300 yards: 4x Scope

[Stuart C.]

Here's the situation:
So you're a fairly competent shooter.
You take your hunting rifle which has only a 4x scope, and just for kicks, you shoot 300 yard targets.
Caliber is 7x57, or 270.
From the bench. Good rest. A little breeze.
Your eyesight is good.
The crosshairs are Fine.

What kind of group size can be expected, honestly?
Also -
What's the minimum scope power you would want when hunting shots will be 200+ yards, that you personally are comfortable with, at a minimum?

Thanks!

[PowPow]

interesting topic.
I make my own targets.
Last year I tried a 4x scope on a 30-06 handi.
Scope had a medium thickness crosshair.
I had a difficult sighting it in because of the reticle was thicker than the lines on the grid target I was shooting at.

Later I sighted in a 5 MOA red dot on a 30-30, but used a target that was a small center dot (that I could not see at 4x) surrounded by a 5 MOA square.
By framing the dot in the square, I was able to sight that in to within an inch of zero.

So I would say with some creative target making, you could come close to what you would get with a high powered scope for that ammo.
Say the 4x had a duplex reticle and the tip-to-tip  was 10 MOA, I would make a target with an 8 or 9 MOA diamond to sight at.

Minimum Power:
Deer shoulder at 200-400 yards, 7x
Coyote shoulder at 150-200 yards, 12x
Squirrel or crow at 100-150 yards, 18x

[Thebear_78]

the trick to shooting good groups with low power scopes at long ranges is to use a target more suited to that style of shooting.  I have always found that shooting for the center of a  6" black or orange bullseye.  I have found it fairly easy to shoot good groups with my 2.5x scout scopes at 300+ yards with this setup.   Its much easier to shoot for the center of a 6" bull than it is to tryto aim at one of the grid style targets.   Even shooting for the center of the paper is better than a grid target

[Bearcat 74]

Bigger circles are the key with the lower powers like thebear_78 said.  I have killed coyotes well over 200yds with a scope set on 4x and a crow at 352yds with a 12x. 

[Graybeard]

I personally don't care much for shooting at round targets at long range and especially not with minimal magnification. I long ago learned I shot better groups using a square target dot than a round one. I prefer the square to be just barely larger than my cross hairs appear at the range. It takes some experimentation but once you figure it out you'll find it really makes shooting good groups easier or does for me.

Having just a sliver of the sqaure on each side of the cross hair means that if you are out of alignment but just a tiny bit you will see no black and only white there.

Using such a systsem with my TC Contender with 14" 7-30 Waters barrel I shot several groups ranging from a best of 1.5" to a worst of 2.5" at 250 yards with a Leupold 2X scope. If you match the target size to cross hair size magnification is of less importance than most think.

If you can shoot an inch group at 100 yards with the set up there is no reason you can't shoot 2.5" to 3.5" at 300 with it. I only shot the 7-30 one day at 300 yards and that was on a metal target but the group was around 3" that day again with a 2x scope.

[williamlayton]

These days--I need all the help I can get just to see the target---we aint talkin bout hittin it.
Blessings

[Brithunter]

Another way it to use the reticle like the Hi-Power target shooters use their irons. Put the reticle at the bottome of the dot or circle to it makes a lollipop on a stick and you will have a constant aiming point. Works virtually the same way as GB's method but you can use any size spot or circle that you can see clearly.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with graybeard. I do much better with square targets. It makes easier to insure your not canting the crosshairs.

[drdougrx]

Funny....been shoot'n since 1980 and I never used a square.....never even occured to me....think I'll giv'r a try!

[Glanceblamm]

+3 on the square targets

Sometimes they are multiple squares and are always black with the centers always being white.

Great contrast and easy to "true up" the crosshair as said.

[Stuart C.]

Great input; thanks.  Two things.

- I used a circular target and set it like a lollipop just as Brit H said. I was fairly comfortable with the view and position of the target relative to the fine crosshairs.  Solid rest.  Right hand on trigger, left hand back on the rear bag, NO hold or strap whatsoever on the gun from trigger forward, it just rested on the rest freely.  Mediocre results to say the least.  Maybe it's just me.

- You read about the famous riflemen of yore and they are shooting animals at 300+ yards with relatively VERY LOW powered (and outdated by todays standards) optics.  Again, maybe it's me, but these guys are hiking up inclines, slamming into a sitting position and shooting off their knees and dropping mulies 300 yards away.

