Handi .357max???

[Vic49]

Got a trade in the works, one of my .44mag handi barrels for a .357. Looking at converting it to max. I'm wanting a "longer range" rifle for here in Indiana. Will i gain much in shots over 150 as compared to the same shot with a .44 mag??? I am shooting Hornady Leverrevolutions in the .44.  Had a monster at 150yds. the other day and was really wishing for something to reach out and touch him.

[cwlongshot]

IMHO even tho I much prefer the maxi as a caliber it offers nothing on the 44mag as far as range.
  Its simply no going fast enough to apply and BC to its bullets that's gonna work out better than your old 44. YES you can say that a longer bullet is better in flight and should penetrate deeper yada yada yada.  Again, don't get me wrong, I have a maxi and sold my 44. I MUCH prefer the Maxi. But if I need a caliber to reach out past 125yards or so, its simply more gun than a Maxi or Mag or even my beloved hot loaded 45Colt or 454. To me the Maxi is a niche caliber, it simply fits what I need it to do. Kill deer, humanely, at ranges UNDER 100yards.

CW

[Lon371]

 I don't know about either at 150 yards. I do know my Maxi is a lot more accurate than my boys .44. That said, I have not worked on loads for the .44. I am not steady enough to pull off a great shot a 150 yds.

 I do commend you on not taking a shot on a big buck, especially since you were unsure about the gun. Loads of folks probably would have been way to tempted to pass it up.

 Lonny

[Vic49]

I don't know about either at 150 yards. I do know my Maxi is a lot more accurate than my boys .44. That said, I have not worked on loads for the .44. I am not steady enough to pull off a great shot a 150 yds.

 I do commend you on not taking a shot on a big buck, especially since you were unsure about the gun. Loads of folks probably would have been way to tempted to pass it up.

 Lonny

I can't decide, one site says 150-200yd. rifle and then you guys that actually have them say no.
This is my 44th Indiana deer season so i learned long ago to not take shots i am not comfortable with.  He'll be back!!!

[Dinny]

I get great accuracy at 200yds with my Maxi. Given more time to practice, a good rest and great optics, I would have no problem shooting a deer that far with my Maxi loads. Deer aren't that hard to kill...just ask an archer. Holdover is a cinch with my DOA 600 reticle, I already have all the dots ranged.

Thanks, Dinny

[Vic49]

Hey Dinny,
    Which DOA do you have?
With the rest on my tree stand I can do the 200yd. shots, must be the Screamin Eagle blood in me!!!

[Dinny]

Hey Dinny,
    Which DOA do you have?
With the rest on my tree stand I can do the 200yd. shots, must be the Screamin Eagle blood in me!!!

Vic,
  I have the Bushnell Trophy 3-9x40 with the DOA 600 reticle. There are 4 dots vertically stacked under the center set of crosshairs. For me,the center crosshairs are "on" at 75yds, the first dot is not used, the second dot is "on" at 150yds, the third dot is not used and the fourth dot is "on" at 200yds. It took me 100rds to define those holdovers.

All 101st ABN DIV units have a "greeting of the day" that is given we saluting an officer. The 320th Field Artillery's saying was "Balls of the Eagle!", your father must have been Reconnaissance, they said, "Eyes of the Eagle!"

Thanks, Dinny

[Vic49]

Thanx Dinny, let me know what you have in Max components

[Old Syko]

It's all about knowing your gun and how it handles.  Dinny has spent the time to learn where his gun shoots rather than take the word of a ballistics chart.  Personally I'm no longer a Max fan but myself and my son have put many thousand rounds downrange with a 357 Herrett which is only slightly superior to the max.  The catch is we're using a 10" barrel on a Contender frame and no optics.  I assure you this round will work well to 200 meters or more.  I shot handgun silhouette with this thing for a few years in the 80s and 90s and had no problem taking down the rams at 200.  My son and myself have both taken deer and coyotes out to the ranges you're interested in reaching.  For my use the higher velocities of the 357 are a much better choice than the 44 if you intend to stretch the distance a bit. 

[indyeyedoc]

I'm not sure what CWlongshot is talking about.  A 357 Maximum is easily a 200 yard round as is the .454 Casull from a rifle (260grs @ 2250 fps or 240 grs @ 2375fps).  Both will provide more energy at 200 yds than the 44 Mag provides at 100 yds.  When sighted in 3 inches high at 100 they are about 3 inches low at 200.  There really is no comparison, they are far better (by better I mean flatter trajectory and high energy) than a 44 MAG for all ranges.  Many of the .357 Max users on here will attest to that. 

