

Slufoot,

That's the difference between pre-'99 and later ejectors, the older posts were much thicker ,CW's experience could possibly be the reason why they changed them.

Tim

[Ten Ring]

Do you think a steel trigger gaurd would have helped or harmed?
 Jim

[carbineman]

CW, Glad to hear that you are ok. If you figure out anything more on this I am sure we'll hear from you about it.

[billy_56081]

I'm kinda leaning toward bore obsruction. I am not sure you could get enough powder inthe case to get to thos kinds of pressure. Just glad your ok.


Then again you said you loaded them years ago, is this powder a nitroglcerin based powder?

[Spanky]

Glad you're OK buddy. That's the important thing... you're OK.



Spanky

[dpe.ahoy]

Glad you are OK CW!  Makes a guy remember he's holding a controlled bomb in yer hands when you squeeze the trigger.  DP

[Shu]

Glad you weren't hurt.

Ammunition generally ages very well. I have shot ammuntion dated from 1948 with no ill effects. Nitroglycerin based powders age very well also. Nitroglycern based explosives do have a shorter shelf life but how many of us come in contact with that. The powders don't have much of a problem with stabilizer depletion like explosives do. 4064 ages extremely well.

Best guess would be barrel obstruction of some sort. This is suprising but should cause all of us to check before we shoot. I have read many posts from the original poster, he seems very knowledgeable and has his head screwed on straight. I don't believe it is a problem with his reloading, the brass, powder or primers. What caused the barrel obstruction or how does he prove it. I don't know... fortunately the gun had a weak point to fail in and didn't cause any serious injury.

[Smokin Joe]

That wasn't a barrel obstruction. The case looks like it blew into the extractor area. Barrel obstructions damage or blow the barrel at or near the point of obstruction.

[gcrank1]

Something is going on inside since the latch doesnt feel quite right (but you know that), gotta tear down all the way, Im afraid.
Youve done the load break-down and check, with all OK with the remaining ones Im leaning toward a bad case. Considering all that brass goes through in the drawing process there are weak ones out there.

[carbineman]

CW, Any idea how many times that case was reloaded? Where the case blew out it kinda reminds me of the unsupported case/chamber thing in Glock semi auto pistols.

As of late, my son and I have made a point of only loading our stout loads with cases we know were once shot brass. Case in point, we traded for some Fiocchi 7.62x39mm brass and proceeded to load a couple thousand rounds for our mini-thirty. The starting load was as accurate as we ever had loaded with WC680 milsurp powder we used so we stayed right there. Could something still happen? Sure but this for us has been our loading insurance so to speak. I'm sure we can still get a bad case to reload, but then again you always have that one person (probably government) that will try to install a guard on an ax.

Too bad that happened but it humbles all of us that reload.

[cwlongshot]

Thanks for all the concerned replies! 

I post this so all will know this CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE!! I have been loading, teaching reloading for many years. I am careful and follow the rules to safe loading, I do not take chances and I know what I am doing. MISTAKES HAPPEN and can happen to anyone. SAFE handling of firearms keeps them from becoming a tragedy.

The powder issue has come up a couple times. As Shu commented, and I agree, It's not likely the problem.

Case failure, naw. The case offers an infinitesimal amount of strength in the whole equitation. Look at the pic again, the primer pocket is warped where the brass flowed into the extractor groove. The case was not likely the cause either.

It's my opinion it was either a bore obstruction or a over loading. As I said earlier maybe a different powder, like a fast pistol powder was still in the hopper, OR just lodged in the drop tube and the hopper was clear. Who knows, I doubt I ever will know.
This morning, I looked everything over again. I thoroughly cleaned the gun. I put a tight patch down the bore. It doesn't show any discrepancies. I had just shot approx a dozen rounds to get it on the target and was switching to a different ammo to begin check grouping. I left the bench to look thru the spotting scope on the adjacent bench, returned loaded the round and sent it into the bank as a fouling shot for the new recipe.

Be safe loading guys,

CW

[Squib]

Don't let it shake you.  I'd probably feel like I got an ulcer and kicked in the balls at the same time (I did when I put out my first and only bad round, a SQUIB)... so it seems hypocritical to tell you to move on but you need to.  If you don't get your confidence back soon your skills will suffer.  Hopefully you can get confident with that gun again too.  

