Well business back to the old ways.

[billy_56081]

I'll pay for my own services, please stop stealing from me to pay yours.

[Cabin4]

Why do we want to cut services for everyone so that top 3 percent can keep more money.  I just do not get that unless you are the 3 percent.

You said it: "So that top 3 percent can keep more money". Its thier money, not your or the governments. So Yes.

[wareagleguy]

You do understand that a person that makes more money also get more benefit from it.  There is not an infinite amount of money and for a government to function the folks with more should pay more.  When the government goes to war to protect assets around the world those assets are not distributed equal but the folks that have more asset will get more benefit from that protection (military force if need be).  So, you not only want those that got more protection to keep a even larger portion?  How the those fat cats must love people like you....sheep.

[squirrellluck]

Kinda makes me wonder... how much taxes people that are all for more taxes for the rich pay. I mean after the tax deductions, exemptions, and tax credits what kinda numbers are we looking at. I believe it much too easy to endorse plans that cost you nothing personally. It is like non property owners being allowed to vote on property tax issues. If you have no skin in the game what right do you have to make the rules? I am not wealthy nor do I wish to pay more taxes but I believe taxes should be straight across the board. No special treatment. That's the garbage that got us here. Well, that and the jealousy because one does not have as much someone else. So basically if you work hard and invest and gamble on yourself and make it. What you earn is the right to take care of those that don't take the chance or don't want to work? It is very easy to spend someone elses money ain't it.

[billy_56081]

Well said Squirrel, the jealous cry babies are mad because someone had more than they did.

[Conan The Librarian]

I'm definitely not in the top 3% but I work for people that do. I want them fat and happy. Keeps me working and earning.

[magooch]

We can talk theory all day long.  What I know is that under Clinton and the Dumocrats, I was making less and paying a lot more taxes.  When the "Bush tax cuts" came along, I was making more money and paying a lot less taxes.  I was able to buy stuff and live a lot better.  I presume a lot of other people had the same experience and unemployment was very low.  Something must have been working right.  However, something was also working against the good and that was that government spending went out of control and that's how we got where we are.

Just because someone is rich, doesn't mean that it is preventing someone else from getting rich.  There is not a finite amount of wealth.  You don't have to sit around and hope to snatch a piece of someone elses pie--bake your own.

If the government were to confiscate all the privately owned wealth, it wouldn't begin  to remove the deficit, but it would remove our economy.  The wealthy already pay much, much more than their share of taxes.  If you think otherwise, just win the lottery and see who really wins.

[Cabin4]

You do understand that a person that makes more money also get more benefit from it.  There is not an infinite amount of money and for a government to function the folks with more should pay more.  When the government goes to war to protect assets around the world those assets are not distributed equal but the folks that have more asset will get more benefit from that protection (military force if need be).  So, you not only want those that got more protection to keep a even larger portion?  How the those fat cats must love people like you....sheep.

They already pay a higher % rate of thier income. You democrats all seem to think this country has a tax revenue problem. It does not. It simply spends too much. Collecting more tax is not going to solve the problem. Taking money out of the private sector with increased taxes will only continue to hurt the job situtation. Big government is not the answer. Thats what the real sheep beleive in. Those of us who want to shrink the size of government and stop the overspending are name called sheep by the real sheep.

[ironglow]

The GOP loves people like you.  Go ahead a eat the crubs that fall from the table.  No me, I want to sit at the table, thank you.

And another thing...
When the second richest man in America says that the GOP is wrong and the top 3 percent should pay more you need to listen.

   I am no Republican, but I sure am not Marxist enough to be today's Democrat either.  ..But this I can tell you..WE ARE ALL PAYING TOO MUCH TAXES !

        Your statement about the rich getting theirs first is quite inaccurate. The Republicans obviously have no such demand; from what I understand, they asked no special order in which they wanted the Democrats to refrain from raising taxes. Fact is, the Republicans want NOBODY'S taxes raised and that is exactly where most thinking Americans stand..we are already being TAXED TOO MUCH !!!

   You can tell old Warren Buffet and all the billionaires who think we are not paying enough taxes, that he/they can write an extra check for a couple billion to put in with the taxes they owe...the IRS will accept it and it is legal. So far, I have not heard of any of those billionaires writing that extra check...even though they could be setting the example for others.
  Obviously Warren Buffett doesn't want to pay more taxes..but he wants everybody else to pay more taxes..

