CSPAN on the Remington 700

[victorcharlie]

I watched a show on CSPAN (I think) that delved into the trigger issues surrounding the Remington 700 and unintentional firing.

They claim, 1% or some 50,000 rifles might have the problem.

Lots of interviews with people, law enforcement, and the military in regard to the issue.

Anyone else watch it?

[Rangr44]

I did, and thought it VERY interesting - particularly when the showed engineering diagrams of the Remington 700's trigger's "conector bar", and how it can malfunction; the internal corporate memos from as early as 1948 that the trigger could fail under some circumstances (M-721/722); and that Remington passed on a $0.055 per rifle recall/upgrade cost in the late 60's.

I also thought the interview with now 98 year old Mike Walker, the original designer (and inside complainer), quite revealing - he said he thought that Remington acted with "stupidity", and not malice/greed.

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[Swampman]

If any of it were factual it would be interesting.  I'll side with gun owners thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_KVS1hIbQg

[Rangr44]

FWIW, besides Remington's corporate policies and the Model 700's trigger design, the show was centered on a gun owner (Rem 700) whose 9 y.o. son died in an AD involving the M700.

The gun's designer, Mike Walker, readily admitted that his M721/722/700 trigger design was faulty, and tried in vain to get Remington to modify it.

IMO, Mike Walker has forgotten more about the Rem 700 than any of us here will ever know.

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[Swampman]

Did you watch the video?  Around about minute 2:50 it becomes clear how a lady killed her own son.

[woodyed]

I'll side with Mike Walker and I thought the documentary was very accurate and factual. Remington is at fault in this regard and I hate to think what they are paying for liability insurance because of it. There already has been several lawsuits settled in the plaintiffs favor by the courts over this defective 700 trigger episode.
I keep hearing that there would have never been any deaths or injuries if safe gun handling had been adhered to and while this is true, it doesn't excuse the fact that the gun discharged when the trigger wasn't even pulled or touched, whether the gun was pointed at someone or not. Corrective action should have been taken many years ago when this problem originally surfaced, but Remington chose to ignore it and hope that only a small percentage of defective triggers would ever surface in the public domain. Granted there are millions of 700's that were sold and a great majority of them have avoided this trigger problem, but it's the few 700's that do have this problem that is the concern of many sportsmen and hunters. Even the people who have a 700's and haven't had any trigger problems must wonder and be in suspense on when it might or will happen to them.

[woodyed]

I can't believe that a man could have such "blind faith" in the "oldest gun maker" that he refuses to believe that they can do no wrong and can't be faulted for any defective product they produce. Remington and Toyota have slept in the same bed when it comes to defective products, but at least Toyota issued a recall and redesigned their problem accelerator and brakes, where Remington did nothing but handle their trigger problem only when they came up or surfaced. Remington may be a great and old gunmaker, but that doesn't make them "Saints" or "the ultimate Zion's" in the firearms industry, incapable of doing "no wrong" or producing a defective product. It takes a "man" to realize that even the best and oldest company can screw-up now and then. It also takes a "man" to realize that when this does occur, that the company involved should take any remedial action necessary to make good or solve the problem. Even soccer mom's would agree with this.

[Swampman]

There is no problem except operator error.

[woodyed]

You're absolutely correct, Remington's operators and engineers.

[Harry Snippe]

Just because there is a video does not make it true .It is just a video .A tool to record any thing you would like to sell.

Some people who have had some of the rifles involved who report an AD without having had any modifications to the rifles, have reported there has been indeed -a problem .This has all been gone over on another thread here @ Graybeards .
But then being one of those who report an AD we are just just full of crap- as we have some agenda to discredit Remington . My rifle was corrected @ remington free of charge quietly and no more issues .
Remington now wants to modify your gun "BUT" you need to pay shipping .
Now we can Keep going on this as Swapy will NEVER admit Remington has had a problem with some of their guns

[243dave]

I've watched the video Swampman, Remington never denied what Mike Walker had to say, why is that ??  Perhaps what he said is true.  I guess he would know since he is the designer.   Dave 

[woodyed]

The funny part of all this is that it's not just the M700, it's also their M597 rifle and 17 HMR ammo. Not quite sure what the problem is with their 597 or the 17 HMR ammo, but I haven't heard it was the trigger. In this case they are at least issuing a recall as is stated by their warning ads in almost all shooting publications. I'm fast coming to the conclusion that the Remington Company isn't what it used to be. I'm also a little perplexed and saddened that Remington bought out Marlin, which I believe was a huge mistake on Marlin's part. Marlin has always made excellent firearms and their new XL7 and XS7 series have taken the rifle field by storm. To be associated with Remington can only hurt Marlin in my opinion and to what extent only remains to be seen.