[cwlongshot]

 For me, these pistol calibers fired from a longer barrel are a short to medium range proposition. Sure we gain some good velocity and energy figures from the longer barrels. But most of the bullets have the ballistic profile near a ball. NOT very efficient at retaining velocity or energy over long distances. It has always been my proposition that we owe it to the game we harvest to use enough gun. If you want to hunt game at longer distances use a bigger gun. I didn't say it would not work, I said for me its a niche caliber to humanely kill deer at ranges under 100 yards. Now I would stretch that to about 125 yards if I had a very good shot at a calm, undisturbed animal. I have and will continue to allow animals to walk if I cannot humanely harvest them.

I am constantly amazed at the way some people look at things in the past twenty or so years that handgun hunting has come more into vogue. Calibers like the 375/444 marlin fired from a 14" contender are considered powerful enough for the largest mammals walking the earth. Yet on paper they only barely surpass my 375 Marlin in ballistics. A round considered "a close range caliber, designed for thin skinned, med sized big game at moderate ranges".

I too have shot silhouette and tipping over a 50# chunk of steel and hammering it off its base is the differences between a 357 Maximum and a hot loaded 44/45. My 250 and 300gr long colt loads, fired from a 7.5 vented or a 10" barrel NV barrel had pronounced more clout on those rams than did the 180Gr 357 Maximums. (The 158s had even less clout!) I needed to hit the ram mid-line or above and fairly centered left and right to reliably topple them. Now my Maximum was more accurate and easier to shoot from less recoil, than my 7.5” Ruger or my 10“ contender barrel. But my long colt would reliably topple the ram even with a leg hit and slam them off the base with a solid body hit. Ya see, I too have been to this dance a little while. 

Basically what I am talking about is that from what I know about the pistol calibers we have spoken about here, we have a umber of very good medium sized big game calibers that humanely harvest medium sized big game animals at short to moderate ranges. If the need or intent is to shoot at longer ranges, or at bigger critters, simply put, bring a bigger gun.

If you guys care to push this to 200 yards. It can work, know your gun, practice at these ranges and choose your shots carefully. Avoid nervous or pushed animals. As I have said, I do not shoot that far with these calibers. I have more respect for the critters I hunt.

CW

[Old Syko]

CW I commend you on your restraint and knowing your own limitations.  If 100 to 125 yards is as far as you feel you can shoot accurately then yes by all means that should be your limit but there are those of us who aren't so limited.  Over the years I've heard my share of "use a bigger hammer" excuses and the only one that makes any sense is if the round you're using doesn't have enough stuff in it's drawers to get the job done at a specific distance.  In the case of 357 vs 44 or 45 at 200 yards it just is not the case.  No extra amount of retained velocity or energy is going to make up for poor placement on animals in the field as you well know, so why should I punish myself with more extreme recoil and higher expense when it isn't necessary?  I've spent too much time and money learning that more isn't always better (unless it is more practice) to change now.  After all, like Dinny said earlier, "deer aren't that hard to kill".

In your silhouette scenario you were using the 45 to make up for poor placement which works on steel but not on flesh.  Maybe with a little less gun, placement would be better.

Just so you know, here in Indiana we have restrictions that at this time make the use of pistol calibers in rifles a necessity while we work on change.  Otherwise most here would likely be using something else altogether.

[Vic49]

Got the reamer and barrel today so good bad or in between I am going to be shootin a .357max

[cwlongshot]

Ol' Syko,
I feel you have misread me.
 Now it is only my opinion, but it's mirrored my many others who know and abide by the ballistics of these cartridges. It IS my own self imposed limitations but they are based on ballistics not accuracy. The overall power of the maximum to HUMANELY harvest big game animals.
Now I know full well accuracy is a huge part of the equation. It's nearly as much where you put the bullet as the power of the bullet. But that power is where my argument is based. Accuracy is not a littlest part of it for me. Just for your knowledge. I carry a Master NRA ranking in pistol. The last year I shot all pistol events I ranked in the top one hundred in the country. The top twenty-five in Connecticut. I have been shooting competitively in bullsete, action IDPA IPSC and Sillouttte for almost thirty years. I can hit what I shoot at.

