Jeff Cooper on the "454 Magnum"

[JayCee]

I just happened to be thumbing through a couple of ancient books by Jeff Cooper, and noticed something quite interesting.  In The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning (1964), Jeff devoted a whole chapter to the “454 Magnum”, which had just been developed by Dick Casull.  Jeff waxes eloquent: “The performance of this gun is absolutely phenomenal.  It does things that have to be seen to be believed.”  Jeff then describes the performance of a 230 grain bullet “at over 2000 feet per second” on a 10 quart can of water, comparing it with the destructive power of a 300 magnum fired from the same distance.  Col. Cooper’s take on the 454 as a hunting tool: “On game, the killing power is no less phenomenal.  Several one shot kills have been made on deer, one around 100 yards, and all bullets passed completely through with extremely large exit holes.”

In Cooper on Handguns (1974), the Colonel does a one-eighty, declaring “As soon as the .44 Magnum was accepted, various experimenters decided that anything that could be done with a .44 could be done better with a .45.  This may be true, but one wonders what is to be accomplished thereby.  Very violent ballistics are claimed for the several “big .45s”, but any practical edge they may have over the .44 Magnum seems small, and they remain oddities, difficult to obtain and maintain, and obscure of purpose.” 

I wonder what soured the good Colonel on the 454?  Or did he just forget what he had written ten years earlier?  Go figure…

[MePlat]

Whether you believe it or not people have the right to change their opinions as more information comes along.  The 454 was actually developed before 1964.  In the 50's or so by Dick Casull.  Elmer Keith gave a write up on one  very early  on  I believe that was a built on a 44 Mag Blackhawk frame.
In any event as anyone gains more experience and knowlege many of what one thought at earlier times may prove to be wrong,  different, not completely whole in nature etc.. 
Have you never changed your opinion on something?  I know I have and probabaly will again moving forward in life as I gain more knowlege and experience. 
I've been wrong a lot just ask my wife she knows everything there is to know about anything there is to know anything about.
This is not any proof that Cooper was any less than a very knowlegeable man in case this is where this is leading.

[cwlongshot]

Not that uncommon from the venerable Mr. Cooper... 

Years ago I read his articles in the back of Guns and Ammo (I think that was the mag) as soon as it came out. The more I read the more I saw discrepancies and flip flops in his writings. Something that was pure nectar of life in one issue was soon popooed as dirty dish water six months to a year or so later.

It's possible he simply forgot, and or simply changed his mind. But even so, he is a writer, that's what he does for a living for crying out loud! Shame on him for not researching what he himself wrote!! 

Sure opinions change, but fundamentals do not. Someone who pronounces something as "Phenomenal" or "Beyond Compare" doesn't find it garbage and not worth even naming any time later. You may say what you though was phenomenal was later discovered to be something less than that. But that's not how he wrote it, he just discounted it as less value than even a mentionable... If your 100% behind something and proclaim it as the best thing since sliced bread. But later on it has the flavor of a fart in church and no one likes it or uses it. You come out and say you where wrong or defend your opinion. You don't just make a flip flop like you never commented or even herd of the item. A person doing so looses all credibility to me. For this reason, I don't hold much value in the things I read from the man. I feel  like I'm speaking about some of our politicians here....

CW

[MePlat]

"If your 100% behind something and proclaim it as the best thing since sliced bread. But later on it has the flavor of a fart in church and no one likes it or uses it. You come out and say you where wrong or defend your opinion. You don't just make a flip flop like you never commented or even herd of the item. A person doing so looses all credibility to me. For this reason, I don't hold much value in the things I read from the man. I feel  like I'm speaking about some of our politicians here...."

Very few people will admit they are wrong.  He was just like the vast majority of writers but there is no use in starting a writers bashing.
Even Elmer Keith is touted as a "handgun hunter" but he wasn't.  He used a handgun in killing big game but preferred a rifle over the handgun as he said in print many time.
There are many now that has killed much more big game with a handgun than him.
But I am a diehard Keith fan.  I just keep in mind he was human and as human he had human flaws just like us writing on this forum.
Writer are human thus plagued with stupidity at times.  No need to be high and mighty.

