Asking a favor from the Atheists

[teamnelson]

Context first: Something I like to do is offer a "log college" experience to some of the more thoughtful high school students in my community. Its free, all they have to do is buy a book, and come prepared for a socratic exchange on the subject. It gives me great joy to help the next generation think ... not tell them what to think, just equip them to think for themselves, and articulate those thoughts in writing and in verbal exchange. It started off selfish, I have two very thoughtful teenagers in the house, and its turned into something bigger. This coming semester I will be offering an introduction to ethics or moral philosophy course, to probably a handful of students.

Here's the favor I'd ask from any of our atheists on GBO: upon what do you base your ethical framework? what criterion do you use to determine right and wrong in any situation? I have a lot of formal education in moral philosophy, a large library, and access to the internet so I'm not looking to be referred to another source. I am looking for personal responses which if you're willing I will use in discussion with my students to help them think through how they derived their own ethical framework.

To everyone else, I have a sincere purpose here - I'm not trying to bait atheists so that others can refute or bash. I'd actually like to sit back and listen if they'd care to offer, so if you could please refrain from verbal combat on this particular thread I'd appreciate it.

To the atheists that chose to respond, thank you in advance, sincerely. My goal is to encourage young people to think, and I appreciate your help.

S/F, Chaps

[williamlayton]

I  like the interchange.
I will read---will not post.
Blessings

[Conan The Librarian]

I'm no atheist but know several who are. Ethical framework is the golden rule. Most of them aren't anti-God per se, they are anti-religion and don't want to be bothered with it. Usually they have religious browbeating in their past and they rebel against that by staying away from it. A few are willing to argue fine points of philosophy, but mostly atheism is just a practical way to live that eliminates one source of friction.

I think it's interesting to note that my atheist friends who abide by the golden rule are much better people than a lot of the most devoutly religious people I have met.

You've heard the phrase "There are no atheists in foxholes."? Not true. There have been plenty, and I can assure you some have paid dearly with horrible wounds, but they kept their beliefs.

Most things you hear and read against atheists are by religious people. The atheists don't care enough about it to respond.

Personally, I think a lot of true atheists would look at your log college game as more religious brow beating and wouldn't take kindly to it.  Of course, I could be wrong.

[teamnelson]

Personally, I think a lot of true atheists would look at your log college game as more religious brow beating and wouldn't take kindly to it.  Of course, I could be wrong.

Since its not a class based on a particular religion, I confess to not understand how it would be construed as brow beating. But thank you for your perspective all the same. I look forward to hearing from atheists what they would have to say.

Thanks, Chaps

[dukkillr]

To everyone else, I have a sincere purpose here - I'm not trying to bait atheists so that others can refute or bash. I'd actually like to sit back and listen if they'd care to offer, so if you could please refrain from verbal combat on this particular thread I'd appreciate it.

I respect your goal here, and I will keep this particular thread bash-free.

[wareagleguy]

I have a question to your question.  Mine would be where do you get your "ethical framework?"  Do you get most of it from your faith?  Would you care to guess how many millions of people have been repressed, tortured, and murdered because of that faith?  Where did those people get "ethical framework?".

So, I will get to the answer to your question.  I really don't know if I am atheist.  All I know is there could be a god or nothing at all.  So, because I don't commit crimes and do bad things does that make me a believer?  No, I think I do not do those things is because I what to treat people like I like to be treated.  I think most of this comes from being raised by a wonderful family that showed me right and wrong.  I really do not believe that religion will make a person better and build an "ethical framework."  I truly believe that it all starts with a family that works at being parents.  That is the beginning of a ethical framework.

[Conan The Librarian]

My son's college prayer circle got busted by the cops because they were praying too loud. True story. It was at an off-campus house and they woke an elderly neighbor who was trying to sleep. Typical Minnesota passive-aggressive neighbor, that wouldn't just come out and ask them to be quieter. He had to call the cops. When the cop showed up he was pretty excited, obviously thinking he had some dangerous troublemakers to deal with. Fortunately that wasn't the case this time.

