Author Topic: 243 FTF's only w/ specific ammo brands or types/ (Read 2282 times)

cpileri · « **on:** November 17, 2010, 04:21:14 PM »

Dear Sirs and Ma'ams,
This is my forst post after reading practically the whole thing over the last couple weeks. i have learned alot and become very interested in these rifles, esp for their potential to train young shooters. Anyway, i do have a question...

Much has been written about 243Win troubles. But has anyone experienced FTF's (in particular) or any problems in general ONLY with specific ammo types?

My limited experience. brand new 243, hand lapped by an experienced hand but no other work or mods done to the rifle. I tested a few brands of ammo with intent to let my sonn use it on his first whitetail this year, at a range of `55 yards, max 75yds. I never did get to the "accuracy" testing(*) because I was plagued by FTFs. Specifically:

1. Monarch boxed, Prvi (nny) 100gr soft point: BANG everytime
2. Winchester 100gr PP: BANG everytime
3. Win 55gr Ballistic Silvertip: BANG everytime (but too light for deer)
but,
3. Barnes Vor-tx 80gr TTSX: nothing x 2 strikes on each
4. Hornady 80gr GMX: nothing x 2 strikes each round

I pulled the trigger all the way back just like the FAQ says. I waited for the hangfire, then fired again. 2 primer dents, no BANG. But even if that did work, i wouldnt want that uncertainty on my sons first whitetail!!
The primers do not appear to my naked eye any further deep sert than the brands that worked. Nor does there appear any significant cartridge dimensional differences, though I have not micrometered it out specifically. Maybe I should, but I am hoping for someone to say 'Oh, sure. We know what your problem is..."

I was really hoping to use the TTSX on the deer, and thinking something a little bit less than 100gr since the 1:10 twist barrels MIGHT not stabilize the longer bullets (though as said, I didnt even get to the accuracy test). So i bought the following to test soon:
1. Nosler Custom 85gr partition
2. Winn 95gr XP3
3. Black Hills 95gr Horn SST, and
4. Black Hills 85gr TSX

Any thoughts, pointers, etc.

Sincerely,
cpileri

(*) since I have shot nowhere near 60-80 rds to break it in, despite hand lapping, I may not yet be ready to accuracy test it.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2010, 04:39:44 PM »

Welcome! I'd contact H&R and make arrangements for it to be repaired, it may need a new hammer spring or one of the updated transfer bars(lifter striker), give them a call and make arrangements to have it sent in on their dime.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/support/repairs.asp

cpileri · « **Reply #2 on:** December 20, 2010, 07:40:27 AM »

Well, I did as you suggested: sent it in for repairs. I also decided to add a few other barrels,a nd have them check specifically the hammer spring, etc for any causes of FTF's.
I hope its OK for me to relate my experiences here. I wonder if they are unusual or not.

1. Asked them to check the firing pin, etc: I know they didnt check because if thy did they woudl have noticed the little piece of cotton I left in the pin channel (yes, I did that on purpose. its sneaky and shows lack of trust, but I just got a 'bad vibe' from the guy on the phone. I cant explain it better than that) So, I guess I'll see how the new ammo brands work, as mentioed in last post.

2. new barrels: 45lc/410bore: had ~6-inches of thick (but thankfully only) surface rust ahead of the chamber. Yes, it was rust, not orange-brown preservative or grease. This was a new barrel?!?! I corked the barrel, and filled it with Evapo-Rust(TM) overnight and cleaned it up. Now its fine.

3. new barrel: 20ga: had been dropped/bumped along the way somewhere, the muzzle crown (thin though it is ona shotgun barrel) or barrel lip, if you will, had a small dent and was missing blueing in th dented area. I recrwoned it to remove the burr from sticking into the bore; and re-blued (actually, used a Blue Touch-up pen) and it looks new.

4. new barrel: 30-30Win: also had been bumped somewhere along the way, the left rear sight leaf was smooshed as if it had been hit directly on the tip of it and it squished the soft aluminum into lopsided cone. I tapped and re-shaped the sight leaf, then re-painted it (Aluminum Black did nt work so well). Shouldnt affect the sight picture of the little groove in the middle of the notch.

Is this experience typical of the company?
I think i will enjoy the rifles in any case. I do enjoy working on the parts myself. But if I pay someone for work ro a new product, well...

