obama, we are not at war with islam?????

[Spirithawk]

Well, at least you can't accuse me of being predjudiced. I don't trust anybody!   In every war ever fought, on every continent, since the begining of time, both sides believed that "THEIR GOD" was on their side making them right. Just once I'd so like to hear a leader say," We're fighting them because we just don't like them, PERIOD!" It's not the love of God that causes people to fight wars, it's hate and greed disquised as religion! Spout all the rederick you like but it's as simple as that. As  Lily Tomlin used to say, " And that's the truth!   " Then, admittedly, I'm just a Tsalagi heathen savage so what do I know? 

[FourBee]

DDZ ~ When will America wake up?

Good question....  That.   

At this point it will take a miracle.

[Pat/Rick]

Fourbee, hopefully it is a miracle. I would hate for this nation to come to the realization after a NBC event. I would think that miracle/nasty event are opposite sides of the coin and have a 50/50 chance. (Before a NBC event sounds far fetched, remember that our emergency services drill, train, and have logistics in place for just such a thing).

[DDZ]

Just another peaceful Muslim following their Islamic faith.

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=8982

[ironglow]

Just another peaceful Muslim following their Islamic faith.

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=8982

  Horowitz is brilliant ! This clip exposes the underlying motives of so many caught up in the slavish side of the game.I wish this would be put on the major networks to be shown periodically. I shall send this to many I know, asking them to pass it on. Obama and Bush should be shown this clip.
   This woman belongs to a group which has campus privileges with many of of our tax funded colleges and universities... Now try to tell us that the "best and brightest" are teaching/administering at those institutions ! They apparently wouldn't recognize a rattlesnake in their Prius..
      Anyone who can watch this clip and NOT UNDERSTAND there is a very ugly underbelly to much of Islam right here in our country, wouldn't make the grade as a detective with Barney Fife's police department !!!

[ironglow]

  TM;  

  I really believe you would gain credibility if you could simply ADMIT that there is a considerable portion of Islam that is bent upon world domination and are willing to do great violence to further their aims.
   Not asking you to say Islam itself is bent on this mission, I don't believe every Muslim is a terrorist or even a potential one, but clearly a reasonably sized portion of them are.
    You saw this woman endorse the mass slaughter of a population, and she is attending an American college ! What do you suppose the dialogue would be in an Islam owned university ?

   Hey, other forum members;
   Do you think TM's credibility would get a boost if he could just admit that SOME Muslims are terrorists, and SOME other Muslims support their ideas ?

[yellowtail3]

 TM;  

  I really believe you would gain credibility if you could simply ADMIT that there is a considerable portion of Islam that is bent upon world domination and are willing to do great violence to further their aims.
   Not asking you to say Islam itself is bent on this mission, I don't believe every Muslim is a terrorist or even a potential one, but clearly a reasonably sized portion of them are.
    You saw this woman endorse the mass slaughter of a population, and she is attending an American college ! What do you suppose the dialogue would be in an Islam owned university ?

   Hey, other forum members;
   Do you think TM's credibility would get a boost if he could just admit that SOME Muslims are terrorists, and SOME other Muslims support their ideas ?

I's say TM's credibility is just fine... but credibility here, as defined by the Echo Chamber, seems pretty lame: seems all one has to do to get it is spout some insipid 'we hate obama and muzzies!' tripe and and nod dumbly to same, and you're good to go.

[powderman]

DDZ. Thanks for that link. That godless scum should be deported along with the rest of them. They live among us, America is seriously infected with their cancer.  POWDERMAN.  

[Cabin4]

The "Echo Chamber" of people hating "Obama and the muzzies" is really just allot of people saying the same thing..... For a damn good reason.

Lets step back and take a good hard look around and see what we have on our hands in this country. Maybe we should put a list together of all the important items that impact the larger population and we can rate their condition (good, mediocre, bad, critical). How many do you think would come up good on any objective list, I ask?

[elhoward622]

Terrorism was not invented by the muslims and it used all over the world, everyday by a wide variety of religious and political groups.  I don't even know a muslim but please don't reduce the issue of extremist-islamic terrorism to simple racism and bigotry.  You can't punish an entire group of people because a tiny minority are murders.  That goes against what this country was founded upon.  Im not PC and think that we should pat down every granny so we dont "profile" a single middle easterner.  I just simply dislike racists and racism.  History shows that those lines of thinking always lead to events that should not have happened.  Our gov't needs to get it's A** in gear and figure out how to protect the country AND fix our economy so we can stop spending money we don't have and can never pay it off.  Well if the Chinese foreclose on us they will execute all the religious dissenters anyway so I guess it could be a moot point.   

[Cabin4]

 I just simply dislike racists and racism.  