[gypsyman]

Let me try this again, as the first one went into never never land. Main reason I would love to see drastic cuts in govt. They don't deserve it. Thousands of jobs with Dept. of Education and energy, all with benifits out the kazoo. Very unnecessary. Politicians voting themselves pay raises, with lifetime income's and health insurance. These bastards arn't worth it. In the mean time, I'll hang onto my guns and Bible. gypsyman

[Cabin4]

That’s really the point. Democrats/Liberals always think the government has a "right" to take your earnings. Its THE fundamental issue. They think that the money you earn is really not yours first, it’s the governments money first. There is never enough government spending for these people. They always think the government has to try and solve everything. People who make a high wage are always a target to shoot at yet these are the same people and businesses creating all the real private sector jobs while the big government uses our tax dollars to directly implement programs and policy that destroy jobs that are here and off-shore the rest.

The simple fact is this government spends too much. It’s that simple. And giving it more money to spend is not going to fix the spending problem.

[Dixie Dude]

Well, if they eliminated OSHA (unnecessary as insurance companies used to handle this), Energy Dept. (never solved the energy problem), Education Dept. (go back to state controled), eliminate farm subsidies (unless they buy up excess and store it for national emergencies, and use for comodities for welfare instead of food stamps).  Make manditory going to school and drug tests as prerequisites to welfare or any government program, and have time limits you are on welfare.  They need to lease the western lands holding the 200 year supply of oil for development (money off leases, and cuts imported oil keeping money at home providing jobs).  Eliminate the health care bill, pass reasonable legislation like allowing insurance companies to cross state lines, compete for services.  We can always make manditory you have minimum health care, like car insurance.  Close military bases in Europe as they are unnecessary.  Don't get into unnecessary wars.  

Also, Have a meeting with industry leaders to find out what it would take to bring factories back to the US, and implement those stratigies to bring back some jobs.  Everyone is tired of buying Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Taiwan, Phillipine stuff and foreign oil.  Is it regulations, taxes, unfair foreign competition?  Do we need to streamline regulations? Have lower business taxes?, have tarriffs on imported goods?  

Build the border fence and eliminate illegals, who drain the system of freebies, yet contribute no taxes.  

Either make legal some less dangerous drugs or get serious about eliminating them.  The chemical used to process cocane is only made in two countries (US and Germany) by 3 different companies, yet 90% of this chemical is sent to Colombia and other South American countries.  HMMM, we could stop exporting the chemical and the price of cocane would skyrocket to beyond affordablity.  

Teenagers need jobs to keep them out of trouble, like drinking and drugs.  So, have a lower minimum wage for part time teens working or eliminate minimum wage altogether.  When I was young it only applied to companies with over 500 employees or 300 employees.  I worked at a hamburger joint for $1.35 per hour and the minimum wage was $1.60.  I also worked 60 hours a week in the summer to save for my first car.  

[Conan The Librarian]

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Top 10% of wage earners pay almost 60% of the taxes. Bottom 50% pays under 3%. This has created a moral hazard that can determine the outcome of elections. We now have a system where there are enough people who pay no taxes can elect people to give them favors and entitlements. This is the real story of taxation in America. It is a very dangerous thing. Recent examples of this include the Nanny State in post-war Britain, which led to investment and business fleeing Britain with alarming suddenness and finality.

My belief about the republican party is that they saw this trend and tried to out-democrat the democrats, but failed. Meanwhile the democrats successfully went farther and farther to the left.

Consider the Minnesota governors race in 2010. It is still being contested and recounted, but the probable winner is Mark Dayton. He ran his campaign specifically on increasing taxes on the wealthy, and increasing benefits to unions and teachers. This happened at a time when the state is losing businesses, increasing taxes so alarmingly that Minneapolis is having a true property tax revolt, essential services are being cut, but foo foo projects like light rail are being funded. Business  people are beside themselves with frustration, but more and more people are on the public dole, and they all vote.

[Dixie Dude]

When our country was founded, only property owners could vote, thus the westward movement to acquire land for homesteading.  Later it was all free men, then women were allowed to vote.  I think you should pass a civics test to vote.  You need to be able to read a newspaper at least, so you can form an educated opinion.  Also if it were me, only taxpayers could vote, because the the only ones who have a real stake in what is done with their tax money.  Enough is enough already.  Too much government spending, too many taxes, no real advancement.

[wareagleguy]

Let us not stop there.  Let's make your vote count by your income.  Let's say the person that makes million a year his vote counts twice.   Seems to what many are talking here.  If you do not understand that as income rises so does the benefit from government services you just do not get it.