Any thoughts appreicated!
Merry Christmas!
C-

P.s. my wife thinks I am nuts and shoud send them back. But I think: no way. First off, it will be another 6-12 week wait. Then, any company that will send out rusty, bent items and not check what they said they would; are nto likely to remedy that with a second chance. So i'm keeping them and will become a better gunsmith because of it. Every cloud has a silver lining.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** December 20, 2010, 07:46:51 AM »

I would have called and made arrangements for them to make it right or at least made them aware of the mistakes they made so they can correct them, you should also post in the Ilion Satisfaction poll and read the other replies there where H&R has made things right so many times before.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,150915.msg1098634010.html#msg1098634010

cpileri · « **Reply #4 on:** December 25, 2010, 04:43:57 PM »

Thanks, I will post there.
Merry Christmas!
C-

cpileri · « **Reply #5 on:** December 25, 2010, 04:51:51 PM »

Also, I took it out again the other day just to see if i was wrong and the problem was fixed and never was in the firing pin, so my dustball was not indicative of anything.

Began having FTF's with formerly reliable ammo, and with 30-30 ammo (barrel swap, of course)- so its not the ammo. Its the rifle.

i dunno, maybe I'm being too harsh. i know these are not the most expensive rifles in the world. So i don't know exactly what i expected- but i did expect it to FIRE.

Anyway, I'll post in the Satisfation section, as suggested.
Thanks,
Merry Christmas!
C-

revbc · « **Reply #6 on:** December 25, 2010, 05:55:29 PM »

Are you following through on your trigger pull? From reading your post I couldn't tell. You stated that you pulled it all the way back and waited on the hang fire, that sounds like the second pull after it has miss fired. It has been my experience that if a primer is indented once and did not fire, it probably won't fire the second time.

The transfer bar operation is dependent upon trigger follow through. If you let off as soon as the trigger breaks you will get FTFs.

Merry Christmas

Bobby

cpileri · « **Reply #7 on:** December 26, 2010, 12:54:50 AM »

revbc, Yes, sir, I am. I wish this were as simple as that. Actually, at first, some rounds did fire after the 2nd or 3rd try. But that stopped by the time of my last post.
I did just order some Wolff XP single coil springs; so maybe that's a fix there.
I know as soon as I start tapping out pins, i will void my warranty but like I said i am reluctant to send it back to H&R/NEF/Remington/whoever.
C-

cwlongshot · « **Reply #8 on:** December 26, 2010, 01:07:06 AM »

First, Welcome to the site!

I'm sorry to read of these problems. Talk about good money after bad!!! I'm glad at least you have them fixed up to be at least partially, functional. I agree with Tim, you should notify them of the issues. I would not accept the cs rep on the phone. Try to get someone of authority. Maybe the Remington rep Brian that's on here would be of assistance. Explain everything. Your completely within your rights to fix your own barrels. But shouldn't have to! The FTF's where and continue to be the problem. Its safe to assume that nothing was done for this at all. Its safe to assume that they just fit the barrels and shipped it back to you. Especially in light of the "tissue trick".

IF you really against sending them back. There are some things outlined in the FAQ's to check and fix most FTF problems. One thing that I do to all my frames is to swap in a Wolfe HD hammer spring. Then check the firing pin protrusion. Should be at least .040. This is adjusted be grinding the face of the hammer where it contacts the frame above the dis-connector. Then you can check the 243's chamber depth. this can be done with a go/nogo gauge or unscientifically with a straight edge and a feeler gauge.

Many preople have been plagued with FTF's in these firearms. I have created a couple trying myself, to get too light a trigger and fouling up the "timing" of the transfer bar. Easily fixed with new parts. IMHO, the biggest culprite is poor quality spring stock and or shooters failure to fully and completely pulling the trigger.

Good luck,
CW

cjrjck · « **Reply #9 on:** December 26, 2010, 04:15:40 AM »

Can you post some pics of the misfires? Pics of the primers?

cpileri · « **Reply #10 on:** December 26, 2010, 06:40:16 AM »

Sirs (ma'ams?),
Thanks for the tips and the welcome. I will try to post more positive and useful posts from now on. i hate ot show upo and have my first post be a complaint- sets up my whole online image as a 'whiner' when I like to think i am not.

When i look at the firing pin protrusion, it seems to come out pointed downward, but the hits on the rpimers are mostly dead center. I will post some pictures if my camera will take enough detail to be clearly seen tomorrow or soon.

Just so i am clear, to increase the "smash" of the hammer on the transfer bar with the goal of increased firing pin protrusion, you file down the hammer face? or should i file down the receiver to allow it more room? or maybe a thinner transfer bar? I just want to be educated on the realitve roles of these parts before I permanently alter them.

