Author Topic: The "Surprise" Buck! (Read 940 times)

huntsman · « **on:** December 11, 2003, 06:53:32 AM »

Okay, I'm trying my first image post ever. I hope it works. Thanks for the site reference Ricky P.

This was my buck harvested 12-7 in Gonzales County, Texas. For those of you not intimately familiar with South Texas, Gonzales County is NOT in the "Golden Triangle" of big-buck country where you see so many monster bucks killed every year. There the ranches are thousands of acres in size and highly managed for mature bucks. It also costs "mature" bucks ($) to hunt them (several thousand $, minimum).

This buck was taken on a 70-acre low-fence pasture surrounded by modest ranches, most from 100-300 acres in size. He was aged at 3 1/2 years old by tooth examination. We don't supplemental feed, although meal and salt for cattle is also available for deer. This buck is direct result of two things: great genetics (past bucks have had forked tines, long tines, multiple brow tines) and "let 'em walk" philosophy. We don't shoot yearling bucks (not even spikes) or 2 1/2 year old bucks. This is what they can turn into by age 3 1/2.

The buck is 16 points, 18 1/2" inside spread, 174 gross B&C (unofficial yet). 'Nuff said. Here is the picture (hopefully): http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/536235/buck71203.JPG

SingleShotShorty · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2003, 09:27:34 AM »

That's really a great Buck, I supose he is allready at the Taxidermist if not he should be. Congradulations.

jhm · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2003, 12:19:01 PM »

Nice job on that one, it will make any wall look good.

JIM

Bob/FLA · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2003, 04:12:55 PM »

Congrats on HUNTING this deer!

pa ridge-runner · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2003, 01:12:15 AM »

Nice buck,Good mangement philosophy too.If you keep up with your deer managment ,good things like that happen!

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2003, 07:09:51 AM »

Quote

you keep up with your deer managment ,good things like that happen!

Since he hunts on ONLY 70 acres there is really no management involved. Even if the people on that 70 acres shoot only trophy bucks and let everything else walk it has no real impact on the deer herd which calls a far larger area home. ONLY if folks on the surrounding few thousand acres are not hunting at all or are following the same practices will it really matter in the long run.

GB

huntsman · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2003, 11:51:31 AM »

GB is absolutely right. We are only part of the managment picture. Luckily, our neighbors either don't hunt (1 place) or are practicing the same kind of "let it walk" philosophy (2 other places that I know of). But it is important that we do our part or we wouldn't enjoy the benefits. It is a vast improvement over the days when hunters everywhere shot the first buck they saw every year.

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2003, 12:06:56 PM »

Yup if the folks on a large enough piece of land let the young bucks get old then trophy quality will go up.

GB

pa ridge-runner · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2003, 03:59:59 AM »

:grin: Yup GB that is what they (game comm.) are trying to do here in Pa.On a very large scale.They introduced new game management areas and an antler restriction law etc.but the big problem I see is the fact that alot of deer can't be hunted at all because of large private land areas.The deer are being drastically depleted on public land.This creates areas of too many deer and areas that are hunted out.This year I talked to alot of different hunters.Some saw all kinds of deer(Private land).Some didnt see a deer all week.(Public land).So,Is this the way it goes now?Whats next?
I hunted public land on opening day and it took me till 4pm to see my first deer.I talked with another guy here that owns 20 acres of private land,and he saw herds of deer.The deer are not as dumb as some people think.They KNOW where it is safe!!

Dave in WV · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2003, 05:24:16 AM »

Nice buck Huntsman. :-) Dave

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2003, 06:44:28 AM »

The problem I see with the model used now in PA and many other areas is their basic assumptions are flawed. What needs to be done is the does need to be hammered hard to keep the buck to doe ratio as close to the naturally occuring 1:1 or at least 1:2 as possible and to keep the overall herd size within the carrying capacity of the land. And to let YOUNG bucks walk to grow older.

PA isn't doing this tho. They really make it hard to jump thru all the hoops to get all the possible doe tags and even if all of them are obtained that's way less than should be issued for the current buck to doe ratios in most of the state. The buck rules don't really address age of the buck but make a false and flaw assumption that young bucks will be spikes and older bucks will have 8 or more points. This just ain't the way it is in the real world.