Do a little reading about the American Revolution and Sam Adams and you will understand where I come from.  He was at the forefront of the independence movement to cut out the kings taxes but it was mainly because if HIS assets he was defending.  I am glad for the revolution and may Americans died but he not only did well he made a ton of money.  He should pay more because many paid everything.  Kinda sounds like Iraq does it not?

[Dixie Dude]

You know America's standard of living at the time of the revolution was the highest in the world.  We didn't want to pay taxes on benefits we didn't get.  With our own militia, we could defend ourselves.  We didn't need British troops.  If you look at the poor in America today, their average square footage on their living space is about equal to the European middle class.  The average American poor also has TV's, vehicles, radios, refrigerators, washers, dryers, etc, about equal to middle class Europeans.  So, they really don't need anymore help.  It has become a hand out instead of a hand up.  If we keep having this class warfare, our nation is doomed like others before it.  We need a flat tax.  Rich have too many deductions, poor don't pay any, and now the lower middle class don't pay any.  Russia adapted a flat tax after communism failed.  So do a lot of other countries.  Rich actually pay less because of their deductions, or donations to their foundations or charities.  They have a lot of tax write offs also, like vehicles, vehicle expense, used in their business, etc.  Strange most rich billionairs are liberal and vote democrat. 

[Cabin4]

Now take it one step deeper and define a "capitol gain" as it relates to being the culprit.

[Dixie Dude]

My wife manages her money with buying and selling stock.  She pays a 15% capital gains tax on anything she makes during the year.  It will go up to 20% come January IF the tax rate is not extended.  This will apply to ALL 401-k plans and pensions.  So much for saving for retirement.  People who don't pay taxes don't understand this.  I'm personally tired of paying taxes for freeloaders who don't pay taxes.  Also, money invested in the stock market or bond market help these companies grow thus creating jobs, especially if the companies you invest in are start up domestic companies or American manufacturing companies who actually make things here.  So the loop hole is billionaires who invest and pay a lower capital gains and don't actually work and pay income tax.  However people who invest say $100,000 of their hard earned money are not billionairs and should have to pay more that 15% on capital gains.  Small investors will be rooted out and their 401k's squashed with higher capital gains.  Also family farms worth over a certain amount is subject to the death tax thus killing family inheritance and continued ownership.  Causes American families to sell off assets sometimes to foreigners just to pay the taxes.  This is all in the tax codes being voted on.  It isn't just about income tax. 

[Conan The Librarian]

If I invest some money and it grows, then I get taxed on the growth.

Fair, right?

To a point, perhaps, but we the laws do not take inflation into account. So, if you had invested $1 fifteen years ago and that investment is now worth $2, you get taxed on the dollar that the investment earned. There's only one problem: A dollar back then was worth $2.50 in today's dollars. So, you get to pay tax on an investment that has not even kept up with inflation.

Everybody that lost big on their 401k's recently might be in that situation. Keep an eye on it.

[Cabin4]

I'm baiting TM to give us the answer but I can cut to the chase. Cap Gains are yes, certain growth in a stock, mutual fund, ect. But it's also a tax on investment in business in general. We are a "capitalist" economy. Our economy needs and requires capital investment to run, grow, thrive and exist. We need big money investment from the well intended rich to keep our economy growing. We require investment capitol in all stages of businesses from small to the largest. There are firms and people out there that keep our economy moving by investing in businesses and they make a living off the return on that business investment. How can new business grow If we tax the crape out of capital investment in a capitalist economy? By doing so you squelch/reduce the return on investment and you degrade the return side of the investment equation. The tax rate is a significant line item in any investment scenario. It’s enough to make or break the deal. Raising taxes on anything (income, Cap Gains, ect) is just plain stupid when the economy needs capital investment and private sector spending more than ever.

Our government simply spends too much it does not tax too little. That is a fallacy brought to you by the big government liberals. They want more money so they can expand government programs, control the economy more, redistribute wealth and control your life. This is what the real war is all about. All the “fair share of tax” BS is just a smoke screen.

[Swampman]

I see no reason for the rich to pay more taxes than the poor.  Do away with Earned Income Credit.  Let everyone pay the same rate.  Do away with the IRS.