Thanks!
C-

cwlongshot · « **Reply #11 on:** December 26, 2010, 06:52:28 AM »

As a general rule, never alter the receiver.

Look at the hammer, with it resting against the receiver. The part of it actually touching the receiver is where you need to remove material.

CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 26, 2010, 01:14:02 PM »

The firing pin will only have just so much travel within the frame. If you have the right stuff (a 'protrusion guage' and/or micrometer or dial caliper, etc.) to measure it to the 'thou' you do so by holding a little pressure on the hammer in down position (it is unloaded, right). Then cock it, and using something blunt press the firing pin flush with the frame from the rear, and re-measure protrusion. Most of us have developed an 'eye' for things like this over time and can tell a lot by looking at the dimple in the fired case.
FWIW, you usually (unless very skilled and knowledgeble) only remove metal from the most cheaply and easily replacable parts. Otherwise you may have a lampstand rather than a rifle.

cpileri · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2010, 12:47:19 AM »

Well, i did the protrusion check using a straight edge. I just pushed the firing pin with a file until the edge of the file was flush with the receiver. The difference was huge.
The firing pin was pushed out ~0.10" more than the length it is(was) with the hammer/transfer bar strike.

So in contrast to my above post, maybe a FATTER transfer bar would work. but since i dont have one, i felt better about filing down the hammer face to allow it to get 'closer' and push the transfer bar furhter into the firing pin. I don't want to risk puncturing the primer, so i just filed a little bit for now, about 0.005" more protrusion.

I will try it on some empty primed brass and file more if i have to. I'll post those pictures as well. (soon)

Then, after letting you all comment/reply. i will try a range session. Next weekend is the last weekend for whitetail where I am going (Bucks/does for my son "youth only", does/antlerless OK for adults). So maybe my son will get to use his 243 after all!

C-

cwlongshot · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2010, 02:26:37 AM »

Very common to find more travel available in firing pin. It's kind of a built in adjustment.

Good choice going a little at a time. OA protrusion should be in the .040 range. Also be sure tip is smooth and round. This caliber not generally a problems as say the maxi can with pistol primers. (The 243 always having been a rifle caliber)

What was your measured protrusion?

CW

cpileri · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:25:38 AM »

Bad news: I tried the primed brass test.
At first, i tried the Hornady Superformance 80gr GMX, which was preiously a FTF load, and it fired! progress, or so i thought...
Then i tried one of the dud rounds, the barnes Vortx 80gr TTSX; still FTF. OK, so maybe because the primer was already dented (twice) it was never going to fire. So I got out an old remington load, pulled the bullet and loaded it. Click.

With a pathetic, shallow, dent on the primer.

Ok, I am waiting for the Wolff extra-power hammer springs. I wonder if I can get 2 of them to fit???

C-

cpileri · « **Reply #16 on:** December 29, 2010, 12:17:51 AM »

Lets see if I can upload pictures of the primers mentioned above. C-

cwlongshot · « **Reply #17 on:** December 29, 2010, 12:28:48 AM »

The last pic is a very lite hit.

In the Second to last pic, the top round is marginally lite the bottom round should have gone off. I feel it is a dud and of no fault of your firearm. Top pic I assume is same rounds?

What did you find with the chamber? Was a seated round below flush by more than a couple thousandths? Sheet of paper is about 3.5-4 thousands. Should be less than that.

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2010, 04:54:29 AM »

The bottom pic clearly shows an off center strike which to me means the action wasn't locked up completely since the others are centered.

Tim

cpileri · « **Reply #19 on:** December 29, 2010, 02:50:18 PM »

Tried again and pushed really hard to make sure my action was closed, and tried again at the primed brass: a deeper dent, but still off center.

I did notice, and post above, that the firing pin does protrude with a noticeable downward (toward the trigger) slope. So it could be that, or could it be that my action, even when locked, is not 'tight' and thus I get light strikes?

How can i check that? or am i stuck with sending it back again.

I'm beginning to think i got a lemon.

C-

gcrank1 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 29, 2010, 03:59:07 PM »

Dont just 'push it closed' (these arent finely hand fitted British guns), snap it closed with some authority. They often need to get that broke in too. Dont abuse it, but act like you really want it to know you mean business.

cpileri · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2010, 02:05:11 AM »

Sorry, what I meant was that i snapped it closed and pushed hard to try to OPEN it again. It held closed, so i figured it was closed down well.
Now , if despite that they dont line up tightly...
C-

cwlongshot · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2010, 02:42:03 AM »

While I agree with Tim about the possible problems associated with an off center strike. But a number of my handis are struck just like yours. My first maxi is a 258 and factory fit. I do have power spring but it's off center strike goes bang everytime so far. In a perfect world the pin would be centered when the barrel is perfectly fit. I just don't think there made that precisely. You can check this. The barrel should be set below the top of the receiver just in front of the hammer when fully closed. About the same distance as it is on its sides.