Fortunately also, the kids were not beaten to submission and carted off to jail, strip searched, and held without charges for six weeks with no food and only toilet water to drink, then dumped on the side of a rural road in mid-winter with no clothes or shoes.  Maybe things aren't as bad as most people think.

[teamnelson]

I truly believe that it all starts with a family that works at being parents.  That is the beginning of a ethical framework.

Thank you, this is the type of response I was looking for. Again, I'm not interested in baiting anyone; I have a specific goal here and that is to hear from self professing atheists how they derive their ethical framework.

Thanks, Chaps

[Victor3]

 TN,

 I don't have an answer to your particular question as I'm a Christian, but a topic that often comes up in discussions with young people is the value of attending religious services as it relates to morality, etc.

 For various reasons, I no longer attend traditional church services in a building established for it. I prefer to get together with like-minded individuals in homes and other small group settings.

 I was raised with no religious education and never attended church until I became a Christian when I was 21. For ~15 years thereafter I attended regularly because it was the accepted thing to do. However, I often questioned why, as I found nothing to support the model most Christians adhere to in the US as being based on a Biblical foundation.

 Practically speaking, and based on statistics regarding things such as marital infidelity and divorce rates, people who regularly attend 'church' are overall no better at restraining immoral behavior than the general population. So how is the moral framework valuable as it's taught and implemented in traditional churches?

 In my experience, being able to follow Christ's example of morality isn't helped much by 'going to church,' where a group of people gather once a week to listen to a lecture (sermon) but have little fellowship with eachother, apart from maybe a monthly potluck.

 On the other hand, one becomming part of 'The Church,' often happens in a private home when we carry eachother's burdens, pray together, listen to another's testimony, etc. Being accountable to one another and to God in such settings is more conducive to moral behavior IMO.

[beerbelly]

I don’t know if I qualify as an atheist or not, but I do not believe in a big spook in the sky. No I don’t believe in god. I was taught right from wrong by my parents, also the thought of doing long stretches in the state pen helps .

[guzzijohn]

I am not and have never been an atheist. That said I have wrestled with the church concept. I grew up in a fairly large Mennonite church (typical service was 400-600 people). As a young adult I quit attending. I felt that most of the people that were there were there as Sunday only Christians and I really did not feel any sense of community. A few years ago after my mother was disabled enough that she had not been able to attend this church for awhile she ask me to take her. We went the following Sunday. My mother has been a member of this church for decades and when we went back not ONE person greeted her. That being said when we moved back to the area I grew up in about five years ago, at the invitation of a neighbor we attended a country Mennonite church with a typical Sunday attendance of about 200 and ended up becoming members. This church has much "community" and as a whole everyone is quite supportive of each other, especially in times of need. It truly is a church "family".
GuzziJohn

[teamnelson]

I don’t know if I qualify as an atheist or not, but I do not believe in a big spook in the sky. No I don’t believe in god. I was taught right from wrong by my parents, also the thought of doing long stretches in the state pen helps .

Thank you for this input, this is very helpful!

And thank you for those that have treated my sincere request with respect. It appears that some have read into my initial post, so if it helps understanding: this class is in my home, not a church; it is not on what to think, but rather how to think and express logically and with internal consistency. This thread is not bait for debate. My hope is for genuine input from those whose ethical framework does not include a belief in God. If someone would feel more comfortable shooting me a PM that would be great too.

Thanks, Chaps

[dukkillr]

I believe that my religion is not what makes me a good or bad person.  Rather I think it is a matter of doing the best you can to make the world better.  Someone above cited the golden rule, and that's a good starting place.  Treat others with respect, hold yourself as worthy of that respect, and expect others to follow suit.  It won't always work, but that doesn't mean that, on the grand scale, you haven't made the world a better place.  Making the world a better place means making your life in it better, which should make you happy.  Happy is the ultimate chemical reward for a behavior.

I'll also agree with those above about parents.  You can't pick them, but if you are lucky your parents will not only lay the foundation for what to think, but also how to think.  So often you see people that clearly don't understand why they think something.  Almost without fail this is someone who has been taught to believe a certain way, usually since childhood, without any fundamental comprehension of the why.  Someday everyone must be capable of striking out on their own ethical path and if the framework is explanatory and logical it will be easy to carry on.  If the framework is a simplistic "do this, don't do that" it may not be able to adapt to new questions and situations and move forward.