[cwlongshot]

"If your 100% behind something and proclaim it as the best thing since sliced bread. But later on it has the flavor of a fart in church and no one likes it or uses it. You come out and say you where wrong or defend your opinion. You don't just make a flip flop like you never commented or even herd of the item. A person doing so looses all credibility to me. For this reason, I don't hold much value in the things I read from the man. I feel  like I'm speaking about some of our politicians here...."

Very few people will admit they are wrong.  He was just like the vast majority of writers but there is no use in starting a writers bashing.
Even Elmer Keith is touted as a "handgun hunter" but he wasn't.  He used a handgun in killing big game but preferred a rifle over the handgun as he said in print many time.
There are many now that has killed much more big game with a handgun than him.
But I am a die-hard Keith fan.  I just keep in mind he was human and as human he had human flaws just like us writing on this forum.
Writer are human thus plagued with stupidity at times.  No need to be high and mighty.

I like Keith too, I don't consider my self high and mighty. But momma taught me rite and wrong.  I'm fairly certain yours did too! Admitting your wrong doesn't make anyone less of a man, only assures others that they too are human. 

Of coarse they are human, we are all human. There is rite and wrong. People empower other people because of what they say and do, when someone does this kind of thing in my mind they loose that power. That's all I am saying. I'm not bashing anyone. I didn't write that to bash anyone, I simply stated I don't hold much of what he says as worthwhile as he has no accountability to me.

CW

[MePlat]

I did not mean that as a pin point on you about being high and mighty but as a broad statement about you, me and all the rest on here.
Still to discount everything the man said because he he did do some flip flops is still harsh.
Even the biggest liar,  biggest dummy,  biggest loud-mouth will still come up with some things that have some substance to them.  It is up to the listener  or reader to have enough intellegence to decern the wheat from the chaff.

[cwlongshot]

Even the biggest liar,  biggest dummy,  biggest loud-mouth will still come up with some things that have some substance to them.  It is up to the listener  or reader to have enough intellegence to decern the wheat from the chaff.

True enough, true enough...

CW

[ole 5 hole group]

Jeff Cooper wasn’t your ordinary handgunner by any means.  He was an innovator/educator relative to firearms and has been recognized worldwide for his efforts.  He was a no BS type of a guy, which is something I really appreciate.  To dismiss his teachings & ideas as they progressed over the years is not something that I’ll ever do and I was around when he began sharing his ideas.

His initial take on the 454 was correct but as time went on some people found the 454 to be nothing but a 45 Colt Magnum.  Linebaugh pretty much put that to rest with his 5-shot version of the 45 Colt, which Ross wrote about back in the day.

What the knowledgably individual writes about today may change next year or 10 years from now when it has had a chance to be examined thoroughly over the days/years.  Just take a look at how we arrived at the 45ACP for a defensive sidearm and then look at how/why it lost favor and is now coming back into vogue.

If you care to read just a little bit about Jeff - start here:    http://www.frfrogspad.com/cooper.htm

[JayCee]

Oops!  This was not intended to be a "bash Jeff Cooper" thread.  I respect Jeff Cooper and have read a number of his books and articles, and I've always found him to be insightful and literate.  In my opinion, Cooper on Handguns is one of the best reference books ever on handguns, and is just as relevant today as it was when it was written over 35 years ago.  However, I was intrigued by Cooper's complete about face on the issue of the "45 magnum".  It's almost as though he was taking a swipe at Dick Casull and Jack Fulmer with his "various experimenters" remark, and I just wondered if there was anything more to the story.

[myronman3]

couldnt stand cooper.    i do not miss his rambling b.s..   from what i gathered he thought quite highly of himself and not of his fellow man.   

[SHOOTALL]

Some writers are good at writing what readers at the time are willing to pay to read ( buy magazines) . As readers change so do "good" ( profitable) writers. Magazines and talk radio both suffer from this !

[Lloyd Smale]

another way to take that is that he wasnt changing his mind on the 454 just stating how good the 44mag really is.

