Author Topic: Buffalo Classic 45-70 light hammer strikes (Read 3375 times)

32455 · « **on:** November 22, 2010, 08:01:52 AM »

Just bought this rifle. A friend gave me 4 Remington shells and I went out in back yard and shot gun. All four hits in a 3" circle at 50 yds. Then went to local store to get more shells. All they had were Winchester 300 gr jhp. I tried 3 shells and had light primer strikes and the shells did not fire. Tried them again and still did not fire. Anyone have this problem or suggestions on what might be wrong Thanks in advance. Gary

petemi · « **Reply #1 on:** November 22, 2010, 09:35:27 AM »

I 'd first clean that frame well and make sure it's not sluggish. If scoped, I'd remove the offset hammer spur. Perhaps you need to check firing pin protrusion or a stronger spring....see the FAQs. If it don't fire, it aint a rifle, but a club. You'll get the help here you need to make it work.

Pete

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** November 22, 2010, 01:10:29 PM »

See Ignition problems by dangerranger on page 2.

Tim

torpedoman · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2010, 01:18:19 PM »

step one. measure the rim thickness of both ammos. After rebuilding and replacing everything in my frame it was the EJECTOR allowing the bullets to seat to deep. measure the barrel with one that fired loaded place a straight edge across the barrel and measure the headspace do the same with the new ones you should find your problem there. you can epoxy a shim between the extractor and the barrel or buy more of the ammo that worked ,to solve the problem.

Spanky · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2010, 05:01:23 PM »

Are the pin strikes on the Remington ammo deeper than the strikes on the Winchester ammo? If they are take a look at rim thickness like Torpedo said.
Is it a new rifle? If not... is the barrel factory fitted?
Are the pin strikes off center on the primer? check the fired rounds and the duds and compare the pin strikes.
Go back to the basics and eliminate problems one at a time.
If all else fails you can get ahold of the factory and send it in for repair.

Spanky

32455 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 23, 2010, 02:20:43 PM »

I went out and fired the rifle again today. I tried the rounds that failed to fire the other day. Today they went 'BOOM'. I made sure I pulled the trigger all the way through. Thanks again for all the information. Gary

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** November 25, 2010, 02:13:37 AM »

Gary,
The guys provided you with good advice. CK the pin protrusion,Grind/file hammer face to increase. Then CK the HS by seating a bullet as Tim recommended.

Something EVERY HANDI owner should do is upgrade your springs to the Extra Power Wolff springs. Most if not all ignition related issues GO AWAY!!! If you have a bunch they are available in five packs!!!

Here is the old style: http://www.brownells.com/1/1/16669-h-r-topper-hammer-spring-hammer-spring-5-pak-wolff.html

Here is the new: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=565785

CW

Slufoot · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2010, 02:34:14 AM »

Hey CW, Thanks for the links to the Wolf Springs!

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2010, 04:52:35 AM »

Here's the link to the Wollf springs from the FAQs, they're much cheaper direct from Wolff, they sell the five pack shipped for less than Midway's price without shipping!

You'll need the single coil for any H&R with a transfer bar.

Tim

http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=2&mID=27

Slufoot · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2010, 03:47:04 PM »

Thanks Tim, I just order a 5 pack of the single coil springs from Wolf.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

tcoggins · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2010, 12:06:37 PM »

I am also having some issues with my BC 45-70.

I am having misfires, due to the transfer bar not being in the correct place. When it mis-fires, and I release the trigger, it does not click, indicating that the transfer bar is already down. When it does fire, when I release the trigger, it clicks when the transfer bar falls out of position.

I hope that this does not need to go back to H&R for repair. Is this a situation where the wolff springs may take care of the problem? I have not had the receiver apart yet, is there something to look for in there that needs to be tweaked?

For what it's worth, I have had H&R receivers apart for trigger jobs, and am familiar with what's going on in there.

Thanks for the input.

