antler restrictions and button bucks

[bubba]

If antler restrictions are imposed what is your feelings on button bucks being taken and a dmp placed on them?  I personally feel that it should be made illegal to shoot a button buck.  If the law states 3 points on one side or a certain size spread, how can a button buck be excluded?  A person will make just as many mistakes thinking they saw 3 points and there were two. Legally they will be breaking the law.  But of course that will rarely be reported, it will be covered up, as will shooting a button buck.  Since this will continue to happen, I do no tfeel that antler restrictions of any type can ever be truly implemented and enforced. If you want bucks to mature, you can not kill them a nig number in their first summer.   As many are killed as there are spikes and crotches.  It will be just another law than will be of no use. Opinions please

[woodchukhntr]

I don't have a DMP this year and will only shoot at deer that I can verify as bucks.  This means no button bucks for me.  I think that a point restriction is nothing but BS.  Either it has horns or it does not is the only test that makes sense.  Many hunters do not use a scope or use binoculars.  They can see if a deer has horns, but will not be able to count points.  Also, it might not be possible for them to distinguish a button buck from a doe, so allow the buttons on the DMP.

[possume]

make it illegal to kill a button lol how are you suppossed to know if its a button from 100 yards come on maybe make it count toward a buck but all that would do is get more deer killed because you know people out there will not check them in if it would count as a buck and just leave it and kill another one and that would be wasted meat horns dont taste good if you want antler restrictions for bigger deer it dont work let the big boys walk to bread why dont you just say for the next three years you cant shoot anything under a 6 and let the big ones breed to carry on the genes thats how you will get the big deer you outta thankfull for people taking the small ones and basket racks it keeps them from breading   

[mspaci]

Although I dont shoot  button bucks, I have seen it happen to decent hunters that thought it was a doe. I guess you would have to decide what is considered an antlered deer & an antlerless deer & live with the consiquences.   I dont think there is a perfect answer to this question, although I wish there was? I also think that the DEC takes button bucks into consideration when issuing the amount of dmp`s so they have the right amount of does taken. I sure hope guys wouldnt cover stuff up, they wouldnt hunt with me again if they did.  I can count points a long way out & if I couldnt I would have to let a buck walk if there was restrictions. Mike

[bubba]

I am not saying it can thappen by mistake, but too many gys see a deer and blast. The old if it is brown it is down, then ground shrinkage sets in.  Ther eis this thing I call hunter insanity. A lot of hunters go insane from october until January.  I guess my point is antler restrictions seems a lot like  aantasy to enforce to me.  Just think though if the 20 thou or so buttons taken every year were protected, how many mature deer you would have in 3 or 4 years. Seems to me if you are going to restrict start when they are born not after the first year if they are lucky enough to make it.   

[possume]

i too are guilty of shooting the first thing i see and on ml opening day i say if its brown its down to ensure i have meat but you have to remember more bucks doesnt mean better bucks if you let more bucks walk then you need to take the xtra numbers of does to ensure theres that many less born the next year to keep buck doe ratio and the poppulation down in tn they dropped the buck bag limmit down from 4 to 3 after just a couple years they had to increase the doe limit from one a day to three a day in lots of countys to make up for the less bucks being taken because not enough deer was taken it got all messed up if you want bigger deer bigger bucks must be let go to do the breeding and shoot the smaller ones i see what your saying if you restricted the antlers you would see bigger deer but then the bucks would have to fight harder to breed and they would run the does wich can lead to bad pregnancy from the stress and thousands would die from rutting alone wich defeats the purposse because thats deer nobody had a shot at

[hillbill]

antler restrictions work if your lookin for bigger buks.ive seen it here on my own 500 acre property.when we quit killin every buk that walked by, we started seeing bigger buks.however,does that make it fair to rule out meat hunters?meat hunting is what origanally started the sport.ive evolved from a trophy hunter to a meat hunter.to each his own

[possume]

ok you seen bigger bucks but did it help the tropies out or just bigger deer being seen and did you shoot any cull deer ofcourse you will see bigger deer you havent shot any small ones but was the quality any better you have to stop the cull deer from breeding to get better qaulity deer you want the big ones with good genetics to breed try shooting basket racks and letting the big ones go for a few years and youll see big results

[Spanky]

If a hunter can't tell the difference between a fawn (button buck) and a mature doe they shouldn't be hunting.

I don't understand the whole fascination with shooting buttons, spikes and does.
Personally I don't apply for a DMP but if I did I would only shoot a mature doe that was past her breeding prime... commonly called a "dry doe"
As far as spikes and buttons... leave 'em alone and let 'em grow.

Like I said before though... some guys just don't care and they'll shoot the first thing that's brown and within range.



Spanky

[possume]

how can you tell a diff at dusk or dawn from a button or a doe at a hundred yards no scope i shouldnt be hunting

[DANNY-L]

If hunters didnt shoot until broadcasted sunrise and didnt shoot after broadcasted sunset as the regs. state they would be able to see perfectly as to what they are shooting.

