obama, we are not at war with islam?????

[beerbelly]

elhoward622 another educated (read brain washed liberal) , But you are right Obama is not at war with Islam. But Islam is at war with us! From all I can gather they are winning because of people like you!

[powderman]

EH. You weant to really learn what islam is go to Dearborn Michigan or any of the other cities that they have infested like rats. Reading pro muslim junk will teach you nothing about the real world. Watch the news, read a paper, the truth is right in front of you. Islam is a false religion, a cancer, a boil on the butt of the entire world. Their mohamed was a false prophet. Why don't you check mohamed out??? You will find that he was a murdering, child molesting pedophile, certainly no prophet of God, satan yes, God no. All you have to do is open your eyes and look around you. POWDERMAN. 

[powderman]

tm#1, uhhh maybe tm#2 or 3. How many people using your name and computer? The word is REALISM, not extremism. POWDERMAN. 

[Pat/Rick]

TM7, your "questions for horowitz" bring up some interesting points. The topic I've always wanted to hear his ubiased, no holds barred comment on was the, USS Liberty incident. Could be some interesting reading.

[elhoward622]

Beerbelly, to quote Jeston Nash: "you don't know nothin about nothin mister."  Folks, I'm searching for truth.  I want facts.  I want to point to an item and be able to say "here, this is why these guys blow themselves up."  I don't trust religions, politicians, or tv news anchors.  If you want to believe whatever someone writes on a message board then go ahead.  I'll research on my own and find out for myself.  I want the truth regardless if it fits with my political views.  I honestly just want to see facts.  Why do folks get so offended when someone asks why?  Im not attacking anyone by trying to find the truth so don't attack me for posing a question or act like you know anything about my religious or political beliefs.  P-man, you seriously think watching the news or reading a paper will give you the truth? 

Please give some facts or reasons or logic. 

BTW: that is true about the Shia assassins and using marijuana. 

[elhoward622]

Pat/Rick does it right.  He found a scripture talking about killing infidels.  If you read it literally then that means go kill every person who doesn't bow down to them and convert.  Is that what the terrorists read when they go blow themselves up?  I don't know, don't even know a "godless one."  History shows that those Muslims didn't kill everyone because there wouldn't have been a non-muslim left alive in the ME.  The muzzies also occupied Spain forever and didn't kill everyone.  The muzzies even offered asylum to sepahardic jews escaping the inquisition.  There apparently is still a spanish-jew district in Istanbul.  To me this means that the verses about killing non-muzzies is out of context or Muhammad and his followers didn't do a good job of it.

I don't like or dislike Muslims.  Never even met one.  I hate terrorists and it is my gut reaction to hate and condemn Muslims.  The thing is, guys, I DO open my eyes.  I DO look at the real world.  It doesn't stand to reason that even a majority of Muslims want to kill us.  Look at odds, its the worlds fastest growing religion, so if there religion as it is meant to be practiced commands killing us then they are laying down on the job.  If terrorism was simply the proper practice of Islam then it stands to reason that there would be much more violence against us Christian Americans. 

My 2cents.  If you disagree then by all means help me figure it out.  I just want real, concrete answers.  Just hating them doesn't give me the ammo to debate the topic.

[beerbelly]

If you believe that only a small percent of Muslims’ want to kill us you are nuts. They are killing us as fast as they possibly can! Just look at the news there are attacks every day. Not always on Americans, on people that side with Americans.
  But they prefer to attack Americans. The great satin as they call the U. S. We need to make them believe , no make them know if they attack us we will level an entire city and do it every time they hit us. I will bet they would quit very fast!
    No , there are no innocents in war!
You may continue to study Islam, I learned all I need to know about them on 9-11!
                                     Beerbelly

[powderman]

I want facts.  I want to point to an item and be able to say "here, this is why these guys blow themselves up."