as for guesses as to what caused it, I'm thinking a bad/oversized bullet.  have you ever seen what factory seconds look like from a bullet factory.  you take them home and start miking them and WOW the stuff that just jumps out at you: dents, wrong caliber, 9mm/.355 HP, .244 all in a box of .308 rifle rounds.  no joke.  you could have got a totally wrong caliber/make or just a really bad bullet that slipped through qc.  I doubt it was you making a bad load due to negligence for what it's worth.  a bad bullet would have backed that pressure into the primer and unsupported point in the brass, blowing both of them like that WITHOUT an overcharged load.  the bullet could have been the bore obstruction.  when the brass flowed it could have pushed on the breech, and pushed on the ejector/extractor which would have forced it to shove the breech too, and popped the barrel open and blow the primer out (which was also pushing on the breech and just dying to fly out).  I've read about pop-opens being really common on a lot of older, beat-up handi's and SUPPOSEDLY it's not terribly likely to hurt anyone but this one was damn close so it wasn't a latch failure, the latch got FORCED open by something other than a bad, stout load.  just a thought, check that out please.  the more info the merrier, I load some stout stuff in my handi and would like to know what CAN happen to mine when murphy follows me in the woods.  

[gcrank1]

Ah, the 'fast pistol powder caught in the drop tube'! Ive been using dedicated powder measures for some time (pick them up cheap at gun shows) to symplify my life, but.......way back, when I did change powders for different purposes I had a spider do a nest in a little used measure right in the tube. It DID cause me some 'consternation' as I tried to get a consistent verified weight. Some powder would hang up in the tube one throw and dump with the next. 'Old Reliable' was givin' me fits, until I said, enough' and tore it down. Mystery solved for me, and no, I hadnt loaded anything up to have to 'erase'. It is good to have the reason present itself rather than have to wonder.
Glad you (especially), and the gun are OK!

[quickdtoo]

I think I'm gonna start wearing a kevlar fillet shooting glove on my trigger hand when working up loads!!   Not really, but seriously, like you said CW, you'll probably never really know what happened, as the disaster analysis guys say, it's likely a chain of events that cause catastrophic failures, the large ejector post cutout in the chamber combined with some other unknown variables.

I know of one other catastrophic Handi event shared here, although not so violent, the fella's buddy that shot a 7.62x39 round thru his 243 Win when he wasn't looking, it locked up the action, he sent it to H&R, they inspected the frame and barrel, the underlug was damaged, but the bullet cleared the bore, no damage to the frame, they fitted a new accessory barrel and returned it to him. A  .308"-.311" bullet fired thru a .243" bore has to create some serious pressure, but apparently not beyond the safe limits of the frame.

I've read about jacket separations in bore, is it possible the remains of the previous load stayed in the bore? Any suspicious event on the target when it was shot?

Tim

[cwlongshot]

Thanks Tim,

I wasn't on target at that shot. When I shoot for groups I like to fire five rounds. The first two rounds into the bank then remaining three to make a group. The previous rounds where on paper. No hint of a problem before hand. My first recollection was I hadn't completely closed the action as it was opened upon firing. Then I realized my hand hurt and the trigger guard was smoking. Then everything came together in my head and I noticed the pieces on the bench, the smoky hole where the primer was and I knew what happened. I checked my hand, it was fine, more like a sharp slap than any impact, just tingling.
 I have had three other guns blow up on me in my years shooting hand gun competitions. Two times I was also lucky, one time shooting a 1911. everything blew down thru the magazine to the ground. No injuries. This was shooting factory ball ammo supplied at the match.
The second time was in a 22 Ruger. Actually very similar to this last time, buzzing tingle upon firing. Again no injury, but as it was a sanctioned event and manufacturers rep's where on hand. It wasn't my pistol or ammo. I was shooting factory ammo and a factory supplied firearm. I got a case of ammo form the manufacturer!!
The other one was a old bolt action shotgun. Seems the firing pin was corroded and slightly protruded from the breech face, I loaded a round and closed the bolt. It didn't quite get closed before it went off. Thankfully the barrel was pointed safely, I was wearing a set of shooting glasses, my cowboy hat and gloves. My hat was blown off my head and my face was peppered with powder and a couple little scratches from brass shrapnel again, I and everyone around me was safe. All where same conditions, breech partially open upon firing. Faulty firearm was the fault.

This is why I always tell people mistakes happen everyday to everyone. Safe handling of firearms eliminates them form becoming tragedies!! I just want members to be aware of the seriousness of some of the things we do everyday. LIVE and learn.



CW
 

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

Wow CW, thanks for being open, honest and sharing this bad Handi moment with all of us. It's good that there was no injury to yourself or others. Lots of pressure and bad things going on there. 

Bill

[Squib]

and I was worried you'd lose heart! 

[Old Fart]

I had a similar experience quite some time ago with a .223 contender carbine.
I did not realize prior to that the difference between .223 and 5.56 ammo.
After prying a couple blown cases out of the barrel I stopped screwing around.
Live and learn.

[blind ear]

CW, Glad you are OK. A story like that sure makes me stop and think. As hard as we try to stay safe something can mannage to sneak up and bite us. Good luck. eddiegjr