Some of best people I've met are not religious, and some of the most wretched hate filled people I know are (or claim to be).  I don't think there is a correlation between believing yourself to be Christian and being a good person. 

[MGMorden]

My philosophy is simple.  I treat others in a manner in which I myself would like to be treated, in the hopes that society as a whole will see that the reciprocity of this will lead to a society in which we can all pursue our wishes and desires without interference.

Or more simply, do what you want so long as you aren't affecting the liberty of others.  It must be understood though that with that comes a much smaller subset of things that I consider to be wrong.  Ethics is the only thing that matters. Morals are a religious matter that I needn't concern myself with (and based on your stated education in philosophy, I assume that you know the distinction there).

For example, murder is wrong.  It is depriving another person of their life, and it's expected that to live in a civilized society where such an event is not happening to myself or to others that I care about, then no one must be allowed to do this.

Stealing is also wrong.  It is depriving another individual of their property.  Same reasoning as before.

Rape is wrong.  It is depriving someone of their liberty and free will. 

However, the "morality" issues I openly admit that I care nothing about.  Prostitution?  I don't care what consenting adults do amongst themselves.  Homosexuality?  Same thing.  Their business, not mine.   "Family values"? (usually code talk for women should stay in the kitchen) Again, I wouldn't dare tell anyone how to live their life.   If I see someone walk down the street with tattoos and/or piercings, not matter how overboard, I don't think "That's wrong".  In fact I normally don't even notice (unless it's a girl with a nice figure ).  Again, their business, not mine.

In short, some people will say "our law is based on the ten commandments and so it's Christian-based", which is simply not true (afterall, "honor they father and thy mother" certainly isn't a law).  Instead, what we have is a certain ingrained ethical code that has manifested itself across virtually all cultures and nations.  That is essentially a universal code of ethics that exists outside of religion, and is undeniable, as evidenced simply by the fact that atheists aren't out committing these crimes wholesale.

[BBF]

.......................upon what do you base your ethical framework? what criterion do you use to determine right and wrong in any situation?

To the atheists that chose to respond...............

S/F, Chaps

I do not consider myself one of them nor do I consider myself a Believer.
The simplest answer to me in regard to what I use to determine right or wrong would be
"Don't do to others that I would not wish to have done to me."

[teamnelson]

That is essentially a universal code of ethics that exists outside of religion, and is undeniable, as evidenced simply by the fact that atheists aren't out committing these crimes wholesale.

MGM, thank your for your reply, and I think this statement is an important point to bring out on the subject of ethics, and one that always comes up amongst my students over the years. A casual observer standing outside of humanity would quickly notice that there appears to be a common code of ethics that reaches across all demographic boundaries. And violation of that ethic from anyone brings quick condemnation from everyone else, regardless of their demographic. Many claim to have authored the idea, but that's in question.

For the child with no or bad parents, how is this universal code transmitted or passed on? Is it intrinsic to our humanity, or is it entirely the result of external influence? And what is the point of origin for this universal ethic which many have stated in the form of the Golden Rule? Is it a product of our social evolution, i.e. we've all simply learned this is the best way to relate to others? Could we say its hardwired into our DNA at some level? Clearly some have missed out on either the training or the DNA as they have no ethical framework apart from selfishness. How does that happen? Does that mean that this ethic is not really universal?

My students span all walks of life, and all types of families, so much of what folks here may take for granted would be an alien idea to them. It would easy and wrong to simply tell them to conform; I'd much rather allow them the opportunity to think it through for themselves, and these are the questions they ask.

[Graybeard]

I agree with much of what's been said even tho it pains me to agree with some who've posted about anything. 

I think we have folks who are basically good folks wishing to do no harm to others and bad folks who do in fact either wish harm on their fellow man or just plain don't care how their actions affect others.

I think there is a gray area there also where a person is more good than bad but isn't above sneaking in a little harm to their fellow man so long as they can get by with it.