[Hank08]

I knew Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper and while they both were men who always said what they thought or felt at the time, Elmer could say it in a more acceptable way and was a more likable person because of that.  In 1964 anyone seeing a .454 in action had to be impressed but by 1974 after 10 yrs.
more experience with the .44 mag I think Jeff had found that was all the power that most shooters needed. I don't remember what the date was that Mickey Fowler and, I think, Bill Wilson went to Africa and killed Cape Buffalo with the .44 mag. Super Blackhawk but that was something to make one think that the .44 mag was enough gun.
H08

[mcwoodduck]

Col Cooper changed courses so much you would have thought he was a navy man trying to evade U Boats in the Atlantic.
His scout rifle concept was moving the scope forward so stripper clips could be used and said a removable mag was silly and in needed as stripper clips work and weigh less.  When his scout rifle was introduced it was with not one but two detachable mags.  He touted the advantages of a short action and 308 based cases and even designed the 376 Styer that was the fore runner of the short mag cases.
He was the father of the 10mm and hated the 40 S&W that fits into more frames and is 90% of what the 10 is.
No matter what he thought was good, later he came to accept only 22lr, 30-06, 375H&H, 45 ACP, and 12ga as both hunting a self defense.
Guess he did not like having his ideas changed or not greatly accepted and went with what are the most popular.

[Bigeasy]

Enough about Jeff Cooper.....

Now how about Jack O'Connor and that silly .270......

Larry

[SHOOTALL]

Enough about Jeff Cooper.....

Now how about Jack O'Connor and that silly .270......

Larry

A few years ago I read an article where it was stated he hunted alot with a custon 30-06 go figure ? But then he had a nitch and maxed it out 

[mcwoodduck]

Enough about Jeff Cooper.....

Now how about Jack O'Connor and that silly .270......

Larry

I am not a fan.
Both of my Uncles have 270's and they make a mess out of deer.
I have never thrown away so much blood shot deer meat as I do when they connect.

[Ken ONeill]

To each his own. I have hunted only with handguns for some years, but when I still used rifles, I used many different calibers around the world. I consider the .270 Win. to be one of the very best, on game it is adequate for.

[45-70.gov]

''IT  IS A BRILLIANT SOLUTION TO A NON-EXISTING PROBLEM''

thats the best thing he ever  said

did  he say it about the  454
i thought  this about  my  500 S&W....but it aint for sale

[SHOOTALL]

Enough about Jeff Cooper.....

Now how about Jack O'Connor and that silly .270......

Larry

I am not a fan.
Both of my Uncles have 270's and they make a mess out of deer.
I have never thrown away so much blood shot deer meat as I do when they connect.

Shot placement and knowing the critters insides might help some 

[mcwoodduck]

They like the 130 grain bullets and no matter where you hit them in the shoulder area, it turns it to Jelly.  A couple misplaced hits in the rear quarter have had us tossing whole hams out.
If you use the 150 grain bullets there is no difference between it and 30-06 other than the bullet is slightly longer.  .277 vs .308  and they like the speed
I use a 308 win with big heavy bullets 180 grain and the hole goes in and usually pops out and you can eat up to the hole.
But that is why we have 350 or more bullets and case combinations out there for big game.  30-06 case with a .277 130 -150  grain bullets or how about an 06 case with a .358 caliber 250 grain bullet, what about a ...... and it can go on and on.
And maybe the 270 comes into its own as a western cartridge for sheep and goats where the smaller bullet slows over 300+ yards and does its magic on mule deer, antelope, goats, and sheep. But so far under 200 yards I am not impressed with the 270 over other options.

[SHOOTALL]

If you hit just behind the shoulder and just below the back straps you lose little meat and they drop nicely.

[mcwoodduck]

Will you please give shooting and aiming lessons to Uncles Steve and Ralph?   

[SHOOTALL]

Your job ! I have my own family to deal with !

[Lloyd Smale]

Im not a fan of the 270 but have shot a few deer with it and if meat damage is what your guageing your opinion on a 270 will do no more damage then a 2506 280 or 3006 with hits in the same place. Put even a 250 or 243 into a shoulder and you will loose that shoulder meat. You want meat damage try shooting one in the shoulder with a 3030. The thin skinned bullets they use in a 3030 will do more damage to a deer then about anything.