[possume]

if id doesnt have horns to see how do you know if its a button or a doe simple ?100 yards no optics

[DANNY-L]

Thats true,one can only try to size it up. Usually if a deer looks sqaure its a fawn thats about all I go by.



























u

[bubba]

if id doesnt have horns to see how do you know if its a button or a doe simple ?100 yards no optics

maybe if it were a law not to shoot them, people would be more careful and shall I say selective.

[possume]

they would still get shot and they would just be left laying and it would be good meat wasted

[mspaci]

This is a really tough question. I am not sure there will be any hard answers. I know that seasoned hunters should know the difference & maybe education might be the partial answer. Start right with the kids in hunter safety as to how to identify the difference. If you arent sure dont shoot. Maybe you should have to use your buck tag on one if shot & then it would slow down the taking of them, but wont eliminate it totally. I think some states have earn a buck. How about if you draw a doe tag you have to shoot a doe first. If they make a mistake they have to use the buck tag on a button & the doe tag is null & void & they are done for the season. I dont know what else could be done. Maybe a little pier pressure to not shoot them?  Mike

[DANNY-L]

To help keep track of whats being taken they could establish mandatory checkpoints and steep fines IF caught not useing them. Have it so that in order to get another tag you must go to the checkpoint. Bottom line is if it keeps going the (some) hunters will ruin it for the hunters yet to come.

[woodchukhntr]

To help keep track of whats being taken they could establish mandatory checkpoints and steep fines IF caught not useing them. Have it so that in order to get another tag you must go to the checkpoint. Bottom line is if it keeps going the (some) hunters will ruin it for the hunters yet to come.

Fish and game enforcement is a joke here in NY.  There are a handful of Conservation Officers, they are scattered, and F&G enforcement is secondary to environmental law enforcement.  The State Police have stations spread thruout the state that have adequate troopers for 24 hr., 365 days/yr.  CO's cover their assigned areas for 1 shift, 5 days a week, and are on limited overtime.  When they are off there is nobody else.  The CO's (when they were actually Game Wardens) used to have a lot of discretion as to their work time, and the state actually had part-timers during the hunting season.

[woodsdweller]

first off open up the game book and turn to the back and count the number of eco officers there are. there are 62 counties in ny and over 200 officers. i think they can get coverage. next if you are using open sights and are trying to cover up shooting fawns(what a button buck is) then do yourself a favor and invest in a pair of binos. there are a lot of inexpansive optics that can get the job done. not try to be harsh and start an arguement. just making a few points. another thing is i do not care what you want to harvest as you should not care what i want to harvest. my family and i love venison and have no problems shooting spikes and up. i would rather see a person shoot a spike than a doe. our deer numbers here in the catskills are no ware what they use to be. due to over harvest of does and predators. i am 42 years old and been in the woods since i could walk. people we need to get back to the true meaning of hunting it was to provide meat for the table and you can throw in the time spent with family and friends enjoying what God has given us to have dominion over. GREED,TV,and TROPHY HUNTING IS WHAT IS RUNING OUR WONDERFUL HERITAGE.  Lets wake up and get back to the basic and just put all the rat race of this world we live in behind us for a while. just enjoy the quality time one gets sitting on a log next to a hot run waiting for the first light of day to start shinning thru the trees and the anticipation of the first deer sneaking down the trail towards you.  Can you see it people, feel the rush, the warmth crusing thru you once shivering body. this is only the experance we hunters can share, we have all been there. there are bigger concerns like people who are trying to take all this from us. i have now share these experiances with my wife ,older daughter and son, i want to do the same with my grandchildren so lets pick the battles that really matter.

[billy_56081]

I don't know where you live Danny but our regs state one half hour before to one half hour after. It is alsmost impossible to tell a doe fawn from a buck fawn in its heavy northern winter coat in broad daylight right under you.

Years back my friends inlaws from Alabama were deer hunting with us in northern Minnesota. They were all excited about the big doe they shot. We never did tell em it was a fawn.

[DANNY-L]

billy I am in the northern zone 6c and the regs clearly state hunting ours are sunrise to sunset (pg 20) and on pg 73 there is a sunrise-sunset chart to go by. Another thing that would help to not shoot the button bucks is there are lots of people out there (we all know of some) that have enogh meat in there freezers but think since they still have tags they must fill them,then turn around and throw it away next summer getting ready to do it all over again.

[mspaci]

yes, ny is sunrise to sunset.  Mike

[bubba]

billy I am in the northern zone 6c and the regs clearly state hunting ours are sunrise to sunset (pg 20) and on pg 73 there is a sunrise-sunset chart to go by. Another thing that would help to not shoot the button bucks is there are lots of people out there (we all know of some) that have enogh meat in there freezers but think since they still have tags they must fill them,then turn around and throw it away next summer getting ready to do it all over again.

