Rules of engagement

[ironglow]

  It's what we get when "Hahvahd" trained people try to direct a war...

[Pat/Rick]

ironglow, yessiree! Always thought war was best left to warriors. Even saddam husseins inexperience showed that during the iraq/iran war. His inexperience brought that conflict to a quagmireing halt. I am sure there are many more examples out there. Even if a president had military service under his belt, he would probably be better off listening to his military advisors.

[rdmallory]

>>>TeamNelson

Welcome home and Thanks for serving!

Doug

[goofyoldfart]

TeamNelson: Thank you for that explaination. And your service. When I was in Viet Nam, we had the same stupid crappola. I was just an E-6 so I didn't get the big picture that the officers did ( and alot of them didn't want to share. I guess it made them feel superior). But,Sir, one thing I do know is that if you tell your soldiers to go fight the Bast**ds and leave the gloves off, they WILL get the job done. I saw it time and time again. But, then , some brain damaged Politico would say "OH NO. pull them back because we can't do that due to.......... ". You fill in the dotted line. Watched too many of my Brothers die or be crippled due to Political FUBAR. Fight as a damn WAR or Get the h**l OUT. Sorry for the rant---But mark my words, We will fighting on OUR turf if there is not change, and very quickly. Oh well, from my point of view, I've been living on borrowed time for 40 years so today is a beautiful day to die. I just hope that My Father and the Lord Jesus forgive my Sins and let me die in a BIG pile of empty brass. God Bless to all and ESPECIALLY our fighting men and women.

                            GOF <aka grumpyoldfart--it's one of those days>

[powderman]

GOOFYOLDFART. Good post Sir, and thank you for your service. POWDERMAN. 

[teamnelson]

GOF, I'm a prior SSgt of Marines myself, and I remember the days I felt like a mushroom ... Thanks for your service, and I believe you have the answer to your prayer waiting on ya! Well maybe not the big pile of brass part; I pray no one ever has to go out that way again.

[ironglow]

  I just want to take this time to thank again...all veterans and all who are presently serving..  You are the strong fiber of our nation..

[goofyoldfart]

TeamNelson: thank you Sir: I sincerely hope the brass pile isn't necessary, also. But, If it is ---Then better for it to be me than some young one that has a future to make a better world. I got out of service due to the fact that I recognized that I wasn't P.C. enough to survive the Crappola. When Flying in choppers, We lifted many Marine units in and out (injured and dead) and resupplied hot LZ's time after time. Our Marines were (and are) some of the finest fighting men and women I have had the honor to serve with. My flight unit of the 229 aviation / 1st Cav/ Charlie Co., earned 3 Presidential Unit Citations during the time I was with them for doing MedEvac and Resupply under intense enemy fire. We were NOT a MedEvac unit, just lift ships. But when MedEvac felt that they couldn't make it into the hot LZ, we would go in instead. This is NOT to demean the MedEvac ships and crews---they were unarmed. We were armed (woo boy, and how sometimes) so we took the chances. Sometimes we payed the price. I lost 5 ships (4 in LZ's and 1 on lift off during a mortar attack) BUT we saved lives and that is the name of the game. We signed our names to the "blank check" and sometimes they were cashed. The look on the faces of the Marines and the Army that we lifted out were worth EVERY bullet sent our way!!   "Lest we forget". By the way, the "Crappola" was NOT directed at you, Sir. My Daughter is a Marine of 16 years before she Medicaled out due to injury. I am PROUD AS ALL GET OUT of her. God Bless to all.

                      Goofy<aka GOF>

[buffermop]

blitzcreeg warfare, level everything sight considered hostile and get the hell out. Patton had the right idea!!

[Spirithawk]

I live just outside of Branson. Every show has a tribute to veterans and all veterans in the audiences are asked to stand and be recognised. There are several veteran get togethers every year, such as the week long "Welcome Home". Veterans eat free in restaraunts and get free admission to shows. Wal Mart takes pics and gives copies free. A blown up pic of each veteran photographed is then put on their "Wall of Honour". Branso has an awesome Veterans Museum too. Down town, on the street corners, sculpted and painted into the sidewalks, are the emblems for each branch of service. I wear a Vietnam Veteran's cap covered with pins, each of which has a very special meaning. Every day I go to town I have people walk up to me and thank me for serving or say welcome home. That is common for all veterans here. After the reception we got after Vietnam it all tears me up every time. It's such a turn of feelings. Just two simple words can mean so very much to a veteran. To understand just how much "Thank You" can truly mean you need to be a vet yourself. I often have little kids come up and timidly tell me thank you for serving. I thank them for caring and have to turn quickly away so they don't see the tears. Few things can touch a heart so deeply. I wish every town treated vets so well.

[FourBee]

Goofy:  Our civilian chopper rescue pilots need to take lessons from those boys that did it in NAM.   They could make a hovering rescue look as simlple as scratching the back of your hand.  I've seen 'em fall out of the sky and stop on a dime time and again.  Of course practice makes perfect, and they had lots of it.

[teamnelson]

TM7, they're constantly being amended but I'll see if I can get a live copy from Afghanistan. Contractors are for the most part in noncombat roles; they are briefed on ROE and if in the course of their duties (I.e. riding a convoy to a FOB to fix a generator) they come under fire, they fall under the convoy commander, are subject to ROE, and may only fire in the defense. After Blackwater, contractors are not used in offensive operations. However, the ROE is written for law enforcement detention, not combat, so specops units may have contractors attached in advisory capacities, but not as designated shooters. This is all carefully debated at the coalition level. Bottom line is, we don't have mercenary infantrymen for hire conducting combat operations on our behalf. That's a violation of the LOAC, Geneva, and several other treaties. We do have a runaway specwar community, IMHO, but they are all under oath servicemembers subject to UCMJ and ROE.

[ironglow]

TM;
   I doubt much can readily be found as far as an official set of rules listed. Two main reasons being A) As TN said, they are constantly changing (usually more restrictive) , ...And B) Such lists are not usually published for public consumption.
   My information comes from those who have had to serve directly under these restrictive rules. Here is a roundtable discussion by some who have had to serve under these rules...  http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586461,00.html
   Some of the salient rules which serve to gall those who must face this enemy are the following (paraphrased);
 
   1) We must not return fire if civilians are present

  2) We must not bother women (or men) dressed in a burka ...even if 'she' is 6'5".

  3) Searches of residences for explosives, terrorists, explosives etc.,  must be pre-announced and accompanied by Afghan authorities.

 4) Searches must be announced to residents up to 72 hours ahead of the search.
   
      These are just some of the ridiculous rules being foisted upon our fighting forces. Terrorists realize that if they make sure there are some civilians nearby, they can practically fire at our troops with impunity. That is exactly why casualties are higher monthly in Afghanistan than they were in Iraq.
   The troops hands were partially tied in Iraq, but now they are shackled, double knotted and tied again..

[teamnelson]

There is a published ROE, it's not particularly secret. It is fluid though, particularly after the spike in casualties since Jan 2009.

Re: number of contractors. You may not be aware but most of those in Afghanistan are local afghanis, and most of those are implementing nation building projects using DOD and State dollars, for example paving roads, building schools and hospitals, etc. They are contracted through DOD, managed by military officers, but nevertheless a local guy doing a local job with no kinetic effect. Scrub the contractor list of those, and base support and then you'll have the number of non-afghani contractors which is who you'd be concerned about with re: ROE Relatively very very few contractors are in armed roles.

How many locals did we hire in the reconstruction of Japan, Germany, France? That's more analagous to what were seeing now.