I am aware of some of the restrictions put upon centerfire hunting in Indiana. Its intended to LIMIT the range and power that cartridge can shoot  So you need to limit your shots based on the power of the firearm you are using. This is a moral responsibility. If you have a different moral compass than mine and it tells you that this caliber is sufficient to do what you are asking. When i total up this caliber the number I reach is 125 max. If your addition is different well we disagree. Again I'm just trying to make hunters be aware of the responsibility we have to humanely dispatch the animals we hunt. That's all.

As for the recoil concerns, why do you think the maximum came to be?? It will do almost what the 44 will do with less recoil. But the energy it's bullets are able to retain are secondary to the 44s. The main BC number is .200 for a hunting bullet. But with out horsepower what you get is limited ranges. This is the case with the pistol calibers. This is what I am talking about.

[Old Syko]

I too can hit what I shoot at and obviously from longer distances than some and not nearly as long as others.  I claim no higher or lower moral ground than anyone else, nor will I list paper credentials in an attempt to make myself seem  more believable.  What I do know to be fact due to my own experiences is that I have never recovered a slug regardless of range fired and all exit wounds have been much larger than their opposing entry wounds and I have never had an animal go more than a few feet after being hit.  How much more humane can you get?  I guess I should believe what someone put down on paper as ballistic fact rather than my own lying eyes.      This round as with all others is limited more by the shooter than any other variable.

Vic, ream that thing out and determine your own limits.  I'm willing to bet you'll be pleased, but you will likely have to load your own to get full benefit.  Let us know how things turn out and give us your opinion of this round's capabilities.

[cwlongshot]

OK fine,
 Mr. Syko, now you pretend to know my hunting career and that my sole argument is based in paper ballistic charts... Geesh man!!! I am fine going back and fourth and I will stop learning the day I die. But your now basing arguments on information you do not have. I can see are not going to agree here. That's fine, we don't need to agree, this isn't about us, more importantly I don't like the tone its becoming.

Vic,
 You created this thread to see others opinions on the applicable ranges of the 357 max and as it compared to the 44 mag. Paper ballistics CAN tell you allot but they are not the "gospel". The maxi is a very good deer caliber. IMHO just as good the 44 mag 45 Colt and 454. Each has its following, kinda like icecream flavors. (I also prefer the 357 maxi and 45Long Colt) But again IMHO, NONE OF THEM is a long range caliber. Long range to me is anything over 100-125 Yards. To others long range is a different figure. To still others it doesn't matter.    I apologise for this distraction to your post.

The one thing I do completely agree with Old Syko is his last statement. 

Vic, ream that thing out and determine your own limits.  I'm willing to bet you'll be pleased, but you will likely have to load your own to get full benefit.  Let us know how things turn out and give us your opinion of this rounds capabilities.

Happy Holidays to all,

CW

 

[phatgemi]

How would the comparasion be if the .44 mag were to be reamed to 445 super? Just curious.

[quickdtoo]

How would the comparasion be if the .44 mag were to be reamed to 445 super? Just curious.

You'll find 445 SM ballistics in this previous thread, I don't have any idea what the 44mag would do with the same 265gr FTX, but do know the 225gr LE ammo runs ~1750fps in my 22" Handi, the 225gr FTX has a terrible BC of just .150, not much better than a round ball as CW pointed out.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,220391.msg1099203747.html#msg1099203747

http://www.hornady.com/store/44-Cal-.430-225-gr-FTX/

Trajectory for Custom .43 225 gr FTX at 1750 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.15   0.15   0.15   0.15   0.15
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1770   1770   1770   1770
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet   Humidity: 70 Percent   Pressure: 29.53 in/Hg
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   1750.0   1529.8   1.75   -0.18   1.53   23430.58   0.000000000
50   1528.9   1167.6   1.53   -1.55   3.12   0.0   0.091756423
100   1337.1   893.1   1.34   -6.85   4.0   0.0   0.196790709
150   1182.6   698.6   1.18   -17.02   0.0   0.0   0.316334643
200   1071.3   573.3   1.07   -33.4   -10.21   0.0   0.449974107
250   993.9   493.5   0.99   -57.34   -27.98   0.0   0.595602869
300   934.7   436.4   0.93   -90.07   -54.54   0.0   0.751404942