[scootrd]

In 2008, the Government Accountability Office found that “two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005. (exactly what our founding fathers didn't want)

Most folks don't realize our founding fathers believed in excise tax's only ..not personal income taxes.
They believed only tax the companies that made and sold products. Those companies were to recoup their excise tax at market price points when their product was sold to consumers. It wasn't until 1862, Abraham Lincoln signed The Revenue Act of 1862 into law. The tax was levied on personal incomes between $800 and $10,000 which were taxed at a 3% rate. Higher income was taxed at a 5% rate. This ensured that the tax was based on the person’s ability to pay.

The Revenue Act of 1862 underwent many changes after the war and was finally repealed in 1872. In 1895 the Supreme Court declared it to be unconstitutional because it was considered an illegal direct tax.

It wasn't until the 16th amendment passed in 1913 that the Govt was authorized by law to collect taxes on a persons income. 

[Cabin4]

TM, We have the highest corp. tax rate in the industrialized world. Yes, it’s all broke because of the banking crisis from loans being given to people who cannot afford it (great government regulation there!!). In addition, our state and federal governments are spending too much. There is no tax revenue problem. The government needs to stop trying to stimulate the economy by devaluing the dollar (printing money like they are in QE2) and stop so called stimulus and bail outs. Stimulus spending and bail outs are the government’s attempt to provide "capitol investment" that suppose to happen in the private sector. Obama’s 1 trillion dollar "Investment & Recovery Act" is a good example of how the ROI works when politicians try to play the role that private investment capital is suppose to be. The ROI is all about how many votes it can garner not how sound the investment is from a business perspective.

I'm fine with tax fairness but I am not with "Class Warfare" as a means to design tax policy. The fact is we need investment capitol unlocked from the private sector. Raising the capital gains tax rate will reduce investment when we most need it. Raising the income tax rate will only divert money from private sector spending and transfer it to government spending were it produces little in terms of real product producing jobs. the government cannot build a factory and start building a product...so why would we give them money to create jobs??

[Cabin4]

In 2008, the Government Accountability Office found that “two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005. (exactly what our founding fathers didn't want)

Why and how is this happening? Answer: We have the highest corp tax rate in the industrialized world and this provides an incentive for business to set up operations and legal entities all over the world in lower income tax countries. They funnel the income from sales activity in those countries through the lower taxing legal entity (The Netherlands, Germany, Hong Kong, ect). If our corp tax rate was "competitive", it would provide incentive for the revenue to be funneled through their US legal entity.

I work for a smaller publically traded USA based company. We have 30 or so legal entities around the globe to funnel local sales revenue through those entities and pay tax in those lower taxing countries. Perfectly legal and when your margins are under pressure from international firms you compete with, you do what’s required to make money. We would much prefer to claim these sales through the US entity but the tax rate is too high and it would erode our margins to the point of being uncompetitive.

[Dixie Dude]

China has no corporate income tax.  I think the easiest way to make tax fair is do away with income tax and have a national sales tax.  Everything gets taxed.  Corporations will pay more because they buy more to produce their products.  Rich pay more for what they buy.  Poor pay less because they don't buy second homes and yatchs.  To make it help the poor, you might not tax groceries (food only) or medical expenses.  You would pay the tax at a restaurant or for cosmetic surgery.   

[scootrd]

In 2008, the Government Accountability Office found that “two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005. (exactly what our founding fathers didn't want)

Why and how is this happening? Answer: We have the highest corp tax rate in the industrialized world and this provides an incentive for business to set up operations and legal entities all over the world in lower income tax countries. They funnel the income from sales activity in those countries through the lower taxing legal entity (The Netherlands, Germany, Hong Kong, ect). If our corp tax rate was "competitive", it would provide incentive for the revenue to be funneled through their US legal entity.

I work for a smaller publically traded USA based company. We have 30 or so legal entities around the globe to funnel local sales revenue through those entities and pay tax in those lower taxing countries. Perfectly legal and when your margins are under pressure from international firms you compete with, you do what’s required to make money. We would much prefer to claim these sales through the US entity but the tax rate is too high and it would erode our margins to the point of being uncompetitive.

Do you truly believe not taxing Corps or lessening the tax will somehow magically morph into them passing on products at less cost?
All it will do is shift the overall Tax Burden even more on individuals (not what our founding fathers envisioned) and increase overall corporate profit margins. A cut in the corporate income tax will not bring back this revenue. Companies have developed practices for sheltering their income overseas (in socialist countries by the way).

It's interesting to me Republicans hate Socialists.
Yet want to instill Socialist Tax models for Corporations here in the U.S.