As some have said I don't really think religion plays that heavily into which category folks fit into. I also don't think it's all that heavily based on how you were brought up (nurture) so much as what kinda person you really are (nature). My family life was sure a long way from ideal and I reckon I was shown a lot more bad than good examples growing up but I chose not to follow them and march to my own drummer.

I some times wonder if there is any such thing as an atheist in the truest sense of the normal definition of the word. Scientiest tend to believe only in what they can see and prove and for sure that doesn't include much about religion which is faith based with little tangible proof in this life time. I can understand why folks come to a conclusion there is no GOD thus technically atheist I suppose but how many of them are truly convinced there is no GOD, no heaven, no hell and nothing beyond death? I don't know but I think that of those who think of themselves as an atheist more probably just don't see any evidence of GOD thus doubt the concept as opposed to being adamant there is none.

As has been mentioned I've known some of the most regular of church goers professing to be the best of Christians who are some of the lowest life types around and some who express no particular faith in GOD or religion and certain spend no time in church that are quite fine and upstanding folks who'd go out of their way to avoid doing harm to another. I just don't think that religion or a belief in a single supreme being called GOD or whatever someone wishes to use as a designation is what makes one good or bad or sets their moral compass and determines how they interact with their fellow man.

I'm a Christian, I believe is a supreme being who created all that is and sent down his son Jesus as a means of saving us all thru belief in him. I can't prove any of that but when I look at all the miraculous things on this earth and off it I just cannot accept that it was mere random chance. That is as illogical as anything can be to my eyes.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out of we actually get folks to profess being an atheist which is looking doubtful. Many posters here going by what they say in their regular posts cause me to attach that label to them as they sure don't seem to accept that GOD or Jesus or any other supreme being created all there is exists out there somewhere and that at death we'll be called to atone for our life and whether we accepted or didn't accept Jesus as savior.

Heck life would sure be simplier if we believed when we die it's all over and there is no more. Of course if such were the case then I guess fear of being caught by the law and punished might be the only thing keeping those gray area folks from falling into the BAD category. I think the good would still be good and the bad would still be bad but a lot of folks even if they don't profess it I think deep down have some fear of what might become after death for them.

[blind ear]

Don't harm others. Don't "teach" to fear, or to believe in magic.

[teamnelson]

Don't harm others. Don't "teach" to fear, or to believe in magic.

Eddie, thank you for sharing what you believe. How did you arrive at that ethical framework for yourself?

Thanks, Chaps

[blind ear]

Because that is how I reached peace in my life.

That there is no God is a conclusion that must mostley be arrived at on your own because it is a view that isn't supported by an organized "religon" or government. 

eddiegjr

[schuetzen]

... upon what do you base your ethical framework? what criterion do you use to determine right and wrong in any situation?

I can't say that many people, even among secularists, not to mention atheists, put much thought into how they develop their ethics.  The ideas discussed in the following video are the best I have heard for a valid ethical framework.  There are several youtube videos by this author available on this subject.  The ethical framework is described as "Universally Preferable Behaviour" (UPB).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X5BwUNNCUg

Some other good videos on other subjects, by the same author, worth watching:

The Story of Your Enslavement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

The Sunset of the State
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU

[williamlayton]

I said I wouldn't but ignore the thought.
Ethics are cultural--depending on your culture you bend to the ethical ideas.
Blessings

[Conan The Librarian]

Revisiting this interesting post it occurs to me that, as a life-long Christian, my ethical framework was not formed by anything I learned in church or as a particular Christian teaching. Everything has been learned from dealing with people and learning what is acceptable and what is not.

So, the point is, does it even make sense to ask atheist to justify the origins of their ethical framework when there are Christians out there that can't point to religion as an important factor in forming their ethical frameworks?

[teamnelson]

Conan, you're absolutely right, and why it's important for everyone to step back and listen some times. This thread continues to make some powerful revelations about where all of us reach to in order to build our ethical framework.

Thanks, Chaps

[blind ear]

My ethical background did come from my culture as WilliamLayton said. eddiegjr

[BBF]

My ethical background did come from my culture..............

I suppose if I go far enough back historically, my ancestors worshiped Odin( Wotan) and that religion/mythology was pretty much straight up without much leeway.

