Hunting with the .45ACP?

[ole 5 hole group]

Black t and other high preformance bullets are made to expand and also go deer into the target ( IT WAS WHY THEY WERE MADE TO PASS FBI TEST ) . That said why is a bullet of same construction and profile and speed out of a SAA Colt revolver with a 5.5 bbl better on deer than out of a 5 inch bbl 1911 ? just asking .

You’re looking to stir the pot a little there; Shootall.  A looog time ago in a very far away land, I think a 1911 loaded with 230 ball ammo killed a few water buffalo without a lot of fanfare – not nearly as quick & efficient as the MaDuce but it got the job done. 

There’s a lot of comfort holding the 1911 with a couple extra mags when in Harm’s Way but the ole proven SA 45 Colt will do just as well for the 1st six anyway, all components being equal.         

[SHOOTALL]

That's my thought also . Not stirring the pot  just trying to bring some reality to the debate 
sorta like which rifle round is best to deer hunt , the debate has gone on for years and the best ansewer is anything from 243win to 300 WM and most inbetween . 

[Mohawk]

 If you put the slug through both lungs, honestly, the deer will die quick. And yes, I agree most self defense ammo works fine for deer IF you wait for a broad side AND have good marksmanship. I used the .38 Spl 158 gr LHP(BB load 20C) Standard pressure through the shoulder(which is just lean muscle, not bone) and the deer ran 30' ish yards and folded up dead. A shoulder shot is not a standard of "bone crushing" loads and to measure their strength. If you have dogs, cats, etc. put your finger in the center of thier "shoulder" if you call it that. Front, high, and low is somewhat bone, nothing strong though. The majority of the flesh in the middle..... ain't nothing but simple lean muscle which is what ammo of all kinds was made for. Anyone that thinks that a deer's shoulder has this massive "Bone" to penetrate through then please do an Anatomy Check..... As Mikey said, please keep it peaceful. We are here to compare notes, and that's all. A shoulder shot with hogs may mean something, but a shoulder shot on a whitetail....... nope.

[300winman]

There is a shoulder, I know, I hit it  on a doe this muzzleloader season.  It slowed my 50cal 245gr Powerbelt so much it didn't exit on a around 50-60 yard shot.  She was quartering towards me, and the shot rolled her backwards and she dropped.  Now that is with a 245gr aerotip hp going around 2000 fps out out my Optima, and the bullet did not pass through(came out with what was left of the lungs.)  So I find it hard to believe the 45 acp, is penetrating the shoulder, when a 50 cal 245gr backed with 100 grains of triple 7, barely did the job. 

pretty much anytime a deer is quartering towards you, a shoulder or chest shot is what you got.   There is a difference between a broadside heart/lung shot and a shoulder shot.  The 45acp will work for a broadside heart/lung shot, but a shoulder shot, I would not recommend.

Here is a link I found with a deer skeleton drawing:  http://www.bayoubucks.com/university/2009/12/shot-placement-guidelines-for-archers/

[SHOOTALL]

300winman , I shot a 250 lb boar with a 180 fed bullet from a 300 win mag . Shot him in the neck missed the plate . The bullet stopped in its spine but it was dead. The shot was 20 yards or less. I use 250 gr 45 cal. Hornady bullets with a sabot in my 50 cal. encore and at 90 yards it will take out both front shoulders on a nice 6 pointer , exit and go into a tree. Ya might want to check them out . Of course that's with a 150 gr. load of powder 

[Redhawk1]

It is actually a scapula in the deer, if you ever cut up a deer there is not a ball socket on the front shoulder of a  deer. The scapula is a thinner but wide bone, and depending on the age of the deer as to the thickness of the scapula. I have shot arrows and pistol bullet through the scapula. Some bullets with thin jackets will mushroom rapidly when it hits the scapula, as to why I like hand cast bullets in my handguns.

[powderman]

Its amazing we managed to feed ourselves before the invention of the magnum round. 

HEH. Aint that the truth. POWDERMAN. 

[Mohawk]

That's why I specified broadside. Nothing but bullet loving muscle. Ribs will be a factor but not if you center punch the shoulder. You have the psuedo femur inf front, scapula on top, and the "elbow" in back. Nothing in the center but tissue. And if a 158 gr dead soft LSWC  HP in .38 can blow through to the opposing hide then  NOTHING in .45 cal should have a problem.