Enough about Jeff Cooper.....

Now how about Jack O'Connor and that silly .270......

Larry

I am not a fan.
Both of my Uncles have 270's and they make a mess out of deer.
I have never thrown away so much blood shot deer meat as I do when they connect.

[mcwoodduck]

Lloyd,
Like I said,
So far I have had to toss a bunch of meat with the 270 and not so with the 308 or even my 06 (shot one doe with a Garand and will not do that again) as well as friends from school (family has a farm and house about 4 hours south of where I went to college so at times different people went with me) with a variety of stuff from 44 handgun to 45-70 and so far mothing turns venison into goo better than a 270.
The 44 handgun did make a mess out of my friends nose though,  He is a real little guy 5'3" and about 120 pounds soaking wet.  He was in a tree stand and turned around to shoot the deer single handed and the recoil had the barrel hit him square in the nose.  I think we could read the Ruger warning for a minute or two.
Have not skinned out any deer shot with a 243 yet.
I think it may have more to do with me and my friends shooting heavy bullets for the calbier than anything else.
Did see a deer shot with a 257 Weatherby and there was bery little jellification of the meat where he hit it.  I thought that little lazer was going to turn half the deer to goo.
I have seen pigs shot with a 308, 338, and 7 mag and the wounds were similar neat hole in and larger hole out.
I was suprised at shooting small bullets out of my 223 at Javilina and thought they would goo up the meat but really did not.
Maybe I need to see more deer shot with a 270 with heavier bullets to make a full assesment but so far my 308 with 165 to 180 grain bullets is working well  for deer and pigs and I have no real plans to change.   Well if I were to get a do all western rifle.  Maybe a 7mm Mag launching 160 grain bullets.  But it is hard to beat my 338 win mag for larger game so my guess is the 7mm mag will not apear any time soon.

[mk454]

the 44 mag has evolved from what it was in the 60's and at that time with mostly 250 grain and under loads without all the 300+ grain loads that are present now it's a different animal.  the real beauty of the 454 is it's trajectory and the big differences b/w it and the .44 are really realized when you've made a committment to shooting over 100 yards and on animals that are very very large, the biggest moose and bears on up.  that said, i've seen several really really great shots hate the caliber over time b/c they just couldn't master it at extended ranges, perhaps that happened here.  otherwise it's just an inaccurate handful of recoil.  with the right loads though it is a destructive force that has put many of my rifles to shame when used with top loads, or barnes loads.  ammo companies have come with so many bullets specially designed for that caliber but ignored the .44.  when you ramp it up to max loads, bullets failed.  now though, there's sooooo many good bullets available that handle higher velocities and heavy hard casts 300 grains and over with large meplats that it's a different animal than it was 40 years ago or so.  interestingly enough i did some calculations on area of striking on a bullet and compared the biggest meplat .44 mag hardcasts with the bigguns.  the big 44's have 70% the surface area of the very very top largest .500 linebaugh loads. and that's the largest meplat bullet available in the 500L.  get the average from a few bullet companies and it's over 90% the striking area.  they'll all penetrate end to end on all north american game so bigger bullet weight is of little consequence.  the largest .454 meplat bullets have 88% the surface area of the largest 500 linebaugh loads and 97% of the largest 475 linebaugh loads. the biggest .44 loads i've seen are 88% the striking area of a .475 linebaugh.  narrows the gap substantially and makes the big boys seem much much less necessary imho.  this was not the case in the 60"s

[ole 5 hole group]

I think if you shot a large animal, such as an elk, bison or brown bear you might notice the animal reacts much more to the 500 Linebaugh than the 454.  There’s really no comparison between the killing power of the 500 Linebaugh and the 454 – the 454 is bringing up the rear when you compare it to the 475Linebaugh, 500JRH, 500 Smith and the 500 Linebaugh.  Diameter has its advantages.  There’s a reason that “stopping rifles” start with a 4 and the very reliable 375 H&H is not among the “stoppers”.  The 375 H&H can be used as a stopper but not nearly as effectively as a 505 Jeffery or the 505 Gibbs.  