Let's take the farm of a friend of mine who lives in PA and owns 200 acres of farm land surrounded by huge blocks of more farm and wooded land and some strip mined land. The herd is way out of balance as he sees perhaps 10-12 does per buck sighting. From the numbers he sees on a daily basis and the crop damage they do when he plants corn I feel the population is way too high also. He has seen some really nice trophy deer especially early before season as they grow their racks. For sure the genetics aren't so bad that trophy deer can't be produced if give the age to mature. BUT he also is seeing a lot of what on most TX ranches would be considered cull bucks. Bucks at or near maturity which have racks with less than 8 points or in the case of many TX ranches a cull is a mature buck with less than 10 points as they are breeding for 10 pointers.

He took a really nice buck this season. His best to date with rifle. BUT it is a seven point and barely that as the one brow tine it had was kinda small. I believe the buck to be either 2.5 or 3.5 years of age. It wasn't aged by teeth wear but even that has problems as the majority of biologist trained in that method in the past 15 years or so have been taught incorrectly. What might this deer have looked like in another couple years? Dunno. Since it was killed we'll never know. But it had good mass and good width and really nice height. BUT the lack of brow tines is a trait he is seeing on the farm. I think it is because bucks with that genetic predisposition are doing too much of the breeding of the overly large doe herd rather than the true trophy potential bucks he has also seen.

I am convinced that when you force hunters to kill bucks based on either the number of points, spread width or main beam length you are breeding for bad genetics in your herd. Why? Well you are ignoring the most important ingredient in big trophy deer and that is age. You are shooting your best yound bucks at age 2.5 years because they have the requisite number of points or spread or beam length without giving them a chance to mature and gain the mass and height they could. You are leaving in the herd to become the older and heavier and thus most likely to breed the bucks with the least desireable characteristics. That is those with fewer than whatever number of points are selected or whatever beam length or spread is selected.

Unless you train hunters to recognize the age structure of the local buck population and to refrain from shooting bucks less than 3.5 or better still 4.5 years age if you want large trophy deer then I contend you'd be better off letting them shoot whatever buck makes them happy to pull the trigger on. This is natural selection and the most resourceful bucks will be the survivors and do the breeding. This not antler size is what is in the long term best interest of the herd IF that's REALLY what is of interest to us.

In case you've not guessed yet I'm a stauch opponent of QDM as it is practiced in most places to day. High fenced high dollar ranches in TX and MI being the primary exceptions I'm aware of.

GB

pa ridge-runner · « **Reply #11 on:** December 14, 2003, 04:16:23 AM »

Hi GB and thanks for your in-depth input on a very difficult topic.
You say that Pa should "hammer"the antlerless deer to put the buck-doe ratio more in line.For years Pa claimed to have a deer herd size of 2 million.Last year alone hunters took 352,000 antlerless deer.Yes,some were button bucks.Our law makers allow us to take any "antlerless" deer.That is any deer with less than 3 inch spikes.Bucks that are larger than 3 inch spikes, up to bucks with less than 3 points on one side are protected.(In some counties in western pa its 4 points to one side).It is my guess that we will not take as many does as last year.I think the game commission would like a herd size of about 1 million deer,half as many as before.
The main reason for this desired drop in deer herd size is complaint pressure from insurance companys(deer road kill vehicle damage),lumber companies,local municipalities,etc.Also through studies conducted by Pa game comm.that claim that our forests are being depleted of natural plant life wild flowers etc.They built high fenced in areas that were clear cut,and studied the growth of the forest without deer encroachment.There are areas that have a definate brows line.They promise us healthier deer and larger bucks,we will see!
For years a Pa hunters could take any buck with 3" points or larger.Thus resulting in damn few larger bucks.My best huntin buddy has taken more than 8 spikers in his years of hunting(35) and only one 8 point.This was common for years because our deer herd went unchecked and unbalanced.Now,Mr Alt claims to have the right approach.Only time will tell! :?