.358" Wildcat based on 45-70 case

[Ololique]

With the pending changes in the cartridge case length in Indiana from 1.625" to 1.800", I've had the gears grinding away in my head.  I'm thinking of putting up some cash to have a wildcat round made from the 45-70 case that's necked down to use .358" bullets.  I've got the case design drawn up in my CAD program, and have a theoretical case capacity calculated from those dimensions; 58gr water, which is right in line with the .356 Win and .358 Win.  My plan is to use my current .357 Max barrel on my Handi (SB2 frame) and have the new chamber reamed out.  Has anyone attempted this or have any experience necking down the 45-70 case?  Anyone see any obvious pitfalls that I'm walking in to from a technological standpoint?  Obviously this isn't cheap, so I'm well aware of the cost involved with doing something like this.  If any wildcatters, and Handi rifle guru's have anything to add, I would be very appreciative.  Thanks!

[cwlongshot]

I know it s been done.. I wanna say 35 geary or gravy or something like this..

Maybe a google search will turn it up I'm sure my ackley or wildcats book will have the answers.. let me go look...

CW

[cwlongshot]

Its the 35 Greevy Express.

From Wild Cat Cartridges Volume I:
 Built by Lester L. Greevy Jr. Built for a Marlin action and a 200-250Gr bullet. Should duplicate the 35 Whelen with out the small shoulder draw backs. The disadvantage of the rimmed case in a bolt is actually a positive in a single action. Nice idea!!

CW

[Old Fart]

Did you do that in Inventor or Solidworks?

[Ololique]

Unigraphics.

[quickdtoo]

The Greevy is too long for Indy regs, it's too long at the shoulder even.  

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=282

Check out the Indiana forum we have a site sponsor that makes Indy wildcats.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/board,249.0.html

http://www.bfgcartridges.com/

[Dinny]

It's a good thought, but I can't imagine what advantage it holds over the the 358 BFG, let alone the .357 Maxi. Both are 200yd capable cartridges when properly loaded.
  I would recommend you contact Bryan at BFG cartridges, he's making plans for the proposed changes to the IN state law.

Thanks, Dinny

[Ololique]

I'm looking to go over 200yds as I have a couple of places with opportunities with long shots.  I'm no stranger to long range either...  How easily would the BFG round go into a Handi?  I'd rather not reinvent the wheel...

Also, this isn't the Greevy round either.  It's shortened to 1.80".

[Dinny]

The 358 BFG is at-home on a Savage bolt action or Encore rifles as a replacement barrel.  This is all listed on his website.

Thanks, Dinny

[quickdtoo]

I'm thinking the 358BFG being based on the WSSM will have too much breech thrust, just depends on the pressure it's loaded to, no one offers any short mag chambered Encore barrels for that reason, loaded to pressures lower than 65kpsi it may work ok in a Handi, I've worked with a 300WSM on and SB2 frame which didn't work out, to much action flex with the big .555" case head even at 30-06 velocities.

If they go to a 1.8" case length, how about a short necked 35 Remington? There wouldn't be much neck, but crimped bullets may work fine, I push the 180gr SSP in my 22" 35 Rem Handi over 2450fps.

Tim

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

Trajectory for Hornady .358 dia. 180 gr. SP-SSP Interlock at 2450 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.248   0.248   0.248   0.248   0.248
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1440   1440   1440   1440
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet   Humidity: 70 Percent   Pressure: 29.53 in/Hg
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   2450.0   2398.7   1.96   -0.18   0.37   23430.58   0.000000000
50   2280.2   2077.7   1.82   -0.76   1.67   0.0   0.063465324
100   2117.1   1791.0   1.69   -3.19   3.16   0.0   0.131738660
150   1960.8   1536.4   1.57   -7.57   2.71   0.0   0.205364303
200   1811.9   1311.9   1.45   -14.21   0.0   0.0   0.284951608
250   1671.1   1116.0   1.34   -23.5   -5.37   0.0   0.371167756
300   1539.6   947.3   1.23   -35.92   -13.85   0.0   0.464705669

[Ololique]

The short necked 35 Rem crossed my mind first...  It's definitely not ruled out!  180 @ 2450fps is in the range that I'm interested in 

[Lon371]

 Tim
 If you cut a .35 rem back to 1.80 would you be able to shoot it in the .35 Handi? Thanks

Lonny

[cwlongshot]

The short necked 35 Rem crossed my mind first...  It's definitely not ruled out!  180 @ 2450fps is in the range that I'm interested in  

Too many shortcomings. If you truly are considering this a full length 30-30 case to 35 (35/30-30) or the 357 Herrett is already established and makes for an excellent choice for a single shot like a handi.