[Redhawk1]

That's why I specified broadside. Nothing but bullet loving muscle. Ribs will be a factor but not if you center punch the shoulder. You have the psuedo femur inf front, scapula on top, and the "elbow" in back. Nothing in the center but tissue. And if a 158 gr dead soft LSWC  HP in .38 can blow through to the opposing hide then  NOTHING in .45 cal should have a problem.

Agreed! 

[300winman]

I agree that a broadside is feasible Mohawk, this was the post I was referencing. 

Hey all, I have killed 5 whitetail deer with a Mk. 4 S-70 -- 1911 COLT  using Winchester first generation BLACK TALON 230 h pt. none went over 30 feet or so.  Bullet placement is top priority. all mine were shoulder shots. I wont shoot if not a shoulder shot with any weapon. I practice a lot all year long. None were over 50 yds. The areas i hunt a long shot is about 60 to 75 yds. with a rifle!!  So yes a 45ACP. will work as long as you PRACTICE ALOT !!!!    Good to talk to you-all  Greg Bayes from Kentucky.

Shoulder or scapula, mean the same to me, sorry I'm not that technical LOL

It is actually a scapula in the deer, if you ever cut up a deer there is not a ball socket on the front shoulder of a  deer. The scapula is a thinner but wide bone, and depending on the age of the deer as to the thickness of the scapula. I have shot arrows and pistol bullet through the scapula. Some bullets with thin jackets will mushroom rapidly when it hits the scapula, as to why I like hand cast bullets in my handguns.

I would consider a Black Talon a rapid expanding bullet.

300winman , I shot a 250 lb boar with a 180 fed bullet from a 300 win mag . Shot him in the neck missed the plate . The bullet stopped in its spine but it was dead. The shot was 20 yards or less. I use 250 gr 45 cal. Hornady bullets with a sabot in my 50 cal. encore and at 90 yards it will take out both front shoulders on a nice 6 pointer , exit and go into a tree. Ya might want to check them out . Of course that's with a 150 gr. load of powder 

I'm thinking of stepping up to a heavier bullet for the muzzleloader, I like the ease of loading the powerbelts.  I don't like the sabots that require "break a pushrod" force to load my rifle.  I shoot SST's in my 20 ga, and killed 2 deer with them so far, both pass throughs.  Might have to try them in my muzzleloader.

[Mohawk]

Not a problem, 300.  (:  Their really isn't a trick. Bow range or less(my max is 25 yds), broadside, and through both lungs(center shoulder is a bonus but not required). Modern self sefense HP's are brutal and, for example, if I had a .45 SXT in Auto, I would have no shame using that load. I don't do well in larger calibers like Redhawk does regarding magnums. He has better tools for that than I do for that. I have absolutey no experience beyond the .357 in the magnum label.  I had to make what worked for me do the job. And it did fine.  I always got my deer. I just had to be selective in my shots. I have not handgunned a hog for the above reasons. But for deer, I think a good handgun round meant for murderers, within my personal limitations, will have no problem taking a deer. I remember each deer I killed with a .38. You hear a short crack of the shot and the deer acts like you just put a .243 in them. That's how you know you hit well. Same with the .45 Colt. I didn't shoot but I was in the stand with the shooter. Did just fine with a factory SWC. 

[Redhawk1]

Mohawk, if deer were the only game I hunted with a handgun, I don't think I would of never left the 357 mag or 41 Mag.  But once I stepped up to the 44 mag, 45 Colt, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh and 500 mag. I opened the door to all game.  My bullet choice for handguns is a good hard cast, even if I used my 45 ACP, I would opt for a hard cast bullet.  Up close a 45 cal hole from a 45 ACP with a hard cast bullet placed in the right spot, will kill a deer, hog and even a black bear.

Jumping up to the hand loaded 45 Colt, I can make sure I make 2 holes in my game, it lets out lots of blood and makes tracking easier, if you even have to track it.   

[Mohawk]

There is a very good web site called Hi Powers and Hanguns that is about self defense and he has a few good articles about non-magnum handgun deer hunting.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Black t and other high preformance bullets are made to expand and also go deer into the target ( IT WAS WHY THEY WERE MADE TO PASS FBI TEST ) . That said why is a bullet of same construction and profile and speed out of a SAA Colt revolver with a 5.5 bbl better on deer than out of a 5 inch bbl 1911 ? just asking .