You must dislike allot of Arabs,Muslims and Middle Eaterners then. These are some of the most racist people on the planet.

[elhoward622]

Yep, I despise hard-line Islamics who spread hate and bigotry.  You know you can put "________ are some of the most racist people on earth" and fill in that blank with just about anything.  If you look at a minority of hard-line christians you could come up with "these are some of the most racist people on earth."  Im not debating terrorists or terrorism here, Im just talking about racism.

[powderman]

You must dislike allot of Arabs,Muslims and Middle Eaterners then. These are some of the most racist people on the planet.




YEP. POWDERMAN. 

[elhoward622]

All Im saying is that is exactly how those islamic-terrorists sound.  They say that all Americans or all Christians or all jews are racist and want to kill them. 

[elhoward622]

Those terrorists just eat this kind of stuff up.  It just gives them more ammo to say to young muslims "look at those americans. See how they hate you.  It is us versus them and they want to get rid of you all."  I may be backwards, but I think that good old CIA cloak and dagger stuff is the only way to combat these terrorists.  Do like the mossad and just go take em out one at a time.  Bring our ground forces back home.

[powderman]

The godless ones are muslim first and foremost. Look at them living in former Christian countries, England, france, etc.  They demand their rights as muslims swearing loyalty to no nation except the nation of islam, and the pantywetters help them by appeasing these scum. No such critter as an American muslim. POWDERMAN. 

[SwampThing762]

Everyone is racist, at one time or another.  It is human nature to run down other groups.   However, some groups are more militant than others.  Islam just makes it a cultural and military matter by commanding the slaughter of those who refuse conversion.

ST762

[elhoward622]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel about muslims p-man?

[powderman]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel about muslims p-man?

I'm too shy and too concerned about offending the pantywetters and sympathizers  here, besides, that wouldn't be PC. POWDERMAN. 

[elhoward622]

Yeah it is too true that human nature is prone to racism and violence.  My point is that it you can't lump every single person of one faith into the same group.  Just like you can't say "all Christians do this.." It just isn't so.  The segment of the Islamic faith that preaches killing every infidel and implements that screwed up sharia law is scum for sure.

[elhoward622]

I really don't have a dog in the fight but I am history teacher and I like to see history done right.  I am currently trying to study the subject of Islam and Islamic terrorism.  It is a very convoluted subject and the Qu'ran, their bible, can not be read literally.  It is even worse than the REAL Bible.  The reason I am so interested is that there are few clear answers out there.  I'm having trouble making sense of it and I know most of you don't know what the hell your talking about either.

Most of the quotes we use are completely used wrong.  Islam means "submission" as in submission to God.  They believe in our God but not Jesus; kind of like Jews.  The famous verse from Surah 9 of their bible "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." is actually written about the event where Muhammad captured the city of Mecca from a pagan tribe of Arabs who were trying to get rid of Muhammad and stamp out the islamic movement.  The themes seems eerily similar to the start of Christianity and our Bible IMO but I have never seen anyone accuse them of lifting ideas.  Also the line  9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya [tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." appears to also deal with destroying the arab pagan tribes, much like Joshua did, and how they dealt with Christians and Jews.  It calls us "the people of the book."  The standard muslim policy was to capture territory and tax all non muslims.  It appears that after the Muslims captured most of the ME they stoped allowing people to convert because it hurt the revenue stream LOL.  For historical reference: the spread of Islam began after the fall of the Roman Empire.  The ME was broken up by various Arab tribes of all different religions and there were also many different tribes of Jews.  Muhammad apparently conquered all the ME but he didn't slaughter Jews or Christians.  They apparently had to pay a tax to keep their religion but were left alone.

Islam is for shore not a religion of peace, but I also am trying to find out where it all turns to mass killing.  The Qu'ran, according to my study, does not advocate wiping out Jews and Christians but only the pagans and tribes allied with them.  It appears there is the Qu'ran and then the Hadith.  Kind of an old-new test. thing i guess.  The Qu'ran preaches alot of violence but it is mostly restrained violence.  It commands to treat Jews and Christians with respect even though they are ruled and taxed.  The Hadith was not written by Muhammad and apparently is called into question for accuracy and truthfulness.  I assume that this is where the terrorists must draw from.  Also, there were many divisions along the line about Islma Sunni v. Shia and Sharia law etc. so I will see if this also plays into becoming more violent and less tolerant. 

I am going to study this more and I hope someone will help me because, frankly, i am curious.  Most of the stuff I see written is malarkey and bull crap is a nickel a ton.

