Author Topic: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns  (Read 2571 times)

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Offline Cannoneer

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A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« on: November 30, 2010, 08:59:33 PM »
I'm not going to blame any of the school's authorities for this, because it's very possible that their maintenance workers dumped the cannons like this and they didn't know anything about it, but I do like the fact that the student reporters for the schools paper brought this situation to everyone's attention.

After reading the article I was thinking that maybe it would be wiser if they decided to mount the guns on two wrought iron Marsilly carriages, and thereby avoid the need of having to either replace or refurbish two wooden Marsilly carriages in another few years. It wouldn't be the historically accurate way that the cannons were mounted on the U.S.S. Hartford, but the reasons for doing so could be explained on a commemorative plaque placed by the guns.    

http://media.www.trinitytripod.com/media/storage/paper520/news/2006/04/04/News/Historic.Cannons.To.Be.Fixed-1782144.shtml
This is the article that came from the above link.

The Trinity Tripod
Online Edition
Tuesday, November 9, 2010


Historic Cannons to Be Fixed?

Bill Cosgrove
Issue date: 4/4/06 Section: News

Restoration work on the main quad's two historic war cannons is in its infancy stage and major work is scheduled to begin later this spring, according to Director of Facilities Sally Katz.

"Our hope is that they will be back before the fall, but like everything else that schedule may slide if more pressing work arises," said Katz. "We want to get them repaired and back out on the campus, but we have to fit the work into the schedule of other projects."

As of now, Katz stated the cannons are being stored in the Buildings and Grounds holding area and "are behind a fence and bounded by barriers and palettes."

Upon further investigation by Tripod reporters, however, it was discovered that the cannons are lying outside in the Facilities lot surrounded by dumpsters and tires. There was no fence or barrier surrounding the cannons to prevent anyone from vandalizing them.

The cannons, which were used during the Civil War aboard the U.S.S. Hartford, were removed from their spot along the Lower Long Walk overlooking the athletic fields last spring because the wooden bases that held them in place were beginning to disintegrate. When the Navy League of the United States borrowed the cannons in 1994 for display during commissioning ceremonies for the second U.S.S. Hartford, they replaced the bases with new ones whose design was drawn from original plans in the Smithsonian Institution. "Unfortunately, the wood used was not properly cured and the [bases] proceeded to deteriorate more rapidly than their predecessors," explained College Archivist Peter Knapp '65. "Since each cannon weighs about 9,000 pounds, it was prudent to remove them from public display for reasons of safety." The bases need to be completely rebuilt from scratch.

Michael Roraback of Buildings and Grounds, who oversees the skilled trades team, is heading the restoration project and has ordered several different wood types that will be able to withstand exposure to New England's harsh elements. Roraback will be able to rebuild the bases because he has been able to get blueprints detailing the original bases. Katz noted that the skilled trades team is very busy right now preparing for graduation ceremonies and Reunion Weekend. Once Reunion Weekend (June 8-11) is over, Roraback and his team hope to be able to spend a lot of time reconstructing the bases for the cannons.

In regards to funding, Katz does not have final pricing on the project yet. However, President Jimmy Jones said, "On the money front, the cost to refurbish them and to remount them is quite modest and was included in the Buildings and Grounds budget for 2005 (this fiscal year ends on June 30, 2006)."

Where the cannons came from and how they ended up at Trinity is an interesting story, one which Knapp wrote about in the September 1995 issue of the trinity Reporter. In the article, Knapp recounts the role of the U.S.S. Hartford in the Civil War. Commanded by Admiral David Farragut, the Hartford, along with other Union naval forces, captured New Orleans in April of 1862. later, Farragut focused on capturing Mobile, Ala., an important industrial center, during the Battle of Mobile Bay. Knapp writes, "On August 5, 1864 occured the battle with which Farragut and the Hartford became synonymous for their heroic achievements and which gave rise to Farragut's immortal utterance, "Damn the torpedoes [i.e., mines], full speed ahead!"

After the war, the Hartford served overseas before having its armament removed in 1894. The ship was decommissioned in 1926, and declared a relic in 1945 before being sunk in 1956.

The city of Hartford received four of the Hartford's cannons in 1898 and they were originally situated at each corner of the State Capitol grounds. In 1949, Keith Funston, Trinity's president, learned that two of the cannons were in the city's storage yard and asked whether they could be loaned to Trinity as a memorial for students who fought in the Civil War. Of the 105 Trinity men in the war, 81 fought for the Union and 24 for the Confederacy, and 16 died. In 1950, the cannons were brought to the campus.