[Swampman]

The problem with the M597 is that it isn't strong enough for the .17HMR.  Remington is replacing them with .22 Mags if you'll return your 597.

Marlin didn't have a choice in the sale.

Remingtons are better than they ever were.

The Model 700 is still "the most accurate, and best selling production boltaction rifle in the world."

Ignore the facts if you like but there is no problem that Remington had any control over.



http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2010/10/petzal-different-look-remington-model-700-trigger

[Brithunter]

I can't believe that a man could have such "blind faith" in the "oldest gun maker"

Ahhh actually Beretta is the oldest gunmaker. Remington may be Americas oldest gunmaker but America did not exist when Beretta started making guns. Oh fr the record I am not a fan of Beretta's either.

[Swampman]

That's important....to our context.

[Rangr44]

If someone applies a little "street smarts" to this issue, it can be a little illuminating.

Remember, these triger issues first started in 1948/49, when Mike Walker wrote that first corporate memo to upgrade the M721/722 trigger with his newer version.

Remington's unresponsiveness, regarding a trigger change,  was carried over into the Model 700 in 1962, and not corrected until some 20-odd years after that.

All, well prior to the virtually world-wide exposure the web now gives issues.

I would opine that Remington's lawyers, given the communications of the day, thought they could limit their exposure & keep a lid on things by simply remaining silent - figuring none of the complaintants would ever find out about all the OTHER complaints.

They were, of course, wrong - but - in for a penny, in for a pound.   

Remington, like some others, just doesn't want to admit that they were in error.

.

[Bowjack]

I have actual experience with these triggers.  One hunting season I was at a get together with a group of people that they were hosting in their garage.  One guy was showing me his Rem 700 7MM mag, but it was loaded.  I didn't want to handel a loaded rifle in a garage full of people so I decided to unload it.  

I NEVER HAD MY FINGER ON THE TRIGGER (with 21 years in LE I know better, and another 35 yrs around firearms).  Anyway while cycling the bolt, the gun fired with a thunderous boom to everyone's shock and horror. Thankfully the gun was pointed upward and I only sent a round through the roof of the garage.  The farmer I was staying with was none too happy as his ear was a mere feet away from the blast and couldn't hear for several days.  With the exception of the farmer's wife who was watching me, everyone believed I pulled the trigger.  

Needless to say, I was happy no one was hurt, but I can assure you I never wanted to touch that rifle again.

I'll take my Win 70 with 3 position safety and hinged magazine floorpplate over any model 700, and it will match the accuracy of any 700 if not beat it.

This is not secondhand info, but an actual experience that happened to me.      

[Swampman]

I'd bet $1000.00 that the trigger had been "adjusted" or that "someone" had their finger on the trigger.

[Bowjack]

Swampman,

I can't tell you 100% re: trigger work as I don't know the person well enough, seen him little since, and it isn't my gun.  So, I could lie and tell you no, but that wouldn't be the truth, and I can assure you it has never happened with any other gun I have handled.  

However, it was stated clearly my finger was not on the trigger.  So, in regards to your bet re: finger on the trigger I would love to take your money, but nevertheless its issuance just plain arrogant and/or ignorant.  Obviously, you can't read or your sophomoric statement is merely meant to be provocative

I used to sympathize for you getting so many hostile replies, but now I know why ... you deserve everyone.

I am certain your kindergarten report card often stated that you don't play well with others and/or requires special education since most people's personalities were crystallized during those formative years and likely don't change much over the course of their lifetime.  

[Swampman]

I'm just sayin' nobody wants to admit they pulled the trigger.

[Bowjack]

Do you think I would respond to this if I pulled the trigger???  Are you daft??

[woodyed]

 Hey Swampy, let me present you with a scenario that would involve just you and me. You and I go into Cabelos or Bass Pro and ask the clerk to show us a M700 and he finds one and hands it to you. I'm just standing there watching as you work the bolt and close the action and the gun fires. I'm witnessing that you never touched the trigger. What are you going to say now, "there must have been a finger on the trigger, or someone adjusted the trigger"? These seem to be your favorite and steadfast replies when anyone relates that this scenario has happened to them. In the above sited case involving you and me, I would love to see your reaction and hear your gifted resonse. I predict that with you owning M700's or maybe you will be handling a friends M700, that one day you will witness this trigger problem first hand. When it happens I hope you are in good health and not subject to siezures or any adverse heart conditions as it will definitely be a shock to your system.

