Italian 45 caliber traditional for deer hunting

[Basicguy]

I have a 45 caliber bp rifle that I want to use for deer hunting. I have had the weapon  for several years and it has been a wall hanger.

I really don't know how much powder to use in this weapon. I read about using so many grains of powder but the powder is measured in volume. My powder, pyrodex doesn't weigh anything close to what the powder measure says.

I have some Hornaday lead SWC 200grain bullets that I have shot with the gun using 3.1cc of pyrodex. They tap in pretty easy and shoot pretty close to the fixed sight.

Am I anywhere close.

[Winter Hawk]

I have NO experience with Pyrodex, I have always used the holy Black.  Given that, a good starting point for load development is (in grains) 1 1/2 times the caliber.  So for the .45 that would be 1.5 x 45 = 67.5 grains of black powder.

The powder measures are set up to approximate the weight of the black powder charge.  If you weigh the charges out they will be off from what the measure says, depending on granulation.  On top of that, Pyrodex (if I recollect correctly) is about 10% lighter in weight than black powder.  Don't worry about that, measure it by volume as if it were black. 

I am starting to work up a load for my new .45 flintlock, and started with 70 grains of FFFg.  It seems to be shooting a good tight group and I may just leave it there for now, at least until deer gun season has come and gone....

-WH-

[DennyRoark]

Basic, black powder is measured by volume only.  If you want to load by weight,  weigh several volumetric charges and average.  They will weigh slightly different with the same volume.  In reality, don't worry about the weight.  At most, you will have a grain or two difference between charges.  Most important is to measure each charge the same way.  When you pour it into the measure, don't tap it or shake it.  I always pour a little extra into the measure, the swing the spout over it to level it.  Pyro is lighter than black, but is designed to be equilvant in energy to the same BP volumetric measure.  I don't have much experience with T7, but found I had to use a smaller charge for the same POI.  Hope this helps.

[Basicguy]

Ok, thanks guys.

[scout4]

If you are shooting pyrodex use 20 grains less than the real black powder. In other words if you would load the rifle with 80 grains of regular black powder the equal to that in pyrodex would be 60 grains. scout4<><

[Basicguy]

Scout,
Do you mean 60 grains by weight rather than the volume measure that black powder uses for approximating weight?

I have been reloading smokeless powder for some time and measure my powder by weight. I am having trouble comprehending the weirdness of the measuring systems. I have not reloaded shotgun and would have to study up on drams and the like.

I am amazed at the various systems used and the shortcuts taken.

If you are shooting pyrodex use 20 grains less than the real black powder. In other words if you would load the rifle with 80 grains of regular black powder the equal to that in pyrodex would be 60 grains. scout4<><

[necchi]

"I am having trouble comprehending the weirdness of the measuring systems."

Ya, and it's just as tough to explain. It's a century old system. (older actually)
 Black Powder is/was made all over the world, and you just used what worked from where ever you got it. Back around 1890's an effort was made to standardize the "screening" size of BP.
 That's the 2f-3f-4f actual size of the grains. This screening size was for the most part adopted by all, around the 1920's. That way when you bought powder by the screening notation, say 2f or FFG, it would be the same size. At the same time the actual chemicals used differed from region to region and by different makers because of paten issues, so the same volume of powders could in effect weigh differently on a scale. And that still happens today.
(follow so far?)
That's why replica powders say that they equal a certain volume of true BP. Now, on to your delema. It doesn't matter how you measure/weigh your powder charge. You can use your scale if you want, (I'm a loader too).
 Let's work up your load, BP and the replicas are WAY different than nitro's it's much more tolerant of variations. You need to keep the Patch and Lube variables the same as we go. We'll use 5 shot groups @ say 50yrds(?) bench if you want. Bore condition IS an issue and some field cleaning should be done between groups.
 Start with 55grns on your scale for the .45,
,next round increase by 5 grains (yes 5 full grains) to 60, then to 65-70-75 by the time you reach 80 you should have already begun to see the groups open.
Powders on a scale are usually less than that same charge by volume so your still in the safe range for your gun.  Theres only 1 "node" for these things, some guys do find another at really low charges of 20-30 for plinking but does not apply to big game. A gun zeroed at 50 will be about 4-5" low at 100 and still effective for deer kill zones. A patched round ball loses energy quit fast after 125, so keep shot's ethical.

What make is your rifle, CVA? Jukar? T/C?

[scout4]

Pyrodex is about 20% stronger than regular old timey black powder. I use the same powder measure, just 20 grains less. scout4<><

[AtlLaw]

Ya, and it's just as tough to explain.

But you did very well!     Good summary, good advice.  People get to wrapped up in the weight vs. volume measurement thing.  I first researched the subject many years ago when the difference between drams and drams equivalent made itself known to me... don't ask... 

