Antler restrictions

[bubba]

so you are just a small fella I see why you have to sit behind a screen.  Let me be as clear as I can. Until Bill tells me I can no tpost on here, I will post on any forum I choose.  If you do not like ny observations it posts, feel free to put me on ignore. As fas ar you wanting the thread to go the way you want, I dont see moderator next to your name either. I was a moderator on this forum for a long time.  So either live with it or report me or ignore me.  the choice is yours.

[Spanky]

Gettin' a little carried away with the trash talk ain't you Bubba. Let's try to be civil to each other fellas.



Spanky

[bubba]

I am not the one with the opinions about others posts and saying who can and cant post on their thread and what can be said like they own it. Last I checked, this is still a free country and my posts is still allowed.  Some people are just power hungry.  I asked some questions that I guess people didnt like, all legit. Because my questions poke holes in we need but we cant enforce too bad.    And by the looks of the poll a lot of people agree.

[mspaci]

I guess Bubba is a bully wanting his own way all the time, now who is the real internet tough guy here fellas. Go to his profile & you can see he is ignored by a few people. Wonder why, he coldnt be more of a jerk if he got paid for it. Mike

[DANNY-L]

What was the topic again?

[mspaci]

who is for and against and why, this is the second time this guy has given me a hard time over the years, is it just me, am I special or something? Or is he a pain to everyone? All I wanted to know is who is for & against antler restrictions & why. Honest answers based on experience or some type of evidence.  Let me be clear that I have not made up my mind about this but would like to know about opinions of it as this has been a topic of debate in the club I belong to. In other words for those that dont read well & make assumptions(this person will remain nameless) we are considering it on our club & I was wondering about opinions based on FACT or experience as to how it went. I think I stated this in the original thread & maybe I should have been more clear for those that again dont read the directions(& shall still remain nameless) Oh wait, who was it who flew off the handle & assumed it was all about him? Cant remember for the life of me, but it will come to me eventually.  I asked here becase its a NY based club & hew this is the Ny forum, makes sense right Boobo.

[dukkillr]

Some people find their self esteem from believing they are especially tough.  It is not something that can be reasoned with.  My experience has been that it is usually found in big talking, plus sized guys who would find themselves in the bottom half of any IQ test.  Some might call it a coping mechanism.  I suspect it's because they've gone through life with a, "Shut up or I'll punch you" type interaction.  Either way, best just to move on.

[DANNY-L]

I think unless you have hundreds of acres and those owning land that boarders yours are all in agreement with the AR then its pointless to try,sure some of the young bucks will make it but those going accross the line where people dont care as long as its got a 3" antler will be done in. My opinion there are some people that would shoot a young spike or crotchhorn just to say they killed a deer instead of trying to match wits with the big boys. Therefore I think it should be statewide,but I also think bow and muzzleloader should be antlerless only and do away with DMPs.

[bubba]

there are three guys ignoring me.  I could care less who ignores me. And the funny thing is twoof the three who have me on ignore have sent me pm's asking about H&R muzzleloaders and where to get upgrades for them, and I answered them.   I am against antler restrictions as it seems like a fantasy way to make big bucks. There are as many button horn bucks killed an dtagged with a dmp every year as there are spikes. No one has any answers as to how you regulate that. Those button bucks could be big racks in two or three years.  It is just a way to try to improve on nature for our own need to be like the guys on the hunting shows. I am also against mandatory blaze orange.  You keep mentioning me in every post mspaci. Who is obsessed ? Did I get under your skin that easy?  How am I being an internet bully?  You are the one telling others what they can and cant post, not me.   You are spending more time running me into the ground than you are monitoring your little thread here.  I guess having an opinion is bad real bad

[mspaci]

Danny, we have about 3000 acres & the bordering property of abot 1000 is practicing, so it might work. I think the problem we will have is with the older members who dont or wont try a new management idea. They still manage like the 60`s. Dckkillr I think you are right. Not only cant he understand the thread but cant spell either. Not sure where the mandatory orange comment is coming from, oh yeah, cant understand the thread. Ok, I will behave & ignore now, its way too easy. Anyone else see or try anything like this & how did it go.  Mike

[bubba]

and again you mention me.  I am thinking you are liking me.  and you will respond soon to be one ahead. so predictable.  But you are getting voring, so I am out now.  Post your next slam of me and feel like you win ok. 

[Spanky]

Like I said before. I have no problem at all with antler restrictions whether it be enforced at the club level or by state law. The club members who are self regulating antler restrictions are forward thinkers and will be rewarded down the road with better deer populations. Many years of testing has proven that some sort of antler restriction regulations have had a positive impact on deer herds regardless of region. As far as the continued debate on the taking of button bucks with DMP. It's a matter or self restraint for the most part. A button buck is a fawn. If people don't shoot fawns they won't be shooting the button bucks. A seasoned hunter can tell a fawn from a mature doe just by looking. One looks like a baby and one don't... simple as that. Don't shoot the one that looks like a baby.
On the other hand... some guys just don't care and follow the "if it's brown it's down" philosophy. That is a whole other topic though and doesn't follow the spirit of this thread so I won't go into it here.



