Author Topic: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis  (Read 3955 times)

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Offline Parrott-Cannon

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2010, 04:52:48 AM »
The range I refer to is the range in the tabualation---1215.5.  If its feet then that equates to 400 yards

Yes it is in feet.
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. (Thomas Jefferson)

Offline Parrott-Cannon

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2010, 06:37:03 AM »
I wonder what percentage of energy is lost due to gas escaping around the projectile before it exits the bore? Looks like it might be substantial, considering that the fireball appears to peter out quite a bit before the jug is seen.

The flow equations are discussed on the following link:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choked_flow
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. (Thomas Jefferson)

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2010, 09:04:54 PM »
   Just thought it might be interesting to post a series of frame capture stills from the movie we made of Ernie's bowling ball heading for the stratosphere from Cut Bank, Montana.  We don't really expect to gather any data for analysis from this one, but rather, we thought it would offer a unique glimpse into what muzzle blast and trailer jump is all about.  Despite laboriously building two 4' X 8' timber cribs under trailer, directly under the Paixhans Monster Mortar, there still was quite a bit of trailer jump and resulting, mortar jump.  It starts in frame # 22 and ends in # 37.  A minor, secondary mortar jump starts in #39 and ends 4 or 5 frames later.   Hard to believe the trailer jumped like that; 90% of the weight was on those stout timber cribs after I pounded the large, tapered wooden wedges in place between the trailer bottom and the top of each timber crib.

     Using one and a half pounds of Fg powder, we launched Ernie's ball across the mowed field, over the grassland, above the plowed field, over more grassland and into the next section.  We had about 49 people observing that shot, but not one saw that 16 pound bowling ball as it sizzled skyward at 60 degrees.  Not even by studying the clip, filmed at 600 FPS, can you get a peek at that ball.

     Just before the trailer tremors start, look at the area of the deck immediately to the left of the mortar.  Dust jump!  Concussive effects of the compressed air of the muzzle blast.

The movie is way too long to post, almost 6 minutes.

Tracy and Mike

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Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2010, 03:10:35 AM »
...and I know where the ball was found.

Offline Parrott-Cannon

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2010, 04:37:00 AM »
How far did the ball go?
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. (Thomas Jefferson)

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2010, 05:18:51 AM »
From the position of the  Mortar to the spot where a ball was found is 2.79 Google Earth miles.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2010, 09:29:07 AM »
Is the location reasonably where the one shot from the mortar could have gone?  That is a long way and we are lucky it wasn't through someone's roof if that one is ours.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2010, 10:17:28 AM »
      Come on southern Cal. guy, remember Sgt. Friday's (Jack Webb's) favorite line, "Just the facts, ma-am, just the facts."  And please consider this line from Sherlock Holmes that we borrowed from Victor3's posting salutation,  "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."  Sherlock Holmes

    Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2010, 11:15:00 AM »
As I recall, you were aligned generally south to south southeast and the prevailing wind was from the west.  So if that ball was found somewhat southeast of our location, then I would consider it in a reasonable location.  If it were found someplace else, then I would question whether it is the ball you shot and consequently the range.   ;D
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2010, 12:01:52 PM »
Houses, roofs? In wheat fields, not a chance....

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2010, 01:04:12 PM »
Isn't one of the prime safety tenets "Know your backstop."?   ;D
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
Isn't one of the prime safety tenets "Know your backstop."?   ;D

It was barley....

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2010, 02:04:18 PM »
Thought you said it was wheat.   ;D
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2010, 02:27:22 PM »
Wheat field is generic, knowing your backstop identifies the field as barley.....

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2010, 02:47:44 PM »
What is 2.79 miles downrange of the firing line of the new range?  Somewhere near the Old Kevin Highway?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2010, 02:50:15 PM »
What is 2.79 miles downrange of the firing line of the new range?

Nowhere near where I'm going to be...   :D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2010, 04:00:35 PM »
Yep old Kevin highway.

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2010, 06:54:31 AM »
The bowling ball found near old Kevin Highway was discussed last night at the Gun club meeting....the official opinion is that the ball rolled out of the back of some farmers pick up truck....that is official story and we will stick with it.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2010, 08:54:41 AM »
Were there powder burns on one side?
 ;D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2010, 09:00:24 AM »
Were there powder burns on one side?
 ;D

We ain't talking....