Even one of the GNR calibers would be another good option. JMHO  

CW

[quickdtoo]

Tim
 If you cut a .35 rem back to 1.80 would you be able to shoot it in the .35 Handi? Thanks

Lonny

I don't see a problem with it, the Super 35 Rem loads were shot at a COL of 2.7" which leaves about .200" bullet seated, they were crimped with a Lee 35 Rem Factory Crimp Die which doesn't require a cannelure, you'd have to make some modifications to make the die crimp a shorter case, but that's not a problem, I've done it on several chamberings Lee doesn't make dies for. Maybe CW can reveal the short comings he mentioned. 

Tim

[cwlongshot]

I can do that in two words.. HEAD SPACE.

The cases diameter doesn't leave much for a shoulder and the same can be said for the infinitesimal rim on the case. A rimmed case solves this problem.

Speaking of a larger case, you can get similar ballistics at lower pressures. Both the rimmed case and the lower pressures make for a VERY handi friendly package.  

CW

[quickdtoo]

Sorry, I don't buy the rimmed advantage BS for Handis, specially for a handloader, that's a non-issue IMO. The 35 Rem has a bigger case head and more capacity than the 30-30, going to a larger diameter case is the only way you're gonna get the ballistic benefit the OP is asking for in a short case within the frame capabilities of the Handi, and the 35 Rem should do it without custom dies(Reeder's GNR) to get there. 

Tim

[mcwoodduck]

Isn't 348 Win basicly a 45-70 that has been blown out a little and then necked to .348?
why not just neck it up to .358? instead of trying to design a whole new case?
I know that has nothing to do with the Indiana case regs.
What about necking down one of the linebough cases to 358?  Length would be about right.
My choice would be a 357 Auto mag.  
44 auto mag was a 308/ 30-06 / 300 Savage/ 7or 8X57 case cut down to the length of a 44 mag and a 429 bullet stuck in.
357 Auto is a necked version of the 44.  
If you make it with a .358 barrel a fast ream to .358 Win or 35 Wh can be done if they change the rules or you move. Standard extractor for the 30-06 will work.  If you want a rim why not cut 307 Win cases and make the same rounds.

[cwlongshot]

  Speaking for first hand experience battling HS issues with the 35Rem and 357 Herrett. (Years of battling them) I can tell you hand loader or not, HS off a rim is far easier than a very small shoulder in the long run.

Even factory 35Rem ammo has been plagued with it for many years.

I'm not going to try to convince you of the merits of the rimmed case over a rimless one as it pertains to head spacing. Both work very well. I'm certain applications, this is one the rim HS is superior. In most it's a wash. BUT, when a cases shoulder is small and formed in relatively thin brass a good solid rim is a superior place to head space off of. So across the board argument that rimmed is better then rimless is not what I am trying to say. But in this scenario, specifically the 35 rem, yes rimmed is superior.

CW

[quickdtoo]

I've had zero head space problems with rimless rounds on any H&R, that includes the 35 Rem, 35 Whelen and 35 Whelen Improved, all H&Rs. The ONLY head space problem I've had to deal with on a Handi was on rimmed chamberings due to excessively deep rim cuts on my 45-70 Ultra and on Pete's 445 Supermag barrel, not much you can do to rimmed brass to work around that, fortunately modified extractors make for an easy fix. 