Then look at their unholy book, satans guide to domination, errrrrr, I mean koran. They believe all these lies about murdering non believers and  going to paradise as a reward. The godless ones murder innocents they go to hell, simple as that, but thats not what they are taught. God does NOT reward murderers. They are lied to from birth. The god they claim to worship they see through the eyes of mohamed, their false, pedophile dead prophet. The god mohamed preached about does not exist. Anybody that believes in islam would have to believe that God changed his mind about his only son Jesus christ and wants all traces of him wiped from our memory. Look around you, satan is alive and well. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

  Elhoward;
   You seem to be especially hung up on racism. Yes, racism exists today, but I doubt it is to the degree you see it. For the US, there is probably much less racism than at any time in our history.
  I am here to say there is nothing wrong with profiling, especially when all possible factors are taken into account. Profiling is an excellent law enforcement tool and has been used often in catching serial killers or any other serial crimes such as arson, rape and many others.
  I have said right here before, if the mad bombers profile matched my description and lifestyle, certainly I would expect that authorities might observe me more closely than most, and I would understand why. I would not then be angry at those trying to protect the public, but I would be furious at anyone who matched me in any way and pulled these crimes...he would be the scoundrel !
   As far as the stupidcide bombers killing themselves just to murder others, most often women and children...I won't pause to try to psychoanalyze such a beast. The fact that they did it is enough ! Enough reason to hunt them down and eliminate them... no need to do some PC analyzing.
  Using common sense is not racism..as I have said before, if the terrorists were white, senior Christians with large moustaches...I would understand why I should be checked and I would be outraged that somebody who looked and acted like me, caused me all the inconvenience,

  BTW: Those terrorists are still smoking something weird. I have talked with Marines who have raided terrorist filled houses. Often the Marines would find a central, large room where the perps sat around smoking from one of those "hookah" smokers. The smell was rank and the first thing the Marines did was to open all windows or smash them all, to get rid of the acrid smoke.
  Your judgement of Christians as "racist" is unwelcome. While much of the rest of the wortld..rich, poor , conservative, liberaland any other description sat around, it was the Christians who labored hard and long to outlaw slavery.  Today, it is only some Muslim countries that endorse slavery.

[Pat/Rick]

 A friend of mine was stationed in Turkey for 2 or 3 years while in the Air Force, his impression of all that is islam, is that they can have it. He has told me that he has interacted enough with muslims that the US should have annihalated everyone when they first screamed holy war. I was not as fortunate, I only spent two weeks in Turkey while on a NATO exercise. Islam wants to dominate. Now that may mean not killing everybody who is not of muslim faith. Thats fine. But it does strike me that they want all to be subject to their domination. And their laws as the sole law. Their way of life is contrary too ours, their laws contrary as well. saudi arabia will confiscate any holy books that are not islam, that tells me a whole lot about their tolerance of other ways of life. I will not yield to that absolute kind of tyranny. Kill us all? perhaps not, make us subject to their ways? absolutely. Thats enough of an equation there to tell me that islam wants our way of life gone. No, they are the enemy of the free world. I will fight and resist that as long as I can. The so called extremist kill not only westerners, they kill their own who are deemed not faithful enough.

[elhoward622]

Beerbelly, so what percentage of Muslims want to kill me exactly?  I seriously want to know.  P-man, have looked at their unholy book to see for yourself?  Listening to Rush on your lunch break doesn't count as a reliable source for information.  Pat/Rick if any Islamic country trys to take America over then we will bring the pain.  We can shut down any ME country in a conventional war quickly.  Saudi is home to tons of terrorists including some of the 9/11 crew.  Im not saying I want to take them home LOL.  BTW does anyone remember the young iranians protesting in streets for freedom and being shot down.  These mulluhs and hardline leaders do not represent their people's interests.

Ironglow,
Please read my statements.  You will see that we totally agree about profiling etc. and our shared hatred of terrorists.  Im talking about profiling all muslims via carpet bombs LOL!  Im simply talking about using common sense and forethought before we label everyone connected with a religion as out to cut my head off.  I don't see how you can disagree with me.  I am a shoot on sight-er for stupicide bombers.  Why does everyone get so offended by stopping to read and think.  Just like the Lib-Dems who wouldn't stop to read the Obamacare bill.  I refused to take their word that Obamacare was right and needed.  I refuse to take some folks on this board word that every Muslim is scum and wanting to come cut my head off.  I want to see some proof some logical thought behind it.  