[Pat/Rick]

As to the history of islam did they kill the infidels they conquered? Did they leave piles of corpses in their wake of conquest?
As to the theology of their holy book(s), I am not going to speculate that, kill the infidels, means anything but that. Or that making islam the only religion, touts tolerance for others. I wonder if Nick Berg told them "I'm trying to understand you".

[elhoward622]

Did you read my last post about the historical part there pat?  I clearly outlined what they did when they conquered.  Very similar to how Joshua treated the infidels in the Old Testament.  I'm not talking about what Saladin did during the crusades. No need to act like a jerk to me buddy.  I am telling you about the history of something.  I'm not talking about terrorists.

[elhoward622]

According to history Pat Islam conquered from the ME all the way to Spain and didn't wipe everyone out.  Where are you getting your facts from?

[Conan The Librarian]

We are not at war with islam. We are at war with people, all of whom happen to be islamic, most of whom live in islamic countries. All of whom follow the doctrines of islamic leaders who profess the teachings of the founder of islam. All of whom share the belief that non islamic people must die or be subjugated. And, according to our best information seem to have the sympathy of islamic people worldwide. See? We are not at war with islam.

We were not at war with germany during world war two either. We were at war with a minority of extremists who just happened to be german, and which reflected badly on the german people.

Sound like doubletalking BS to you? It's not. This is a nuanced argument.

[powderman]

PAT/RICK. True, I  agree.
Elhoward. What Joshua did was commanded by God himself. Theres no comparison between that and what the godless ones did, and are doing. Mohamed was a false prophet, and islam a false religion, more like a cult of hatred and death. POWDERMAN. 

[Pat/Rick]

Nope. I gave a two sentance concise description. Also I speculated as to myself having no desires to learn anything of their theology. Watching the beheading tapes showed me their intentions. Yes islam conquered alot of territory as the Persian Empire grew. Shia muslims. Shia is now coming back into power. Have we helped the re incarnation of the persian Empire? If you took that as me acting like a jerk to you, all I can say is that you took it in a manner not intended. I do not dispute your knowledge of history. I am an ameteur historian myself, I prefer colonial America thru the 1800's. Regards.

[elhoward622]

Conan, please don't compare the holocaust to backpack bombers.  That is absurd beyond all reason.  But in all actuality you summed it up quite right.  We are at war with a faceless group of unconnected networks of Islamic terrorists who occupy various countries.  Nothing nuanced about it.

Pat, I feel just as strongly about terrorism as you do.  It is just not as simple as we want it to be.  It would be easy if all muslims wanted to kill us.  Simple solution: kill em all.  But it is not.  Just like in colonial America: just because one band of Iroquois raid an American settlement doesn't mean that all Native Americans are guilty nor do they all think alike.  BTW Colonial America is my favorite time period too!!!!  There were no Shia Muslims did not arise until right around the time of the crusades some 300+ years after Muhammad. Interestingly enough the term "assassin" comes from the early Shia murders who would undertake suicidal assassination missions against crusaders and sunni muslims.  I wonder if that has something to do with the reason most suicide killers are Shia???

[Pat/Rick]

Assasin.I read, don't remember where, that the word came from hashish as those who would commit the assasinations would "partake in its use" prior to their deeds. Don't know if thats true or not, I don't recall seeing/hearing that anywhere else.  You are right not all native Americans took part in raids, though those left behind did not disclose the plans either right? But then We were the invaders at that time. I'll fault no man for defending his home  . fast forward>> are the muslims going to be our new invaders? Could be, although i believe a bit more time has to pass before we find out. Also alot of Native Americans wanted the trade with the europeans. I'm proud of my heritage but i can ascertain who got the short end of that stick.  The earlier history I have never been real interested in, I like bits and pieces but never really enough yet to get real interested in in depth reading. I have been searching for info on Ft Rains and Lugenbeel but they were Pre civil war and really only outposts. Cannot seem to get in touch with the historians at Ft Vancouver to see if they have any further info or the scope of records from there about the time. The two forts guarded the portage and portage railway at the cascades crossing on the Columbia River. I live within a stones throw as the exagerated saying goes of there. Much to my wifes chagrin I spend alot of time and money(?) in used book stores buying up history books. Oh well.  My son has started his schooling for a history major, he is using his GI Bill.  I also had a cousin whom was conscripted into the german army in WWII, her description of Adolf was, "Hitler vass a clazy mann". Sure do miss Anne she was a heck of a woman and the only person I've known to fly in a Stuka. But I'm really OT now so I'll stop.

[powderman]

Fact is they do accept Jesus in a fashion...just not your triune Pauline way.

tm#2. Most definitely they accept Jesus. Thats why they do everything possible to destroy everything he ever taught or built.
You still can't seem to get it right. It's GWOI, not gwot. Global war on islam. POWDERMAN.