In the Reporter, Knapp describes the cannons as "a symbol of supreme heroism and selflessness."

Students that the Tripod spoke with seem to miss the cannons and hope they come back soon. "They made me feel really safe when I was walking on the lower Long Walk. If I saw a menacing figure approaching me at night, I would think "No problem! If he tries anything, I've got these big cannons. Nothing can touch me!" said Claire Haley '08. Summer Cannon '08 hopes the cannons are returned soon "because they are part of the history of the school. I'm sure the tour guides miss them."

Some students wonder how safe Trinity is from rival schools now that the cannons are gone. "We're far less safe from a sneak attack from guerrilla fighters from Wesleyan," noted Haley. Similarly, Isaac Oransky '08 asked, "How will we defend ourselves from Yale if not for the cannons?"

Ultimately, members of the Trinity community are confident that the cannons will be appropriately restored and do not mind any extra time that it has taken to fix them. "Considering that care must be taken to do the job right this time, a few additional months or so is not of major consequence," commented Knapp. "Situated once again on the quad looking out over the playing fields, the cannons will remain a fitting memorial to the Trinity men who served in the Civil War."



http://articles.courant.com/2006-11-15/features/0611150074_1_cannons-mobile-bay-big-guns  
[read pp. 1-2]


RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2010, 10:26:10 PM »
Those article are dated 2006.  Is there any current status?

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 01:24:04 AM »
No, and I gave it a decent try, but I couldn't turn up any photos of the guns on the carriages, or any articles that placed the cannons back on display.

I noticed that the first link isn't opening the Dahlgren guns article anymore, I'm getting a page to register for the Trinity Tripod online newspaper.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 02:15:20 AM »
     Mike and I visited the Trinity Campus in 2007 and again in 2009 and this is the way they looked then.  Evidently the carriage rebuild work went well.  They are far nicer than anything we have seen anywhere else in the country.

Tracy


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 02:42:58 AM »
Douglas,

I think that it is not only an affront to common decency, but also to historical accuracy that these carriages are nekid; so to speak. Where's the paint!!!
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline BoomLover

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 04:31:23 AM »
No, No, No! Paint has it's place, but those of us who appreciate beautiful woodwork would like to have a few of these mounts displayed "Au Natural"...That one looks fine to me! (Now if it were in Myrtlewood....Ah, the Beauty!) BoomLover
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline Zulu

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 04:59:03 AM »
I'm with you BoomLover!  That gun looks great!  It has a character a painted carriage could never share.
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Offline intoodeep

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2010, 05:04:01 AM »

 I don't think that "lendi" would like to see them painted....  ;)
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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 06:32:19 AM »
The cannons at Trinity are indeed on new carriages.  I worked with Michael on the restoration providing him with plans and a article that I had acquired.  I have built several Marsley carriages from these plans.  Michael had a great number of contacts and friends in the area to help him with the work.  The original carriages were not painted, and these are I believe white oak.  Stopped over to see Michael and the carriages after they were finished.  Absolutely beautiful.  My daughter graduated from Trinity and I would see the carriages in their state of disrepair when ever we visited.  Glad to see them brought back.
lendi

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2010, 07:07:27 AM »
Douglas,

I think that it is not only an affront to common decency, but also to historical accuracy that these carriages are nekid; so to speak. Where's the paint!!!

The originals weren't painted....

Offline BoomLover

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2010, 03:09:35 PM »
YES! Thanks for that timely info, Double D! BoomLover
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 05:56:08 AM »

The originals weren't painted....


     Some were.      This 11" Dahlgren Shell Gun on a naval pivot carriage was obviously painted.  Maybe Gilmore's artillerists painted it AFTER it came ashore and was mounted in a battery at Fort Putnam on the northern end of Morris Island to participate in the continued bombardment of Confederate held, Fort Sumter at the entrance to Charleston Harbor.  However, it sure looks like gray paint to us, Double D.  Would that color not indicate the Navy painted this piece before it came ashore?  Everyone knows how much the Navy likes haze gray paint!  Hope this example doesn't throw a wrench into the gears of your theory, DD.  We sure would never want to do that...........oh no.......never....ever.......  :D :D

M&T


The painted Dahlgren on Morris Island in Fort Putnam (1863-1865) during the siege of Charleston, South Carolina.