America was one of the very last countries to outlaw slavery across the globe.  Im a Christian myself so I am comfortable with my religion I just understand that many, many people have used my religion to kill, maim and torture.  Christianity is probably covered with more blood than any other religion.  It has been used in ways Jesus is ashamed of.  Check the history of the Catholic Church.  

BTW I have heard from an ex-Iranian who escaped to the US that a large majority of iranian citizens are hooked on opiates and other hard drugs.  Makes them easily to control for Amadini-jihad.  According to that fellow it is encouraged by the gov't but is NEVER talked about in the media.

[Pat/Rick]

Absolutely, irans last vote riots were put down faster than tianniman square in the PRC. There are actually alot ( well not as many now, after the riots) iranians that do not want the oppresive extremist regime that they are under. As long as the mullahs and imams have a ready and willing "police crew" they will rule with an iron fist. If the political revolution in iran ever does effect their control we could possibly look forward to the days of the past when the shah was in power. That would  be, the pre ayatolla days.

[elhoward622]

Yeah, the overthrow of the Shah was such a mistake.  They complained about poverty and a heavy handed secret police.  Sharia Law and heavy handed Mullahs are much better LOL!  It amazes me how a minority can take over a country like that.  Just like the Shia takeover by Sadam in Iraq.  Strange how quickly we went from influencing the ME to our politicians groveling at the feet of OPEC. 

[Pat/Rick]

 saddam called out about a dozen on his cabinet on day one and had them executed, I amsure the ayatollah had no reservations of like actions.  The league of nations blue print for the ME was IMO an attempt at empire building and an arrogent act to think that western civilization would be able to plan an amicable relationship between tribes of an ancient and largely illiterate people. The probably most prime example of  "just butt out" that has ever existed. Our world is too far apart from the world of islam, I would predict that there will never be peace between the two and that we will see open conflict in our streets.Maybe after I'm long gone and rotting, but here none the less.

[powderman]

Our world is too far apart from the world of islam, I would predict that there will never be peace between the two and that we will see open conflict in our streets.Maybe after I'm long gone and rotting, but here none the less.



Right you are, it's coming soon, just as soon as they think they are strong enough. POWDERMAN. 

[elhoward622]

You are dead-center on this one Pat/Rick.  Meddling by the world powers post-WWI and post-WWII has caused, IMO, most of these problems.  You take the ME v. Israel issue.  The British promised to support a Jewish homeland after WWI all the while they promised the Arabs autonomy for allying against the Turks.  The British screw around with Palestine for a couple of decades and rule the small Jewish population with an iron fist and allow local Arabs to abuse the population.  Then they simply walk away and let the Jews take the whole of Palestine without figuring out what to do with the displaced Palestinians.  So, now all the ME hates Israel for simply coming into existence and also hate the Palestinians who make like the lost tribes of Israel and float on the breeze.  We also helped create the Taliban while we were squabbling over God-forsaken Afghanistan against Russia for some God-forsaken reason.  Our inaction, bowing down to OPEC because they brought our country to it's knees when they flexed their muscles, has also caused many problems and weakened American prestige and effective power.  Take our newest ME action: we invade Afghanistan, instead of actually capturing Bin Ladden we decide to fool around and then go and invade Iraq.  The only stable regime in the ME who keeps Iran at bay.  We blow them up, remove the gov't and military, and then leave.  This is a perfect power vaccum for an Ayatollah type to come in and set up a hard-line religious regime.  To me, the ME is one place where we sh*t and fell back in it, and keep slipping back in it.  
BTW: League of nations, UN its all the same: a toothless organization that merely drains us of money and manpower while simultaneously tying our hands behind our backs.  

[beerbelly]

elhoward622 , all Muslims want you dead or converted to Islam! What percentage of them are active in the holly war at any one moment in time is hard to say, but the one's that are not, are in one way or another supporting the one's that are!
                                     Beerbelly

[powderman]

EH. I agree with most of what you said but that land was given to Israel by God thousands of years ago to be theirs forever. Israel took nothing that it didn't already own. Israel is now partly occupied by 5 godless nations,  the palis are squatters that need to be removed. POWDERMAN. 