Aint that the truth. I am running into it with my mephew this fall.  I am also in the north in 6a.  Anyway he started working on a big farm in our area. He is 18, but this is the first year he has actually been doing much big game hunting.  He shot a decent doe during early muzzleloading, which was his first deer.  He then shot a spike.  The owner of the farm gave him a nuisance permit.  Well he called me tuesday night and asked if he could use my gambriel to hang one. Of course I said ok.  He showed up with a 50 pound maybe button buck.  I asked him why.  He responded I had a tag.  I made my point by picking the deer up and hanging it on the gambriel without lowering the gambriel.  I said quantity is not as important as quality.  I also said if you let this one walk, he could have been a decent deer in a couple years.  He said to me I guess you are jealous I shot more than you this year.  Well that did not set well.  I told him to take his baby and hang it elsewhere.  Yeah I over reacted, but I was also making a point.  As he was loading the deer in his truck, I also let him kow that yeah I only shot two deer this year, but one of mine was heavier that all three of his. I am still in the woods, but let a buck walk last wekeend as I do not have a tag or a need for the meat.   I am no proponent of antler restrictions, but greed does take over.  He now has three deer this season, but was trying to give this one away, as he did not need any more.   I said the it should stil be walking.  He has not spoken to me since, but I am willing to bet he will think about pulling the trigger next time. 

[DANNY-L]

Bubba I dont think you over reacted if I would have been there he would have gotten a double wammy from both of us. Hopefully what you told him didnt just go in one ear and out the other.

[hillbill]

good thread, lots of different opinions. thats what makes america great.im not forced to believe what yu do and your not forced to believe what i do.i shot a button this year, i studied it carefully thru 10x binocs and a 12x scope.it was small and just what i was looking for.could not determine sex.one carefully placed neck shot later it was in my freezer with minimal meat damage.im basically what yu would call a subsistence hunter.ive found that the smaller deer are better eating, thats my opinion, yurs may differ.small deer have smaller percentage of chance of surviveing the winter here.yu may be a trophy hunter and see that button as a potential 12 pt buk. that may be.i see it as a to add delicous meat to my larder.i let several healthy small antlered bucks walk because they were 2 or better years old and had a larger percentage chance of makeing a trophy buk, well that my son will enjoy shooting lol.jus because yu are a triophy hunter does not mean yu can dictate what a man does within the law to feed himself or his family.or judge him as to what he shoots.manage your deer and property as yu see fit but dont flame sumone else for thier methods of manageing their deer and property.

[homebuilt]

i'm sorry i disagree, i do NOT care about antlers. i've boiled the hell out of them and there tough. i haven't found a single one that i can chew. i also read above that one of you would not shoot a doe unless she was to old to breed. well how exactly would one know this? not to mention it would hardly be considered edible meat. how many of you go to the store or a resturaunt and ask for the oldest and toughest steak they have? i'll bet none of you. i personally target this years deer up to 1 1/2 year olds. they are tender and taste great. i do like to look at large racks and have one on my wall, but he tasted like crap.

[Leatherstocking]

This is indeed a good thread. I think there is no simple answer and no matter what happens, button bucks will get shot. It happens, will continue to happen and it is not the end of the world. There is only so much we can do to protect young age class bucks. I also understand the folks who don't like AR's because they don't want to be told what they can shoot. So what do you guys think about this option..... Right now your regular big game tag allows you to take an antlered deer. And you need to put in for a DMP through the lottery.............. What if we turned it upside down and made that regular big game tag an either sex tag instead of buck only? That way a person could take whatever they want. But my guess is that a lot more young bucks would be passed up because a guy would know they could always fill that tag with a doe. In areas with lots of deer, a prescribed number of doe permits could still be issued, depending upon need. Areas with relatively low numbers get no additional DMP's.

[DANNY-L]

I dont like that idea,people that get a super sportsman + a DMP already allows them to take 3 doe's,if you do the math (which I think I did right)that would account for approximently 15 less deer in a 3year period for each doe taken ( 1 doe accounts for 15 deer in 3 years) . So the deer numbers would drop in a big hurry and that means alot of them would be the bucks of the future. With less deer you are bound to see willing youngster engage in the sport also.

[woodsdweller]

tell me what i am missing here. i spend my hard earned money to purchase a super sportsman for my wife my 16 year old daughter and my self as well as what it cost to get a jr lic for my 14 yr old son. we all get muzzleloader and trapping lic as well.

 the only people pitching a fit is those of you who have to feed your ego buy the burning desire to shoot a deer you deem to be a trophy. We all look thru different eyes, mine happen to see the excitment and joy we get as a family over the harvest of any legal buck 3" on one side. this is they way it was with my grandfather,my father and now me as a father. the time spent at the table over a pan full of back straps smothered in mushroons and onions, that just in lic fees cost as much as a lot of steak dinners. what dose it matter we just shot a spike its dead you are not going to get a chance to harvest it as a bigger buck. you dont hunt where we hunt its our land we pay the taxes and its posted.

heres a tip save you breath and money and book a hunt with and outfitter.

[dks7895]

There are hunters that follow the rules, and there are hunters that do not.  I choose to follow the rules and encourage others to do the same.  Antler restrictions are in place and we should follow the book.  In my state some counties have them, and some do not.  Laws/rules only make sense if they can be enforced.  I do not see anyway to enforce the protection of button bucks.