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2010, 09:59:50 AM »
If the burns were on only one side, it couldn't have been from the Monstre Mortar.   ;D
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2010, 10:48:01 AM »
If it had soot on it it would be because it rolled out of the truck through the exhaust smoke...

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2010, 11:19:56 AM »
If it had soot on it it would be because it rolled out of the truck through the exhaust smoke...

     That's probably the most intelligent thing that you've said all year Double D.  Well I guess THAT pretty much wraps up all this needless speculation!
Glad to see all that put to rest.     ;) ;)

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2010, 11:23:34 AM »
Whoever found it should mount it on a pedestal like a trophy.   :)

How deep in the ground was it?
GG
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--Winston Churchill

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2010, 02:44:14 PM »
     Here at Seacoast Artillery we have always believed in putting all the information out on the table and then standing back and letting all the interested parties discuss it and then make up their own minds where the truth lies.  So, without further ado, here is the unaltered content of an email we just received from Dr. John Gallagher, (Parrott-Cannon).   Mike & Tracy



John Gallagher to me:

Here is what I was able to calculate.  It took some time because I had to modify the wendage calculation in the interior ballistics program due to the unusal windage for this shot.  Feel free to publish this data as you see fit.
 
The question presented:  Could the Seacoast Artillery 11 inch mortar fire a 16 pound bowing ball 2.79 miles (14731 feet) with 1.5 pounds of fg powder and a wind speed of 20 miles per hour.
 
The simple answer is yes.
 
1.5 pounds of fg powder as enough chemical energy to propel a bowling ball at 1464 feet per second at the muzzle.  This assumes that all the chemical energy is converted into muzzle velocity.  If we account for the energy lost due to gas expansion the theoretical muzzle velocity drops to 1131 feet per second.  At this velocity the ball would travel 3.27 miles.  When a projectile travels through a barrel additional potential energy is consumed through friction, leakage, air friction, projectile translation, heat exchange etc. these losses further erode the velocity to 907 fps.
 
Ballistic Calculation:
 
 Input:
 
 Muzzle Velocity – 907 fps
 Wind Speed 20 mph – an altitude velocity wind speed algorithm was use to calculate   the velocity at the projectile altitude.
 Projectile weight – 16 pounds
 Projectile Diameter – 8.25 inches
 Bore Diameter – 11 inches
 Powder Chamber – 4 x 8 inches
 Ballistic coefficient – 1.4
 Powder charge – 1.5 pounds
 
 Output:
 
 Range – 14723 feet
 Wind Deflection – 576 feet
 Range without wind – 14100 feet
 
John
 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2010, 03:09:21 PM »
I don't know how it would effect the calculations but a bowling ball is approximately 8.59" in diameter, not 8.25".  That will lower the ballistic coefficient a little.

According to the rules, "The circumference of a ball shall not be more than 27.002 inches nor less than 26.704 inches..."  That works out to 8.500"-8.595" in diameter.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2010, 03:28:20 PM »
Whoever found it should mount it on a pedestal like a trophy.   :)

Archeological evidence that the Indians had bowling balls!

The long forgotten battle of Cut Bank.



Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2010, 04:07:18 PM »
Doc John,

Some variables for you to consider if they are relevant in this theoretical bowling ball firing.  They may be irrelevant or not significantly relevant.

Direction of travel of the ball 180 degrees

Direction of travel of the  wind  45 degrees

Average wind speed during the theoretical time frame of firing 14.6 mph

Average high wind gust speed during the theoretical time frame of firing 23.033 mph

Average Temperature  during the theoretical time frame of firing  78.3

Average dewpoint  during the theoretical time frame of firing 46.3

Average humidity  during the theoretical time frame of firing 34




Offline RocklockI

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2010, 04:15:12 PM »
It sounds like a "Grassy Knoll" should be in here somewhere ...... ;D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Slow Motion and Frame Capture Cannon fire with some analysis
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2010, 05:00:12 PM »
It sounds like a "Grassy Knoll" should be in here somewhere ...... ;D

There was, that is where we shot from!