John McCain decries middle class tax cuts as "socialism" because they spread the wealth around.
 What are tax cuts for corporate America and the wealthy then?

[nomosendero]

In 2008, the Government Accountability Office found that “two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005. (exactly what our founding fathers didn't want)

Why and how is this happening? Answer: We have the highest corp tax rate in the industrialized world and this provides an incentive for business to set up operations and legal entities all over the world in lower income tax countries. They funnel the income from sales activity in those countries through the lower taxing legal entity (The Netherlands, Germany, Hong Kong, ect). If our corp tax rate was "competitive", it would provide incentive for the revenue to be funneled through their US legal entity.

I work for a smaller publically traded USA based company. We have 30 or so legal entities around the globe to funnel local sales revenue through those entities and pay tax in those lower taxing countries. Perfectly legal and when your margins are under pressure from international firms you compete with, you do what’s required to make money. We would much prefer to claim these sales through the US entity but the tax rate is too high and it would erode our margins to the point of being uncompetitive.

Very good post Ca4, but the Lib view is that they want wealth dist. period!! They are in good company.

http://10pillarsofcommunism.com/

[Cabin4]

Yes but there is no magic involved. Business has to make a profit. They will leverage the path of least resistance to do so. The US corp tax structure is a incentive to do business elsewhere. So, if you change the tax structure to be more business friendly, you improve the situation and you become more attractive to business. Look at what Texas is doing to California. Same thing just on a localized basis. Texas has reduced its corp tax structure and business is moving there from California and other states. the same principals apply internationally.

[jimster]

Why do we want to cut services for everyone so that top 3 percent can keep more money.  I just do not get that unless you are the 3 percent.

One thing first...there are lots of "sevices" that can be cut, if you think that trillions of tax dollars out of our pockets is all lagit, someone is lying through their teeth to you.

Second thing is, top percent of the wealthy already pay more than their share of the total taxes, there is no way to legislate taking more from them, they will pick up their toys and go home, see what unemploment is then?  By the way, how is that going so far? Not working so well is it? You can't force people with money and the drive to have a business to stay in business if they get sick of paying more than their share.  Also, if they are smart enough to make money, they will be smart enough to keep their money.
If they do decide to stick around with higher taxes, they pass it on to you and me...we pay the higher taxes when they raise the prices of the products, surprised you have not noticed this.  And no...you can't legislate that either.  

Basically...your fighting to get someone elses money transfered to (where?) because our government is out of control, and I'm wondering at what level of "servitude" should the people with their OWN money be at when it comes to bailing out a corrupt government that spends way too much money, and uses people like yourself as a tool to get it transfered, to....where?  The black hole?

I also work for the 3-5%....I say get off their backs, we have layed off enough people and have a hard time paying the bills because everyone wants the money that belongs to the founders of this business.  It does not belong to the government or anyone else just because they want it.
Best way to kill needless spending programs is to cut off the money first, they will die on their own, you will NEVER legislate spending control. It must be forced.

And lastly...I heard some whining about "republicans"...almost as if you trust the democrats more?  Odd....republicans wreck things slower than the openly socialistic dems.
I would rather break things slower myself.....guess it don't matter much in the end

[Dogshooter]

This thread is utterly despicable for its narrow focus on what the politicians are telling you. Wake up! The hazard to the country is that today nearly 50 percent of the income earners pay no income tax. This means that elections can be dominated by people who vote themselves favors for themselves while having no vested interest in the cost of things. Wake up!

That "top 2%" includes small businesses, not just individuals. If you think for one nanosecond that decisions have not already been made concerning your employability by the people who have to pay these taxes, you are very much mistaken. Your skills are worth a fraction of what they were worth three years ago, and it is because of US tax, fiscal, and monetary policy. You have been royally screwed, permanently, by the people you are quoting and getting your information from. The people that once had an incentive to hire you, now have the strongest incentives ever not to hire you. Need proof? Quit your job, then try to find another one. That little exercise will sober you up promptly.

I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is too much government (financed by too many taxes, and loans from China). If we don't wake up and start cutting the spending, and cutting WAY back on entitlements, we will be exactly what the Dems want, another European country that is broke. And I will say something that will probably hurt some feelings here. ANYBODY that has been receiving unemployment benefits for more than a couple of months is a welfare recipient. I know a lot of people that have had many opportunities to work but refuse to "lower" themselves to accept the jobs offered. I got laid off from a 6 figure job and worked for $6.00 an hour at a local pawn shop till I found a better job.