So, 1.) I guess I need more long distance practice and will definately try the square targets, but 2.) when I'm hunting, and probably feeling the cold with no dead rest, and not getting the three and a half inch groups I expected during practice - I just don't think 4x is anywhere near enough.  Even with fine crosshairs, the point on the target the I can actually SEE is probably a good two sq inches of space on the paper.

Thanks again.

[Stuart C.]

PS
These are my own loads. 
140 grain Nosler with 39 grains of 4064, Winchester primer.

[Catfish]

The last deer I killed was at 289 yrds. lazered, and did it with a 209-50 Encore with a 2 1/2 X scope. I had no trouble with point of aim, but was consirned about drop, but guessed just right. I should say that is a shot I would not have taken had the deer not already been hit.

[diggler1833]

At 300 yards I can typically hit a 12" bullseye 4 out of 5 times (if not all 5) with open sights as this is part of our qualification on the known distance course of fire.  The rifle is a M16A2/A4 (now M4, but with an RCO on top) and with crappy M855 ammo.  Bear in mind that this is position shooting, fired sitting and not over a rest.  With a match service rifle, match ammo, shooting jacket and everything else known to man, my hits were genreally within about a 2-3MOA dispersion area with open sights.  There are some who are significantly better than I as well.

With decent ammo, a decent shooting rifle, and a shooter who is competent I'm guessing 4-5".  With a good rig, hanloaded ammo, and a good shooter, MOA or better.

Generally the shooter will be the limiting factor.

[Swampman]

Didn't Jack O'Connor use a 4X scope on his .270s?

He seemed to do pretty well.

Todays 4X scopes are so much better than they were back then.

[mcwoodduck]

I have two rifles with 4X scopes on them.
The first is a 22 mag and does not reach 300 yards.
The second is a 375H&H and at the range, we have a few 20" square plates at 200 yards.  Standing I can hit the 20" gong plates every time (the bench really hurts with the 375H&H).  I am zeroed to 200 with the rifle and remember  2.5" bench groups at 200 and figure a 5-6" at 300 yards off hand.
We shoot standard clay birds with it at 200 yards on the range hill side.  off hand if it is not a hit (I would like to lie and tell you I can hit a clay bird every shot off hand but I can't) it is with in an inch or two.  but those are mostly due to me, flintching or squeezing the whole rifle than the trigger.
Still minute of deer, bear, pig, or elk at 200 yards with a 300 grain bullet.
With a 270 or similar you should be 3 to 4X your 100 yard group.  So, if you are shooting 1" at 100 you should be less than 4" at 300.
Magnifaction should have nothing to do with it.  You are going to aim at the same spot on the target, be it round or square.
Notice I say should be.  wind is going to be your worst enemy and as long as it is a steady breeze you should be ok.  Gusts are going to really open up that group.
The only think I can tell you is the more you try it the better you will be come at it.  Shooting long distance is not hard it just takes a range that long and a pile of ammo and some targets.
Sight in the rifle at 100, adjust it to 200 yards and rezero.  then look at a ballistics chart for 300 and you will be suprised the drop from 200 to 300 is about 5 to 6" for most hunting rounds.  They all start in the 2600 to 3000 FPS.  The rise from 100 to 200 is a few inches.  easier to just aim like at 200 yards and either hit 2" high at 100 and gues +5" on an animal or target at 300 than try to guess +7 or 8" at 300 with a rifle sighted in at 100 yards.
Just my $.02.

[squirrellluck]

93 mauser 7x57 2.5x weaver german post and crosshair minute of deer out to 325 yards. Never tried shooting 300 yards for groups

[Brithunter]

Didn't Jack O'Connor use a 4X scope on his .270s?

He seemed to do pretty well.

Todays 4X scopes are so much better than they were back then.

Whilst I have not read much of O'Connors writings and it actaully shocks me to say this 

I have to agree in the main with Swampman on this.

The lens coatings have improved an awful lot in the last 25 years but glass quality and lens design is still important. I have a few 4x scopes of various makes and vintages. Also have a Weaver steel tubed K3W and the optics are surprisingly good.

[351 power]

i like to use the squares too. usually a 3" post it on a loose leaf backing. poa is the crosshair at the bottom center of the post it