I did fit one barrel one time where I found the lug weld proud enough to contact the receiver. I ground it down with a dremil and it was fine.

The downward angle of the firing pin is alsomperfectly normal. It follows the arch of the hammer fall, allowing all possible energy to move the pin into the primer.

I don't remember if you answered me about the chamber depth. Also these are all factory loaded rounds correct?

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2010, 04:58:22 AM »

My off center strike reply is due to the one bottom pic that appears to be a low off center strike compared to the rest that are centered, that to me means the action wasn't closed all the way which would result in a low, light strike. Could be caused by a defective round, debris in the chamber or on the chamber face, or the most likely culprit, just not closing the action with enough force which is real easy to do with the rifle laying on bags, specially if the forend is too tight.

Tim

cwlongshot · « **Reply #24 on:** December 30, 2010, 05:08:43 AM »

Absolutely!! How did I miss that. ;(.
Yes, all these cases came from same rifle, all SHOULD have the same or similar strike. Now that this in better illuminated

I completely agree with Tim's assessments. Opologies Tim, I didn't catch your drift till now.

Something happened to cause this off center hit after getting prev centered hits.

I'm still wondering about the chamber depth....

CW

cpileri · « **Reply #25 on:** January 03, 2011, 05:14:26 PM »

OK! Finally seem to be making progress:

Installed Wolff Xtra power hammer spring- also added a washer to the side of the hammer spring to keep lateral movement to a minimum.
It sets off primer only loads every time, and even set off some of the formerly 'dud' rounds.

What a relief!

I will take her out and try her with live ammo, and with the 30-30 barrel and probably shotgun barrels as well. Hopefully; this is it! Thanks to all for all your help and guidance.

Only thing left now is that the transfer bar seems to flop around a bit, such that if i have the rifle pointed muzzle downwards, the transfer bar gets stuck under the firing pin before i can completely cock the hammer. If I point the muzzle upwards, it 'flops' rearward and clears the firinng pin no problem. Is this another problem anyone has had?

I never noticed it before, as my testing was short and my attention diverted to more annoying matters (of which you all have read at length already); so i dont knwo if it was always like that.

But at this point, unless its easy to fix. i am just going to live with it- satisfied that it will reliably FIRE (if it does, at the live range test, that is).

Happy New Year,
C-

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** January 03, 2011, 05:44:09 PM »

Yup, you may be able to re-peen the pin that holds the two pieces of the t-bar together, but a new one would be better, Brownells and Numrich both carry them, although Brownells in backordered now.

Tim

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=280500A&catid=3626

cpileri · « **Reply #27 on:** January 06, 2011, 10:57:12 AM »

Well, tried some live fire and am sad to say not a single round discharged in any caliber: 243, 30-30, nor 20ga (though the 410/45 barrel fits on an old SB1 receiver well enough, and di dfire a few rounds- that SB1 has never had a problem).

I don't know what the problem is and i am done trying to figure it out.

I'll send it back someday, expecting to get a bill for all the parts I've filed, pins i have tapped on, and whatever else. I am wondering if its even worth it, between the parts, labor, and shipping; I may be better off forgetting the whole business. But I am thinking I'll get another receiver first.

Too bad, i was sorta looking foward to this working.

Any Handi-gunsmiths in the Central Texas area, who can make lemonade out of this lemon?

C-

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** January 06, 2011, 11:25:32 AM »

H&R will fix it, it's pretty obvious the transfer bar is the likely problem, follow the directions in my first reply to get it fixed, ask them for a return shipping label to cover shipping costs.

Tim

cpileri · « **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2011, 01:09:05 PM »

I will send it back again. especially now that i have anew receiver altogether. I spent some tiume with the FAQ on barrel fitting, and a file and opening/cclosing the action really hard over and over until it fits tight and locks up. Am very excited to try it.

Of note, i did use a Forster go/no-go set on my 30-30 barrel and the action closed on BOTH guages. so its not too little headspace,a nd MIGHT be too much. Although the headstamp is even witht he breechface and appears so even after firing. I dont want to file down the breechface becasue right now I have a berely visible (<0.01") gap between the receiver breechplate and the barrel breech face; and i dont want it any bigger. Next step is to do a chamber cast and see.

But i will try this new receiver.
C-