[Pat/Rick]

"The only stable regime in the ME who keeps Iran at bay"

That is exactly why Bush I and the coalition left saddam in power after Gulf War One. he was the only stabilizing military power in the region. That, and the fear that Iran would try for some "payback" had he been removed. So he stayed in office, though militarily defeated, still talked the talk, and kept his bad boy image alive. So much so that ,open defiance of the UN treaty, brought back an opened can of whoop butt.

Our meddling in the ME has not stopped yet, the politico's are still trying different angles and being met with resistance at every turn. The 9-11 bombers all took root in and with Saudi money, Why did we invade another nation? Why does Saudi Arabia get a "free pass"? They confiscate all christian religous articles at the airports custom area, but the US still plays nice with them? The royal saudi family gives out payoffs on both sides of the fence, payoffs to terrorists that would attack the RF of Saudi A for being "friends" with the US. I am sure there are some more defining instances, but I ask again, why does saudi arabia get a free pass? And why do we train their combat pilots??

[powderman]

Sure..I'd like to ask him about the USS Liberty, the Beirut barracks bombing, Lavon Affair, various massacres especially the machine gunning in the Cave of the Patriarchs by Baruch Goldstein now a national hero as is Pollack the spy, and the USS Cole attack...not to mention the really Big Event (as they say). But I'm sure he would be evasive and condescending...like being in the echo chamber here... when we get close to the edge of some truth and concern.




tm. Gosh, I didn't know Horrowitz was present at all these events, why would he know? POWDERMAN. 

[elhoward622]

Right on pat/Rick.  That's why I question everything I hear or my government says: Just like our issue at hand.  Just like you said, we invade "the sick old man" aka sadams Iraq while Yemen, Syria,and Saudi are all harboring our enemies.  They gladly take our money, smile, and then give it to terrorists.

[powderman]

No reason for one red cent to go to any of these godless countries who hate us. POWDERMAN. 

[Pat/Rick]

+1 Powderman.

TM I'll give your questions a shot.
#1 as long as they are as radical as he is,  No
#2 Bombing the ones who do not believe in their radical beliefs, or are of a different sect, Eliminates the competition
#3 Who benefits, hard to say, the installation of fear to gain converts has been played out throughout history by many regimes. A show of strength?
#4 What evidence, other than "MO", signatures,anybody could take credit for the act. But I doubtthere's more than a few sects using the practice.
#5 How come, Am I at liberty to broaden that?, El Al ticket counter in California, Jewish center in Seattle, The latest incidences in Portland,OR, The DC sniper, Ft Hood, The muslim who drove the SUV into people, etc
#6 I'll pass for now.
 Sorry, mis understood #5 but I'll let my origional remain. Okay #5, I do believe that money buys immunity, enough in the contribution envelope and you get a free pass. In short, a protection racket.
I don't know if that was the tack you were looking for, but for the sake of discussion maybe that will open another angle for others to answer and hash out.

[Pat/Rick]

Right on pat/Rick.  That's why I question everything I hear or my government says: Just like our issue at hand.  Just like you said, we invade "the sick old man" aka sadams Iraq while Yemen, Syria,and Saudi are all harboring our enemies.  They gladly take our money, smile, and then give it to terrorists.

 Maybe one day we'll all just get back to being Americans and doing what is best for America instead of somebody's bank account. I think alot of folks are starting to question our gov't and what they say. Both d's and r's, liberals and conservatives, and left and right, (although.... if people start at twelve o'clock and go left while others go right, and a few go far enough they'll meet about six o'clock right? If so does fascism start at seven o'clock or at five o'clock  )

Maybe stopping foreign aid is the best, (I believe we should stop FA). Perhaps the best solution would be let whatever nation is in charge of the UN, to let their nation be responsible for ALL global foreign aid and ALL things globally military, for their appointed term.I'll bet that would stop alot of the crap we see now days. Might even get people to butt out of other nations affairs. This has been a fun thread.