Tim

[cwlongshot]

I've had zero head space problems with rimless rounds on any H&R, that includes the 35 Rem, 35 Whelen and 35 Whelen Improved, all H&Rs. The ONLY head space problem I've had to deal with on a Handi was on rimmed chamberings due to excessively deep rim cuts on my 45-70 Ultra and on Pete's 445 Super Mag barrel, not much you can do to rimmed brass to work around that, fortunately modified extractors make for an easy fix. 
Tim

I understand this, but just your own experiences doesn't negate the fact that they exist and people are plagued with them.

The profile of the 35REM is such that it has a small graceful shoulder. The case is .405 at this point.  It's not well defined for a stable point to head space off. Yes it works, most of the time. The semi rimmed nature of the case helps more than most know.
The 35 Whelen has had its share of HS issues as well. Personally I have not experienced them either. But its a bit larger in diameter at the shoulder (.441) resulting in a better or larger surface for the shoulder. Hence a better point to HS off of.
The 35 Whelen Improved is even better as some or most of the body taper is removed, allowing for a sharper, more abrupt shoulder as well as a bit of case capacity. Again, the larger the shoulder, the less issue there is with HS from it.

As far as rimmed case chamber problems. A chamber that's cut too deeply has nothing to do with a rimmed or a rimless caliber. Especially within a conversation of HS as a too deep cut would result in a HS issue for a rimless case as well. Its still a problem.

CW

[stimpylu32]

Another round you may want to consider is the 358 GNR from Gary Reeder , its a 445 Super mag case necked down to .358 , it is said to run very close to the 35 Rem in speed and shootability .

http://www.reedercustomguns.com/information/GNR_cartridges.htm

stimpy

[jedman]

    Ololique,   I would have chimed in on this before but been hunting for the past week.
 Your idea of a shortened 45-70 necked to .358 is a round I have thought of doing for a couple years but has taken a back burner to many other projects that I have done instead.
  To my way of thinking , the least expensive way to do this in a rechambered handi would be,
 Shorten a standard .358 Norma mag sizing die to the point you get the OAL you want from the 45-70 case and trim off the excess length.  Once you perfect the case forming and have a case that will work for you get someone to use a standard .358 Norma reamer and rechamber your .357 barrel where the case headspaces on the shoulder and the rim + or - a few thousands change the ejector / extractor to a 45-70 and you pretty much have it.
  I did a shortened .340 Weatherby mag on a 45-70 case this same way and it is wonderful, I need to do one step down in necking the 45-70 case before going to 338 cal. to get 100 % case forming without crushing any cases.  You may or may not be able to go from .458 to .358 in one step ?
 I beleive a shortened 350 Remington mag die may also work but like the Norma design better because it has a slight more body taper and might be a better match.

  If you wanted to go with the shortened 35 Remington idea, the same ideas apply you can easily form that on a 30-40 Krag or a 303 British case if you want a rimmed case.  I have a rimmed wildcat done this same methood of a shortened standard caliber formed on a rimmed case with a shortened 7 X 64 cut down to 2.050 and formed on 30-40 brass thats like a 7 X 30 Waters on steroids.
No custom dies, no custom reamer required and case forming is easy.  Jed

[Ololique]

Thank you for all the replies...  I have officially scrapped this wildcat!

The good news is, I'm well along in the process of having this same idea made, but using 348 Win brass.  The capacity difference is enough to deal with hard to find brass.  Pacific Tool is doing my reamer, Wayne York is doing the rechamber and Hornady is doing the dies.  The whole thing should be complete in a couple of months.  The dies are the long lead item, 13-14 weeks. 

This will be done on my Handi, and once I've got some range time and data available, I'll post it here.

 

[cwlongshot]

Thank you for all the replies...  I have officially scrapped this wildcat!

The good news is, I'm well along in the process of having this same idea made, but using 348 Win brass.  The capacity difference is enough to deal with hard to find brass.  Pacific Tool is doing my reamer, Wayne York is doing the re-chamber and Hornady is doing the dies.  The whole thing should be complete in a couple of months.  The dies are the long lead item, 13-14 weeks. 

This will be done on my Handi, and once I've got some range time and data available, I'll post it here.

 

Be sure to post up with as much information and pictures as you have. Wildcats are alive and well.

CW