Spanky

[DANNY-L]

Spanky your points on the fawns are very true,if people werent in a rush to shoot something and take the time to look at size it would eliminate the problem with button bucks being shot. But then there's the story "it looked bigger" if someone doesn't know the difference they shouldn't shoot.

[Leatherstocking]

Perhaps folks need to start thinking of it as a size limit change, not a "restriction". As with fish populations if it is determined that younger age classes need protection, the size limit gets increased. More of the younger age class male deer need to be protected. For the long term health of the deer population the "size limit" should be increased. It's just that a 3" antler has been the "limit" for so long, we are ingrained with it and consider that anything different is an infringement. Some guys I know still won't shoot does even though the doe to buck ratio is so out of whack. If we shoot an appropriate number of does and preserve some of those younger age class bucks, maybe we could get to the point where we have a normal, healthy deer herd in NY. Better ratio=more does bred at the same time= fawn drop at roughly the same time in spring= less coyote predation and in general better fawn survival. With ratios the way they are, many does do not get bred until very late, which = more fawns falling prey to coyotes as the fawn drop is scattered over a longer period and then poor fawn survival through the next winter because they are smaller. Bottom line is that antler restrictions are not just about bigger antlers.

[DANNY-L]

That explains is pretty good!

[k]

Perhaps folks need to start thinking of it as a size limit change, not a "restriction". As with fish populations if it is determined that younger age classes need protection, the size limit gets increased. More of the younger age class male deer need to be protected. For the long term health of the deer population the "size limit" should be increased. It's just that a 3" antler has been the "limit" for so long, we are ingrained with it and consider that anything different is an infringement. Some guys I know still won't shoot does even though the doe to buck ratio is so out of whack. If we shoot an appropriate number of does and preserve some of those younger age class bucks, maybe we could get to the point where we have a normal, healthy deer herd in NY. Better ratio=more does bred at the same time= fawn drop at roughly the same time in spring= less coyote predation and in general better fawn survival. With ratios the way they are, many does do not get bred until very late, which = more fawns falling prey to coyotes as the fawn drop is scattered over a longer period and then poor fawn survival through the next winter because they are smaller. Bottom line is that antler restrictions are not just about bigger antlers.

this has not explained anything to me so i have a few ?
where in NY do you hunt and notice an unhealthy herd and what do you base this opinion on? my very unscientific views of region 7 says we have plenty of deer and alot of bucks,one thing i've noticed this year is folks saying how they have seen alot of bucks this year.
i believe alot of yearling does come into heat during the later ruts how do you plan to manipulate that?
if the deer population is lower in your area than what the land will support don't you have a coyote problem and not a deer problem?
fish and deer are not the same, size restrictions on fish are so they can grow large enough to spawn.any 11/2YR old buck and even some button bucks can breed so how does a larger rack help the actual health of the herd?
i await your reply so maybe i can learn..........karl

[k]

I think unless you have hundreds of acres and those owning land that boarders yours are all in agreement with the AR then its pointless to try,sure some of the young bucks will make it but those going accross the line where people dont care as long as its got a 3" antler will be done in. My opinion there are some people that would shoot a young spike or crotchhorn just to say they killed a deer instead of trying to match wits with the big boys. Therefore I think it should be statewide,but I also think bow and muzzleloader should be antlerless only and do away with DMPs.

so danny why should bow and muzzleloader hunters only be allowed antlerless,is it because you don't hunt with them and don't want them to shoot YOUR bucks?or is there some valid reasons?
why do you care if someone else is happy shooting smaller bucks?aren't they leaving the big boys to you to match wits with?
me thinks if you were any good at matching wits with the big bucks you would be out there bagging them instead of worrying about how others like to hunt.........karl

[k]

i guess the silence to my questions is answer enough.happy hunting!.....karl

[DANNY-L]

I hunt all,bow,ml,handgun and rifle I get my meat with the bow always a yearling doe or 2 and if I cant tell if its a yearling or a big fawn then it walks,then I hunt for a rack the rest of the year and sometimes it works for me sometimes it dont. I have the chance for young bucks during bow and ml includeing young 4-8 pointers almost every year but I let them walk to muture. Anyone that calls themselves a hunter can get an uneducated young buck,but if you really want to hunt try a buck with a little wisdom.

[k]

still no answers to my questions........karl

[DANNY-L]

It's to cut down or eliminate dmp's,dmp's are what I think are taking the button bucks because there are some fools out there with dmp's so if its's brown or in some cases if they see something move they just shoot because they dont care what it is. Those same type of people that shoot the buttons are the same people that complain the next year that they dont see any bucks.