[indyeyedoc]

The beauty of physics is that opinions don't matter.  There is only fact and non-fact.  The FACT is that the 357 Max is adequate for whitetails to 200 yards.  Period.  To say it is not is also to say that a 357 Magnum handgun is inadequate for deer at point blank range.  From a 8 in pistol the 357 Magnum puts a 180 gr pill at 1200 fps or so (Winchester Supreme ammo) at the muzzle, much less than the 1600 fps the MAX is moving at 200 yards.  So someone should let the .357 magnum handgunners out there know that they are immoral and disrespectful to their quarry.  What BS.  To limit yourself to 100 yards with it is just arbitrary nonsense.

[cwlongshot]

The beauty of physics is that opinions don't matter.  There is only fact and non-fact.  The FACT is that the 357 Max is adequate for whitetails to 200 yards.  Period.  To say it is not is also to say that a 357 Magnum handgun is inadequate for deer at point blank range.  From a 8 in pistol the 357 Magnum puts a 180 gr pill at 1200 fps or so (Winchester Supreme ammo) at the muzzle, much less than the 1600 fps the MAX is moving at 200 yards.  So someone should let the .357 magnum hand gunners out there know that they are immoral and disrespectful to their quarry.  What BS.  To limit yourself to 100 yards with it is just arbitrary nonsense.

WOW,
It must be a full moon or something. The sarcastic remarks are a flyin'. BTW Nice to meet you Indyeyedoc.

Indyeyedoc,
 Lets see if we can muddle thru this post... I agree ballistics or paper Numbers don't lie. While they do not tell the whole story, they do provide a good basis for comparison.

My personal morals withstanding, I would have to agree with your statement. "the 357 Max is adequate for whitetails to 200 yards" Mere adequacy isn't enough for me. Not for this. Paper numbers, what I consider a minimum for hunting whitetails and similar sized big game is 1000 FT pounds of energy at impact. The loads come close, but do not meet my minimum at this range.
 Plug-in some numbers into Hornady's ballistic calculator lets see what we get... I used Hornady'ss calc because the two most popular bullets are the 180 XTP and 180 SSP both made by Hornady.
http://www.hornady.com/cgi-bin/ball10.cgi?firearm=Rifle&desc=357+max&wght=180&coef=.230&vel=2100&sight=1.5&temp=50&barom=29.53&zero=200&wspd=0&calcbutton=Calculate

This is a 180Gr XTP bullet fired at 2100fps . This bullets BC is .230, the barometric pressure is just shy of 30, the temp is 50 degrees, there is no wind, humidity is 78% and the range is 200 yards. The velocity at 200 is not 1600, its 1480, the energy is 875.

Change the numbers to the 180 SSP and the numbers do get better: All variables are the same, humidity, Barometer, temp etc. What changes is the bullets BC its .248 more streamlined. Again the same 2100fps. Out at 200 the velocity drops to just over 1500 and the energy is 922.

ALL these numbers even the 200 yard numbers surpass the 357Mag when fired form a vented barrel revolver with an average 4" barrel. (Same weight bullet) Now I have also shot a couple whitetails with a 357 mag form my 8" Whitetailer. I don't use the 180's as they are too heavy for reliable performance. I liked the 140, but the 158's are fine too. Its "adequate" for short range hunting. IF you place your bullets carefully. Its NOT preferred. I learned its limitations and I gave it up and took to the 45Colt hot loaded.

Your figures are a bit high. The 357mag is good for almost 1100fps from a 8" revolver barrel with a 180 gr bullet. I have chronographed most all these loads and I know. Even Winchester lists the velocity of this load at 1180, but does not specify a barrel or its length.

So I offer that based on these numbers YES the 357 is sub performing when fired from a short revolver barrel. Will it work, of coarse, but so would my favorite ball peen hammer.

Arbitrary nonsense, pure BS. To me its a self imposed limitation. Formed out of mistakes made and a learned respect for the critters we hunt. Maybe to you its something else.
That's fine too, unlike you I do not pretend to know you. Al tho sometimes these forums cannot convey the true nature or meanings of ones written word. I would love to be able to sit down and talk over a pot of coffee had we the logistic chance.

Happy Holidays to all,
 CW