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Online Double D

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 06:22:07 AM »

The originals weren't painted....


     Some were.      This 11" Dahlgren Shell Gun on a naval pivot carriage was obviously painted.  Maybe Gilmore's artillerists painted it AFTER it came ashore and was mounted in a battery at Fort Putnam on the northern end of Morris Island to participate in the continued bombardment of Confederate held, Fort Sumter at the entrance to Charleston Harbor.  However, it sure looks like gray paint to us, Double D.  Would that color not indicate the Navy painted this piece before it came ashore?  Everyone knows how much the Navy likes haze gray paint!  Hope this example doesn't throw a wrench into the gears of your theory, DD.  We sure would never want to do that...........oh no.......never....ever.......  :D :D

M&T


The painted Dahlgren on Morris Island in Fort Putnam (1863-1865) during the siege of Charleston, South Carolina.



Complex subtle humor...and some missed it.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Douglas,

I think that it is not only an affront to common decency, but also to historical accuracy that these carriages are nekid; so to speak. Where's the paint!!!


The cannons at Trinity are indeed on new carriages.  I worked with Michael on the restoration providing him with plans and a article that I had acquired.  I have built several Marsley carriages from these plans.  Michael had a great number of contacts and friends in the area to help him with the work.  The original carriages were not painted, and these are I believe white oak.  Stopped over to see Michael and the carriages after they were finished.  Absolutely beautiful.  My daughter graduated from Trinity and I would see the carriages in their state of disrepair when ever we visited.  Glad to see them brought back.
lendi


Douglas,

I think that it is not only an affront to common decency, but also to historical accuracy that these carriages are nekid; so to speak. Where's the paint!!!

The originals weren't painted....

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2010, 07:32:10 AM »
Touché !

T&M
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2010, 06:30:09 PM »
YES! Thanks for that timely info, Double D! BoomLover

I agree with you Jim, in fact, I think that the Double D gave us a double blast of timely info; not only is he now a practitioner of "complex, subtle humor" :P, but I guess that we're soon going to be treated to a new thread that will entail the 2nd refurbishment of his now famous reduced scale M1845 42-pdr Seacoast Gun/Rifle Conversion, which served on and sank with the USS Cairo river gunboat. It's a shame that all that hard work on the gun's carriage has to be undone to return it to the evidently historically accurate condition of being unpainted. Douglas must have uncovered some irrefutable evidence that reverses the previously held belief that Federal Navy gun carriages were painted black during the period of the Civil War, and also for some time preceding and following that same war. :o
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline BoomLover

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2010, 08:08:52 PM »
So, henceforth, I shall leave any carriages/sleds/mounts in the "raw", unpainted state, unless or until an historically accurate description of a "painted" version is observed. Not to disagree with anyone on this venerable forum, but it's just my personal choice 'cause I like the wood! I like the painted versions, too, and look longingly at the versions depicted on many of the sponsors sites, however I'm one who can appreciate the detail of the original unpainted wood, and the workmanship entailed. To me, it could be sacrilege to to cover both the detailed workmanship, along with the natural colors and grains of the wood. ...That's kind of long, isn't it? Oh well...sometimes I'm given to ramble on....
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 10:02:05 PM »
Listen, there are a couple of givens here: One is that it's almost impossible for me to pass up an opportunity to rib Douglas about his need to paint all wooden gun carriages, and the other is that BoomLover's opinion on the subject are nearly the same as mine. I used the word nearly, because there's one major difference in our opinions, and that's when it comes to full size artillery; then I agree with DD that the carriage finish should be as historically accurate as is possible. Don't ask me why, but when it comes to the full size stuff (especially for original, but even for reproduction barrels) I'd rather see them finished as close to historic reality as the known facts allow.
BTW: I also think that the construction trades foreman with the buildings and grounds department of the college (Mike Roraback) did an excellent job with the Marsilly carriage (it's a beauty).
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 02:34:11 AM »
I think you are going to have to back a long ways on this board to find the last time I said  paint...


Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 06:22:44 AM »
So the question is:  is the object in question historically accurate to when it was FIRST built or is it historically accurate to a later period of use?

Either histerical accuracy is ok by me.

 ;)
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2010, 10:33:30 AM »
I think you are going to have to back a long ways on this board to find the last time I said  paint...

Paint, anyone?   ;D
GG
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2010, 10:04:36 AM »
I think you are going to have to back a long ways on this board to find the last time I said  paint...