[Leatherstocking]

Sorry I didn't respond quickly enough Karl. I am not on here every day. I hunt areas in 3F, 3G (Dutchess County) and 4F (Otsego County). You seem to misunderstand me when I say the herd is unhealthy. I am not saying individual deer are unhealthy, but the population overall. However I will note that in PA (where they have antler restrictions) they have seen increased body weights on deer. That represents an improvement in health. There are "enough" deer in the areas I hunt. Fewer than there were 10-15 years ago, but at that time I believe there were too many, in biological terms they were above the carrying capacity. And our forests were suffering because of it. Although I would love seeing more deer when I hunt (and especially for my son who just started deer hunting this year), I must admit that we probably have a good number of deer now, in balance with the available habitat. In my opinion we just got spoiled in the 90's when there was a deer behind every tree. Now you have to hunt a little harder. So be it.

As for the yearling does coming into heat in the later part of the year, are you referring to a doe born that spring (that is a fawn, and very unlikely to be bred its first fall). Many people use the term yearling incorrectly referring to deer born that year. A yearling deer is one that is 1 1/2 years old. Most yearling does will come into heat in the fall and get bred. And I am not proposing that we manipulate anything. It's all about sound management, doing the best we can to manage toward a sustainable, natural population. Not about big racks or total manipulation. Just sound management based on valid biological principles. To your coyote question, I don't blame a low deer population solely on coyotes. If coyotes were such a big factor there wouldn't be a turkey around for miles. They get plenty of young turkeys in the spring (and perhaps a fair number of adults), but we have lots of turkeys around. Habitat is the main factor in sustaining any wild animal population. And lastly, it is not the larger rack that helps the deer herd. I'll say it one more time - antler restrictions are not just about producing big racks!

[DANNY-L]

We also lose alot of deer within the area's that get really heavy snowfall especially some of the big boys that had run themselves ragged during the rut since they outlawed the feeding of deer. There was one year when it was legal to feed them that I had a huge muture 9 point come in to feed the day after hunting season,he stayed there eating for 18 hours only leaving for about 15 minutes at a time but then coming back. When he first came in he was so poor you could see the bones sticking out all over his body. Once he got a good meal he left and returned atleast twice a day until late march. The ext year he returned,we never did find out where he lived and kept hid during hunting season,and where I live its bordered by about 200 acres of stateland the rest is my brothers farm and if someone had gotten him everyone would have heard about it,he likely died of old age. So not feeding them has taken just as much tole on them as the predators imo.

[charles p]

Let the bucks walk a few years then let the kids take a few.  Take all the does you can eat.  Amazing what this does for the herd.

[bobg]

  The antler restrictions have been kicked around for a while now. Lets hear what the deer kill has been like so far this year.
   I have seen very few hunters out.   

[sunshinegirl]

My name is Rachel, and for the last 5 years, I have been living in Arizona. Before that I hunted the state forests of New York for deer over 50 years. Everyone seems to banter about this antler stuff, but I haven't heard the real reasons for so few nice racked deer taken. I get the N.Y. Sportsman's paper, and do see a few nice one, but for a long time now, the deer population has dwindled from seeing 10 to 20 deer a day, when I was a teenager, to seeing maybe a tail for a week's outing. Area's I used to hunt now are almost barren of deer. The state forests are held hostage from being logged by state laws, Fires are a no no, and the state gets a constant flood to toxins mixed in the rain from the mid-west. I am sure they are taken in by deer eating, or drinking the water. Ever notice those warning signs around streams against drinking the water?? If they are bad for us, then heaven help the wildlife.  Here in Az they have controlled burns every fall & winter to open up the forest, and burn off old rotting timber on the forest floors, so major problems are less of a issue. They got wise to true forest management, so why not New York's protectors.  Manage your land, and the deer will be giants again.

[Leatherstocking]

Some good points there sunshine girl. But in an era of dwindling state budgets and resources, I think we as hunters need to step up and manage the deer population as hunters/conservationists. Perhaps take the view Teddy Roosevelt would take about our responsibility to manage wildlife resources for future generations. And not leave it up to the agencies.

[DANNY-L]

I like the idea of controlled fires to open up and regenerate the woods,but as normal what sounds like a good idea ny wont listen.

[FLNT4EVR]

Here's my opinion on this whole thing.People who want antler restrictions should practice what they preach.   BUT !   Don't impose what you want on the rest of us. Antlers make terrible stew.

[bubba]

Some good points there sunshine girl. But in an era of dwindling state budgets and resources, I think we as hunters need to step up and manage the deer population as hunters/conservationists. Perhaps take the view Teddy Roosevelt would take about our responsibility to manage wildlife resources for future generations. And not leave it up to the agencies.

you do realize teddy roosevelt ws actually preservationist who wanted hunting only for the elite?  Come to think of it, I guess that is what antler restrictions would do.