  But why would one shooting a revolver want to shoot a bullet with the same profile and construction as a person shooting a semi-auto?  Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not bullet shape and construction that is the limiting factor of using a 45ACP when hunting?  What I use in my .45Colt Ruger for hunting is a 270gr. Thunderhead that is hardcast and has a HUGE meplat.  This thing punches BIG, straight holes through tissue.  I don't think a similar bullet would feed in semi-auto.
  It is my understanding, which may be wrong, that in a semi-auto you have to use a round'ish nosed bullet; hollowpoint, softpoint, or FMJ.  Hollowpoints and softpoints don't penetrate nearly as deep as a flat-nosed, hardcast.  And the round nose FMJ, has a tendancy to yaw in tissue and not drive straight.  Hell, I may be wrong, but that is what my limited semi-auto experience has shown me.


Jim

[Mikey]

Jim:  Well designed hunting slugs like that Thunderhead you spoke to can be driven a lot faster from a 45 Colt than from the 45 acp and that particular slug may not be a good choice for the acp.  There has been some development of both a 260 and 300 gn slug for the acp but I do not think the heavier slug has, as they say, taken off.  I tried some and could not get them to stabalize in my acp although the maker claims great accuracy from a Mitchell (top quality target piece) 1911. 

Not all 1911 45 acps are limited to round nose or hp design slugs.  I specifically use two swc slugs for hunting slugs in my acp - one is a Mag Tech 230 gn fmj-swc that is very accurate from my 1911 over a charge of either Unique or WW231 and the scond is a Keith design 238 gn hard cast swc originally designed for the 45 auto rim.  Both slugs feed and function without a hitch in both my 1911s and both are very accurate over the two powders mentioned when I push them to about 900'/sec, which is not max for either slug in the acp. 

You are quite correct about the 'yaw' factor of the round nose slugs, whether cast or jacketed, which makes them less than a perfect choice for the acp yet the swc designs, at least from my 1911, function properly regarding cycling and the accuracy is excellent.  jmtcw.

[gstewart44]

I don't carry a 1911 but my constant sidearm when hunting piggies is my SW 1917 45 acp.     my pig load is a 250 gr Keith swc over an stout  load of unique ( it came from an older Speer manual for 45 autorim).    This particular load goes through both shoulders, ribs and/or neck of any piggy I have encountered up to 175 lbs.      they tend to run 20 yds or so before crashing ( except neck shots are DRT). 

[45-70.gov]

in the early  1900s

the government conducted military test on several handguns

they shot cattle  to see help choose the next official hand gun for the military
by  seeing what gun  dropped cattle the fastest

the model  1911  is still being used  and was the official gun  for 60 years

last cow  i looked at was pretty big

hit any animal in the ribs  and how much penetration do you need??

[bubbinator]

I always carry a handgun while hunting/in the woods and more often than not it is a 45 ACP of some type.  I did use the opportunity to take a large doe from a ground blind at 45 steps with a SA 1911 5" loaded w/ Sierra 185gr JHC bulets @ 1000FPS.  Shot was broadside, 2Xlung/liver damage and she jumped and collapsed in about 10 yds.  Bullet exitted thru a rib leaving a "rib-wide hole" in the bone going out. As a LEO and former Animal Control Officer I have had the task of dispatching lots of animals with a handgun and the 45 worked fine, even on large cows.  That ammo was Fed 230gr +P JHP Tactical load)

[Mohawk]

Self defense calibers are used all the time for deer and such. Not being mainstream you won't see it on the Outdoor Channel but they are effective if used properly. Work enough morgue duty and see enough dead people you come to realize the amount of trauma endured by a self defense round is adequate for a deer size animal.

[1911crazy]

But self defence and actual hunting is different.  I would never go hunting with a 45acp.  To see a video of a boar hunt with a 45acp/1911 with a bad shooter go to you tube and search for;

YouTube; "why you shouldn't use a 45 pistol to hunt hogs"   If it was a bigger boar this clown would be in trouble.  I say give the hog a cigar for hanging in there.  Its a sad video too and nothing to be proud of.

Now if you want to see some real handgun hunting done right go to you tube again and see;

Youtube; Handgun Hunting down under : Lynn C Thompson     This is neat.......these guys do it right.
To me its about hunting ethics and shot placement.  Please make a quick clean kill and don't make the animal suffer. We do owe it that much.

[MePlat]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=248742

I wonder if these would work ?  Provided good shot placement.

[cwlongshot]

I have shot three with a 45 ACP...

The first was with the then new 230G Hydro Shoks form a 5" 1911A1 at about 15 yards. I hit her a bit low but recovered her after about 100 yards. Not terrible impressive, but shot placement on my part was off.