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2010, 03:04:04 PM »

H&R has an improved version of the transfer bar now, it would be worth sending it in to get one installed. Failure to pull the trigger all the way to the rear can cause the t-bar to fall prematurely, but so can a defective t-bar or t-bar spring or too light trigger pull weight, H&R's min trigger weight is about 3½lbs, any lighter and the risk of the problem you're experiencing increases. The Wolff spring may not help, but it's a worthwhile change IMO due to the too common weak hammer springs.

Tim

tcoggins · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2010, 04:30:11 PM »

Tim - Thanks for the response. Something I just discovered is, when the rifle is warm, I don't have the issues, only when it is cold (I was shooting outside earlier today, in Northern Michigan). However, this evening, after the rifle had been inside for a few hours, I put a snap cap in the chamber, and fired it a couple dozen times, with no misfires (the transfer bar was always in place when the hammer fell). Could there be some grease in there from the factory that gets stiff when it is cold, and doesn't allow the parts to move as they should?

Thanks.

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2010, 04:42:21 PM »

Easy enough to find out, clean it good, I only use dry lube on the trigger/hammer group except the sear which I use Superlube.

Tim

tcoggins · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2010, 04:47:24 PM »

Thanks Tim.

When I get some spare time (ha ha), I'll pull that apart and clean everything real well. Probably polish up the trigger a bit as well (I am curently at about 5-1/2 to 6 pounds).

I'll get some dry lube to use as well.

Thanks.
Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2010, 04:51:34 AM »

Until you pull it down why not get the nozzle of a spray cleaner in there and give it a flush?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2010, 05:03:13 AM »

Be careful with spray solvents, some will soften the plastic trigger guard which will ruin it, I don't remember which ones, but it has happened before.

Tim

tcoggins · « **Reply #17 on:** February 20, 2011, 09:52:28 AM »

Well - It's been a while since I have taken the 45-70 out to shoot (too cold in Northern MI, and too busy working). I have cleaned the inner workings of the receiver real well, and am still getting FTF's, due to the transfer bar falling out of position. I think it's time to send it in. I plan on calling H&R tomorrow, explaining the issue, and hopefully they will have a fix for me.

If I do end up sending it in, is there a preferred method (UPS vs. USPS vs. FEDEX)? I have never had to ship a firearm, and would like this to be as painless as possible.

Thanks again for all the help.

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2011, 10:03:49 AM »

Before you send it you may want to review my recent posts on this very thing.
(Id post the link here but......Im 'puter challenged; maybe Tim can?)

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2011, 10:08:02 AM »

Here's the link gcrank is referring to:

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,227831.msg1099262522.html#msg1099262522

Here's a previous discussion on shipping a firearm for repair or accessory barrels, and H&R's instructions for repair.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,226492.msg1099251784.html#msg1099251784

http://www.hr1871.com/support/repairs.asp

tcoggins · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2011, 10:32:17 AM »

gcrank - Yes - I had read your posts about your transfer bar issues. However, when I fire my rifle, there is clearance between the hammer and the frame, when the transfer bar stays in place. Every time I get a FTF, the transfer bar has fallen out of position, and there is no primer strike at all.

Thank you for bringing that up though.

Tim - Thanks for the shipping info

I'll contact H&R tomorrow and try to get them to pay for the shipping for the repair.

Thanks,

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2011, 10:39:14 AM »

I hope you have read the most recent 'installment(s)'. It sounds to me like you have the issue I addressed.
For instance, if your gun fires it doesnt matter if there is a gap between the hammer nose and frame, the firing pin did its job and the pressure of the cartridge in backthrust on the case head and primer can back the firing pin up enough to hold the hammer clear a bit.
If, on the FTF, the t-bar is not being held in place by the trigger extension you will find it beneath the f-pin.

tcoggins · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2011, 12:57:55 PM »

gcrank - Just read your most recent installment, and while I didn't think that was the problem, I thought I would take a closer look. When I lower the hammer by hand, with the action open and the trigger all the way back, there is a gap between the hammer face and the receiver (no back pressure from the case pushing on the hammer).