[Pat/Rick]

Yeah. I picked up that you were talking about western ME in your folowing paragraph  .
 Bombing women and childen in market places .  Is he bombing them to instill that more people will die if the west doesn't leave? Blaming their deaths on the evil west? If the west leaves the bombing will stop? Is he murdering them because they do not belong to his sect and believe the things he does? (bobble heads). or does he and other nut bars kill women and children because they ARE psycopathic killers as alot of folks suspect?
Yep, karzai also expressed that there wouldn't be much difference if he was to side with the taliban. As long as nut bars want to be in charge and rule the world we have a very good chance at seeing  people tearing things down only to say, "if you follow me things will get better".
 My pill choice is only dictated by my doctor, I suppose color could be dictated by time of day.

[Pat/Rick]

Lets see the El Al ticket counter attack left one dead IIRC it was about four years ago IIRC. The Seattle jewish center was about the same time frame but later deaths were multiple as were wounds. Gunshot. Hard to remember when anymore, what do we have into this now? Eleven years?  War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. (Orwell)

[Pat/Rick]

Yet another example.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/12/bomb-making-suspect-pleads-not-guilty-ordered-held-without-bail.html

[powderman]

The DC sniper was one of our own who went bonkers as was Hasan.



tm#1. WRONG. They only held citizenship, certainly not Americans. There is no such critter as an AMERICAN muslim, their cult comes first, they just live here. Stop all immigration of muslims, get rid of ALL the non citizens. POWDERMAN. 

[elhoward622]

Bombing women and childen in market places .  Is he bombing them to instill that more people will die if the west doesn't leave? Blaming their deaths on the evil west? If the west leaves the bombing will stop? Is he murdering them because they do not belong to his sect and believe the things he does? As long as nut bars want to be in charge and rule the world we have a very good chance at seeing  people tearing things down only to say, "if you follow me things will get better".-Pat/Rick

That is pretty much how I see it Pat/Rick.  I think me and you are thinking on the same plane about this stuff.  

TM, what exactly do you see as propaganda there?  Even Pablo Escobar used bombings and terror on his own people to take over Columbia.  BTW, I was using the "hashishans" example of suicidal/fundamentalist violence used by Shia hitmen against Saladin and other Sunnis and Crusaders to show that suicidal assassinations is not exactly media creations.

 Don't take any offense but let's just put selective cognition aside for a moment,,, you say you want a little truth, discount tel-a-version and the talking heads; yet go ahead and unquestionabley accept the suicide bomber stories, mostly with very little or no substantial evidence....all brought to you by mass media matrix basically just talking heads saying another suicide bomber blew up a market killing women and children. Seems like you don't question logic on this stuff.
I'm not saying that suicide bombing (or murder) by islamics doesn't exist...seems like suicide missions have existed in all cultures from the beginning of time. In fact, I think it would be pretty easy to recruit a bomber, or mentally feeble and bereaved people that have lost entire famlies and their homes to Hegomony the Beast....but to bomb their own people and kids,,,and avoid islamic client states and arch foes....seems nonsensical....evidence shows this to be the case if one looks a little closer.-TM7

IMO I question everything I see or hear.  My grandpappy used to say, "Don't believe anything your hear and only half of what you see."  You even admit that there are suicide bombers.  Not, just suiciders but regular bombings.  That is simply terrorism to disrupt the fabric of society like Pat/Rick said.  So, TM, what is your take on it?  Does it mean fundamentalist terrorism is hoax used by some shadowy organization bent on world domination?  Or, does it mean that the fundamentalist terrorism is very localized and/or disjointed?  

[Pat/Rick]

TM, Thanks for the link.  I have absolutely no faith in my government and probably will not until they realize that we have a Constitution and BOR's that they are supposed to govern by, IMO, collectively they don't. Included in that lack of faith is the understanding that they may, in some cases, be behind some of the recruiting and destruction themselves. How much?? Without being privy to the inside, we may never know. We may find out in a few decades or never.
 And I do agree, IF their truly was a global war on terror, why wasn't the borders sealed, why wasn't the student visa's for all students from muslim nations revoked, why wasn't the bank accounts sealed for the so called terror nations? There are alot of questions that will never be answered. Trust me when I say I will not rely on a truthful answer from my government. Operation Northwoods modernized just a little?? Yep, I have thought about it. Quite a bit actually.