The next two fell to my Marlin Camp Carbine and Remington's 185 +p Golden Sabers. BOTH bang flops, DRT, at 25-30 yards. The first was base of the neck in the spine as he tried to sneak thru some cat tails and the second broad side high shoulder.

CW

[Mohawk]

Going hunting with it is subjective. All of my deer are within 25 yds, can't see any further. If that is your max distance then use what you think you are proficient with. Most bow stands for deer  make excellent handgun stands. 

I must add..... please don't confuse deer with hogs.......Totally different creatures.....

[Lawful Larry]

I have an old model Ruger Vaquero that came with two cylinders, .45 Colt and .45 ACP.  I have used both cylinders during CAS shoots.  I would not think twice in using my Vaquero in .45 ACP to go after game.

[shot1]

Back when I started my family we were poooooooooooor and if we did not grow it catch or shoot it we did not eat it. I lived in east NC and fish and game was plentiful thank God. For about 2 cents I could load a 45 ACP round with a 200 gr cast SWC from wheel weights I got free with 7 grs Unique a CCI LP primer and get my cases from the local shooting spot and use a friends loading tools. I kept my family in deer meat with an old WWII Colt 1911A1 I got from a WWII vet for doing some work for him. I kept my shots inside 50 yards and would double lung them. They most of the time did not go over 50 yards. A 45 cal hole through both lungs lets the air out of them quickly. Deer are not hard to kill at all if you put their lungs or heart out of action. Sometimes they are dead but still can run a long ways. After 40 years of hunting and killing hundreds of WT deer I have found that the high shoulder shot is want I use most and is the best for an instant DRT kill.

[cwlongshot]

After 40 years of hunting and killing hundreds of WT deer I have found that the high shoulder shot is want I use most and is the best for an instant DRT kill.

AMEN BROTHER!

CW

[BRL]

Does anyone have a list of companies that offer a hardcast bullet in, or over, 230gr for the .45acp? I think the hardest part of hunting with am acp is finding a bullet to load.

I see a lot of 200 grain cast but not a lot of 230's that are hard cast or that have the right nose. I did find a 260 grain for the acp. Anyone ever try a heavy bullet in the acp? Did it stabilize?

Thanks!!

[Casull]

Beartooth Bullets has a 250 gn hardcast that purportedly works very well in the .45 acp.  There's even some loading info for it (pushing it to about 900 to 950 fps), but it's been awhile since I've been there.

[Blackhawker]

I have used my 45 autos to plink at prairie dogs on occasion.  Years ago I can recall hitting some p-dogs and hitting some very small ground squirrels as well.  A year or so ago, I used my "el cheapo"  Metro Arms American Classic on some prairie dogs and while I didn't hit any that day, I was shooting at them at distances ranging from 75 to 100 yards and though I got no kills on that particular day, all shots were extremely close.  Most shots impacted just under the p-dog's feet and typically sent them up in the air with a blast of sand and dust and had them scrambling for their holes.  Had I been more serious about hunting them with that firearm rather than just plinking and playing around, I could have easily dialed in on them and had some kills. 

I cannot help but think that with fairly decent accuracy out to 75 or more yards, I would guess that a head shot on a dear would be pretty easy at bow hunting distances and I would guess that a head shot with that caliber at that 50 yards or less would more than likely end as a quick fatality for a deer.   ...just my guess. 

[Mikey]

BRL:  Colorado Cast Bullets and Mt. Baldy Bullets both make a 238 gn hardcast swc for the 45 acp/auto rim or Colt, depending on what you want to shoot it from.  I have used both and they are very accurate in my 45s over 6.5-6.7 of Unique for a factory duplication load ro a bit faster.  You can have them sized as you wish when you order.  I have also used the Mag Tech 230 gn fmj-swc over the same charges.  Both the cast slugs and the fmj are very accurate in my 45s and my loads are well below max. 

Also, and I forget who makes them, someone offers a 300 gn and a 260 gn slug:  I believe both are half jacketed with a soft nose in somewhat of a swc type design but not a Keith style with a braod front leading band.  I tried the 300 gn slugs - tried them over the same loading suggested by the manufacturer but could not get them to stabalize without serious pressure signs, and I even tried loading them backwards but without any more success.  These slugs were supposed to have stabalized and given good accuracy in a Mitchell 1911 but I think that was a custom pistol.  I didn't have any luck with the 300s in mine.