Like you said, pick the method you like and use it.  I weighed charges of the BP I use and compared the result with the weight of a volume measurement of same powder but that was just for my own information.  When loading I still measure by volume.

[DennyRoark]

Pyrodex states that it is an equlivant to black powder by volume, so 90 volume Pyro = 90 grains volume BP.  Thru my experience (30+ years), that pretty much holds true.  Forget weight, just pour, level ,transfer and make smoke!

[quickdtoo]

From Hodgdon loading notes: http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Pyrodex is lighter in weight than blackpowder and weighs only about 70% as much as blackpowder. However, because Pyrodex yields more energy per pound than does blackpowder, the same volume of Pyrodex gives similar performance to blackpowder. Pyrodex loads given in this manual for muzzleloading guns are measured by volume, not weight.

[coyotejoe]

"What's lighter, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?" Apparently, whoever wrote that for Hodgdon didn't know the answer. They should have said "Pyrodex has a lower bulk density than does blackpowder", NOT that it is "lighter", that's just a foolish statement. But I think we've pretty much covered the powder aspect, just try loads of 40-80 grains volume measure of black or Pyrodex.
Let's talk projectiles now. I wouldn't shoot pistol bullets. They will be hard to seat perfectly straight and centered and are very likely to leave lead fouling of the bore. While there are conical bullets designed expressly for muzzleloaders I think you'll get much better accuracy with a patched ball. I'd recommend you start with a ball of .440" or .445", a patch of .015-.020". They should be a tight fit, probably requiring a short starter to get them down a few inches before going to the ramrod. The cloth patch can be either purchased in a package of precut disks or you can cut your own from cotton or linen fabric. Either way they will need to be lubricated to keep the powder fouling soft. For range shooting spit is as good a lube as any and much better than most lubricants. Just stick a patch in your mouth, squeeze out most of the saliva, lay it over the muzzle and start a ball but don't forget to ram it all the way down tight on the powder charge. Never fire any projectile which isn't fully seated on the powder or it will likely bulge the barrel.

[Basicguy]

Had a near ouch. My gun an EIE, had a blow out. I was shooting it with various loads and found that I had a Lymans bp book. I found the weight of bullet and was using my bp volume measure. When I got to 100 grains of volume (about 60 grains of actual weight of pyrodex) the gun spat back. The nipple popped out and it sprayed powder on my face. No damage to me fortunately. The nipple had the threads somewhat peened over. I got out my two other nipples and the damage to the nipple was obvious. I inspected the barrel at the nipple threads and it seemed ok. No cracks or other obvious damage.

Perhaps it is time to keep this gun on the wall and get something else for hunting muzzle loader season. My groups were not that good anyway.

[AtlLaw]

When I got to 100 grains of volume (about 60 grains of actual weight of pyrodex) the gun spat back. ... My groups were not that good anyway.

my oh my...    problems at only a hundred grains... in a traditional 45 caliber... who'd a thunk it...  

Glad you're not hurt.

[Basicguy]

Thanks Atlaw,
I called my favorite gun store and they said that they got numerous bp guns in today. I plan on heading over there Saturday morning. I haven't gotten my deer this year so far and want to be ready on the 24th.

[Winter Hawk]

Could the nipple have been loose?  I had the same thing happen with an underhammer I had, the nipple would loosen up with firing, then one day after about the third shot I got a stout whack on the arm when it shot out.  I found another nipple which had oversized threads, drilled & tapped the barrel to accomodate it and had no more problems.  Check with Track of the Wolf.

-WH-

[necchi]

FWIW;
 The oversize nipples that are available are American thread. Metric threaded nipples either 6mmx.75 or 6mmx 1.00 have an outside thread dimention larger than the inside of the American, so the oversize never really get a full grip on new thread in a metric hole unless the max oversize is used in a newly tapped hole.
I'd urge caution when going from metric to American thread.

[Anonym]

I think the max recommended loads depend on the rifle, not the caliber.  I have a T/C Seneca in .45 and they don't recommend going much over 60 grain of powder in it due to the 13/16" barrel and lighter stock.  On the other hand, I had a .45 barrel, 1-inch for a T/C Renegade that i loaded up to 80 grain without so much as a hiccup. 

In that italian rifle, I personally would stick with 70 grains or less.  I would start around 50 grains and work up until you get a good load.  IMO, 100 grains is too much powder for 99% of muzzleloaders on the market, most only burning about 80 grain or less in the barrel.  If I recall correctly, most 50 cals (up until recently when they started advertising "magnum" muzzleloaders), had a 100 grain max loading with the 45's being considerably less...

[coyotejoe]

Well lets see now, you're shooting conical bullets from a gun designed for round balls, you're shooting 100 grains in a gun better suited to 60-70 grains, your nipple may have been cross threaded, otherwise I just can't imagine what the trouble could be.