I think Douglas might need a little cheering up right about now, and I’m just the man for the job.
Alright Douglas, listen to the voice of reason: You’ve got a little over a month of being clean under your belt (George was just being kind going that far back), it’s not like you’re getting your 1-year pin yet, so let’s try and keep things in their proper perspective, it’s a good start and we’re proud of you, but as I understand it cockiness is a sure-fire way of falling right off the wagon and hitting the ground hard. Always keep in mind that this compulsion to paint is a serious condition, and it’s going to take a serious frame of mind to lick it.
Heck, I can remember it like it was yesterday when you would be absolutely powerless to stop yourself from describing a beautifully finished carriage (that someone had spent hours sanding, staining, and applying a clear finish to) as “all pimped out.” Yes, of course we knew this was a thinly veiled insult, but we also knew that you weren’t being mean on purpose; you were simply under the spell of that insidious and all-powerful addiction that is commonly known as ‘the need to paint’.  :) ;D :D, :) ;D :D, :) ;D :D

Check out: Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010
To paint, or not to paint, that is the question...
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2010, 12:11:36 PM »
I see I need to expand my Christmas list and do some shopping on E-Bay    ;D

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2010, 12:23:18 PM »
I think you are going to have to back a long ways on this board to find the last time I said  paint...



Yea.  I think it was: If it grows, mow it; if it doesn't move, paint it; and if it moves, salute it.  Or something like that.  Old habbits are hard to break.

That ebay stuff is starting at prices we used to pay for a TON of it!
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2010, 01:09:39 PM »
That ebay stuff is starting at prices we used to pay for a TON of it!

Yeah, but you had to take several tons of it to get that price and the money was worth more then, too.
GG
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 04:53:27 AM »
I see I need to expand my Christmas list and do some shopping on E-Bay    ;D

Don't shoot the messenger. ::)   If you do get me a lump of coal; could you make it clean coal (whatever the heck that is)? I don't need any 'Greenies' breathing down my neck, for aiding and abetting the destruction of the universe. :D


Yea.  I think it was: If it grows, mow it; if it doesn't move, paint it; and if it moves, salute it.  Or something like that.  Old habbits are hard to break.

If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, pick it up; and if you can't pick it up, paint it. -- Anonymous (1940's saying)

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cwnavy1

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2011, 08:36:57 AM »
I know it's been a while since this has been viewed, I thought I'd add to the paint-no-paint discussion for naval gun carriages during the Civil War.  Here at the National Civil War Naval Museum at Port Columbus in Columbus, GA, we've studied many photos in detail and upon searching the US Navy Ordnance Manual for 1864, on page 68, it gives a detailed formula for "Black Stain - (for wood-work of gun carriages)".  It lists a number of what must be deadly chemicals and then gives instructions which says to fill cracks with "black putty" which to me means the carriages are to be black.  It says to apply a couple of coats, then allow a day or two to dry, then rub with boiled oil.  It will be a "bluish" color until the final oiling.  This matches what the photographs seem to indicate of a very dark color for naval gun carriages.  The natural wood seems beautiful, but one wonders at building incredibly accurate Marsilly carriages only to stop one step before completion in order to have a finish that appeals to modern tastes. 

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2011, 09:40:22 AM »
I know it's been a while since this has been viewed, I thought I'd add to the paint-no-paint discussion for naval gun carriages during the Civil War.  Here at the National Civil War Naval Museum at Port Columbus in Columbus, GA, we've studied many photos in detail and upon searching the US Navy Ordnance Manual for 1864, on page 68, it gives a detailed formula for "Black Stain - (for wood-work of gun carriages)".  It lists a number of what must be deadly chemicals and then gives instructions which says to fill cracks with "black putty" which to me means the carriages are to be black.  It says to apply a couple of coats, then allow a day or two to dry, then rub with boiled oil.  It will be a "bluish" color until the final oiling.  This matches what the photographs seem to indicate of a very dark color for naval gun carriages. The natural wood seems beautiful, but one wonders at building incredibly accurate Marsilly carriages only to stop one step before completion in order to have a finish that appeals to modern tastes.

Welcome to you  CWNavy1 and bravo for your well stated post!!

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Re: A Couple of Disrespected Dahlgren Shell Guns
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2011, 03:58:42 PM »
cwnavy1 -

WELCOME to the board!

Good comments.

What do you like to shoot!?


Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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