The 454 Casull is a fine cartridge but the 5-shot 45’s are right on its heels and they both will take anything on our continent but they aren’t in the same league as a 500 Linebaugh.

The 44 magnum surely doesn’t have any flies on it and its’ performance in the game fields has proven it to be an exceptional cartridge and it’s right on the heels of the 5-shot 45’s.

I’ve got a couple revolvers that will cover most bases except the 500 Linebaugh – I went with the 500 Linebaugh Maximum instead.  The picture shows a couple I have:

Top to bottom:
500L Max, 500S&W, 500JRH, 475L, 454Casull, 45 Colt FA97, 45 Colt Model 25-2, 44 Redhawk.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill have to agree. theres alot more to cartrige effectiveness then can be expressed in math numbers. Ive shot enough game with all of them to know that a bigger bullet puts more of a thump on game especialy when the game gets in the 500lb plus catagory. Personaly i dont see much differnce in the 45s compared to 44s but a much bigger differnce when you go down to a 41 or up to a 475 and especially the 500s. The 475 with most normal bullets and loads will outpenetrate the 500 but on most game that i will ever have the opertunity to shoot the 500 surely has enough penetration and puts a bigger hit on the animal. I will have to admit though that the biggest animals ive shot have been buffalo and none went over 1500lbs and in my opinion the 44 mag with a good heavy lfn would have killed any of them just as dead as they were using the 475 and 500. As a matter of fact the biggest one i shot was with a 4 5/8s super blackhawk and it was actually the fastest kill ive seen on a buffalo. Go figure. It just goes to show you that bullet placement means as much as bullet size and that every animal dies different and even my opinion on what thumps more doesnt allways stand up. 

I think if you shot a large animal, such as an elk, bison or brown bear you might notice the animal reacts much more to the 500 Linebaugh than the 454.  There’s really no comparison between the killing power of the 500 Linebaugh and the 454 – the 454 is bringing up the rear when you compare it to the 475Linebaugh, 500JRH, 500 Smith and the 500 Linebaugh.  Diameter has its advantages.  There’s a reason that “stopping rifles” start with a 4 and the very reliable 375 H&H is not among the “stoppers”.  The 375 H&H can be used as a stopper but not nearly as effectively as a 505 Jeffery or the 505 Gibbs.  

The 454 Casull is a fine cartridge but the 5-shot 45’s are right on its heels and they both will take anything on our continent but they aren’t in the same league as a 500 Linebaugh.

The 44 magnum surely doesn’t have any flies on it and its’ performance in the game fields has proven it to be an exceptional cartridge and it’s right on the heels of the 5-shot 45’s.

I’ve got a couple revolvers that will cover most bases except the 500 Linebaugh – I went with the 500 Linebaugh Maximum instead.  The picture shows a couple I have:

Top to bottom:
500L Max, 500S&W, 500JRH, 475L, 454Casull, 45 Colt FA97, 45 Colt Model 25-2, 44 Redhawk.

[ole 5 hole group]

The 44 Magnum carried the water for most of the big boys for lots of years and in the hands of a pisterlo it always got the job done right the 1st time.  The one thing that has always impressed me with the 44 Mag is that it normally will shoot great right out of the box with most loads you want to feed it at or under 270 grains.  Once people started going 300 grains plus, then you had to push them a little bit but they still grouped very well once you found the sweet spot.

People used to laugh at us shooting the 44 Mag when the 357 Mag & 357 Max was king, as they thought we were using the “big bore” to make up for some deficiency such a being a poor shot or having a small whatever – my, how times have changed but some things just seem to never die.

Now that we have moved on from Col. Cooper, the 270 guy (what’s his name?) maybe we should hash over why an individual would want to build and then take a 50 Alaskan revolver into the field after anything under 1,200 pounds of mean.  I can understand & appreciate the 45/70 revolver but that 50 Alaskan revolver just doesn’t seem like it can be tamed by a mere mortal at full throttle.