Then a comment you made in the other thread, that the trigger extension must hold the transfer bar right after the sear trips. I started looking at how the trigger extension was acting while I lowered the hammer by hand, and I noticed some side movement.

I pulled the trigger guard out of the receiver, and there was a lot of side play in that trigger extension (about .080"). I checked my other Handi, and there was very little side movement of the trigger extension. It may be possible that the trigger extension was moving to the side enough to lose contact with the transfer bar. I made a couple plastic shims to tighten that up. Hoping that this solves my issue.

Thanks for the help.

Tim

tcoggins · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2011, 11:28:36 AM »

Well - My fix did not work (I was convinced it would work). I called the factory, and it is going to go back. Tired of dealing with it. If I had a range in my back yard, I might keep it here and futz with it myself.

I figure it will probably be cheaper (in ammo costs), to let them fix it.

That being said, it is still a very cool rifle, and I don't hold any ill will towards H&R, and will be buying more in the future.

Maybe while this gun is at the factiory, I'll nose around for the elusive .357 magnum.

Thanks for all the help in trying to get this fixed.

Tim

torpedoman · « **Reply #24 on:** February 21, 2011, 01:15:59 PM »

H&R ,NEF 45-70 chambers are quiet frequently cut too deep for some reason. this causes the light strikes and misfires.After shimming the extractor a bit mine is greatly improved but the extractor should not be used to set headspace in my humble opinion.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 21, 2011, 01:45:56 PM »

Too true!
My references state that a firing pin protrusion of .050 to .060 is proper, yet FWIW, my H&Rs run less than this. I prefer to deepen the pin strike by .005 incrementally until consistent ignition or the .060 is reached (that is, IF f-pin protrusion is the problem). If this means it works at .060, fine. Now, if the particular barrel has too deep a rim cut and needs .065, or more, you could do it, BUT, what happens if you (or some after you) fits another barrel that does not have that issue and perforates the primer with a high pressure load? Havent I read about someone blowing off a trigger guard?
In that case a better solution might be to face the barrel breech by the hypothetical .005 and shim it back to fit the action.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** February 21, 2011, 02:08:30 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on February 21, 2011, 01:45:56 PM

Havent I read about someone blowing off a trigger guard?

The only trigger guards blown off were caused by a barrel obstruction or over pressure situations on old style ejector barrels. I've had a few perforated primers on H&Rs, other than the primer itself being pierced, the only telltale was a little wisp of smoke coming from the standing breech, one was on my 6x45 with small rifle primers and the other was on my 357Maxi with factory Dan Wesson ammo on an SB1 frame, no damage that was visible, in fact on the 357Maxi, I didn't notice the primers until later when I put the ammo away.

Tim

tcoggins · « **Reply #27 on:** February 22, 2011, 10:17:07 AM »

Well - Maybe it's not going back.

I went back through the threads and examined all the possible culprits, and tried to forget about what I was convinced was the problem.

In doing so, I chambered a round in the barrel, and measured from the end of the case to the breech face. The case was .005" into the breech, and the firing pin protrusion was at .045". I then ground off .005" from the hammer face and re-assembled. The firing pin protrusion was then at .050" (which I thought was a bit small). I fired 10 primed cases at home, with 100% ignition.

Then I went to the range and fired 10 live rounds. I had one mis-fire out of 10.

I then took another .005" off the hammer face. Firing pin protrusion is now at .055", which , according to gcrank, is within spec. Hoping to get to the range and fire of more rounds with no misfires.

Had I not been so stubborn and looked at everything that you guys were telling me, this probably would have been taken care of long ago.

Thank you for all the help in solving this. I think I am finally closing in on it.

Thanks.

Tim

gcrank1 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2011, 11:47:02 AM »

Thats GREAT!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** February 22, 2011, 12:52:59 PM »

Glad ya got it whipped, FTFs can be real frustrating! $:-\$ FWIW, my 260 Rem has .063" pin protrusion, works fine on good primers, so far Fed 210 and Rem 9½ are those that are the most reliable, cup height and thickness may play a role in that.

Tim

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php