[Hooker]

I got a fix for this.
Just send me all them dangerous 700s I'll protect you from them


Pat

[Swampman]

Hey Swampy, let me present you with a scenario that would involve just you and me. You and I go into Cabelos or Bass Pro and ask the clerk to show us a M700 and he finds one and hands it to you. I'm just standing there watching as you work the bolt and close the action and the gun fires. I'm witnessing that you never touched the trigger. What are you going to say now, "there must have been a finger on the trigger, or someone adjusted the trigger"? These seem to be your favorite and steadfast replies when anyone relates that this scenario has happened to them. In the above sited case involving you and me, I would love to see your reaction and hear your gifted resonse. I predict that with you owning M700's or maybe you will be handling a friends M700, that one day you will witness this trigger problem first hand. When it happens I hope you are in good health and not subject to siezures or any adverse heart conditions as it will definitely be a shock to your system.

It can only happen if
a) The rifle has been tampered with.
b) The rifle has not been maintained properly.
c) Someone is touching the trigger when they take the safety off.

[Swampman]

I mearly shows that as a gunsmith I need to learn about Winchester rifles and that's why I own them.  At this point they haven't proven accurate enough to hunt with.

Your experience only supports what you are saying.  You don't know if the rifle had been tinkered with.  You're not sure if your finger was on the trigger or not.

[mattl]

I had a neighbor bring me his Remington 700 that was having the same problem as the one the law enforcement officer had in the Remington Documentary, it would not fire when the trigger was pulled but would as soon as pressure was applied to the bolt to open it.  It was brand new (had it less than 2 months) and had less than 100 rounds through it.  When he first got it he brought it over and we shot 2 1/2 boxes of ammo through it and never had a problem but now it would have issues on every other round that we attempted to fire. 

I removed the rifle from the stock and noticed the coating usually on the trigger adjustment screws, that Remington puts on them to be able to tell if the trigger has been tampered with, had been removed.  I then cycled the action and tested the trigger while watching the sear engagement through the sight window and noticed that the sear would not fully drop out of the way and would bind with the trigger.  It seems that my neighbor in his infinate wisdom watched a Youtube video on how to "Properly Adjust" the 700 trigger and did it himself.  He had adjusted the overtravel screw too far forward where when you pulled the trigger it would not reliably allow the sear to drop out of the way.  The sear was not in the cocked position, but the gun had been fired only the rifle was unable to fire.  The sear was in an in between position (between cocked and fired), a dangerous situation, and when pressure was placed upon the bolt in a direction to open it, the sear was able to drop out of the way of the cocking peice and firing pin.  Thus the rifle fired when pressure was placed upon the bolt and not the trigger, but in all reality, the rifle was fired when the trigger was pulled.  I readjusted the trigger back so that the trigger function properly and safely and the rifle has yet to fail him yet and he had fired hundreds of rounds through it.

That day my neighbor lied to me telling me that he nor andybody else had tampered with the trigger.  It took him a long time to admit to me that he had.  He didn't want to admit that he had messed up his rifle.

The only other rifle I have seen to unintentionally discharge was a Savage, and it also was due to the owner trying to adjust the trigger beyond it's safe limits

[Swampman]

Thanks mattl I've seen dozen of similar stories on the net since CSPAM put out it's faux report.

[Aught Six]

It can only happen if
a) The rifle has been tampered with.
b) The rifle has not been maintained properly.
c) Someone is touching the trigger when they take the safety off.

Are you an engineer?

Frankly, as an engineer, I get very leery when others close-mindedly state that something can't happen.

I've seen it too many times to the contrary.

In a mechanical system, one of the first things that a smart engineer learns is that you're NEVER as smart as you think you are.

Believe me, this is not an airtight design.  There are lots of opportunities for failure to creep into this system.

To blindly insist that it's impossible is folly.

[Swampman]

I work with engineers all day.  To say that I'm unimpressed with them is a huge understatement.

I didn't say it couldn't happen.  Negligent Discharges happen all the time.

[Bowjack]

Negligent Discharges happen all the time.

I know one!!!