[MGMorden]

I suppose if I go far enough back historically, my ancestors worshiped Odin( Wotan) and that religion/mythology was pretty much straight up without much leeway.

Interesting point of curiosity: many people don't know it but our days of the week or mostly holdover's from the old Norse gods which were originally worshiped by the Saxons (who conquered England and whose language eventually morphed into what we now call English). 

Sunday = The Sun's Day
Monday = The Moon's Day
Tuesday = Tyr's Day (Tyr was the Norse god of war and combat)
Wednesday = Wodin's Day (Wodin\Odin was the Norse king of the gods - sort of equivalent to the Zeus in Greek mythology)
Thursday = Thor's Day (Thor was the Norse god of thunder)
Friday = Freya's Day (Freya was the Norse goddess of love)
Saturday = Saturn's Day (ok, for whatever oddball reason that one got named after a Roman god rather than a Norse one.  Saturn was the Roman equivalent of the Greek Cronus - essentially father of the gods and heavily assocated with agriculture)

Interestingly enough as well, in French the days follow a very similar pattern of being named after deities (with a very close approximation even to the various day assignments, but using all Roman gods rather than Norse.

Sunday = Dimanche (Though I don't know the exact etymology, my understanding is that it is descended from "Day of the Lord" and hence refers to the Christian god Yahweh/Jehova)
Monday = Lundi (Luna is the moon = Moon's Day)
Tuesday = Mardi (Mars is the Roman god of war = Mar's Day)
Wednesday = Mercredi (Mercury was the Roman messenger god = Mercury's Day)
Thursday = Jeudi (Jupiter was the Roman king of the god's = Jupiter's Day)
Friday = Vendredi (Venus was the Roman goddess of love = Venus' Day)
Saturday = Samedi (this one retains the same god in both languages - Saturn)

[WillieC]

The concept of right and wrong, good and bad, is very, very deep.  Ethics, or what is ethical does vary from culture to culture, based on the predominate religious views or lack thereof.  But good and bad, right and wrong are elements of ethics but not necessarily ethics in and of themselves.  In other words, regardless of a societies' religious backgrounds, I don't think any culture in general believes that murderers, liars, cowards, and torturer's are good.  I think all societies (at least the citizens in their hearts if not their governments in action) believe we should feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and help heal the sick and ailing.  These things transcend ethics to some degree.  Helping orphans and widows seems universal not just because we wouldn't want to be in their shoes, but because they need to be helped.  This inecscapable feeling within my heart and my mind of "good" and "bad," "right" and "wrong," is that it is universal; that it is concrete like natural laws.  Where I find natural laws and "universal" beliefs, I tend to think that there must be an ultimate lawgiver, and an ultimate conscience that has left his indelible fingerprint on our hearts and minds.  My views of right and wrong were heavily influenced by an agnostic Father and a "non-religious" Mother.  They, however, are as much a part of the human race as any other atheists, theists, and agnostics.  My parents learned from their parents, some of us learned from step-parents, foster parents, and in some cases no parents.  But we all seem to have some inescapable and universal beliefs imprinted on our consciences.  The real argument, unanswerable and unproveable by a simple mind such as mine, is where is the ultimate origins of ethics....did it evolve blindly from the forces of nature and human interactions and relationships, or did it come from a superior mind and conscience and "un-caused cause" or a "prime mover."  Don't let the millions of mistakes of men and women religious and non-relgious blind you to the possibility that ethics or the deeper "right" and "wrong", "good" and "bad" has originated from God.  No one has hurt me more in life, sadly enough, than some of my very own Christian brothers and sisters, or my very own family who taught me "my ethics."  As I believe this is unfair or unjust whom can I appeal to or cry out for help if nature blindly made it so, or culture shaped it so?  I feel cheated when "right" or "wrong" is no longer an absolute; I feel then that ethics are a lie.  But on the deepest levels "right" and "wrongs" become absolutes and I feel bound by universal laws and at the mercy of a Universal Law Giver.  For this reason I don't possess enough faith to be an atheist, for those who doubt the existence of God however, we all have and do at one time or another.  I don't know if that's ethical, "good" or "bad," but I dare say it's common and normal at times!

[blind ear]

WillieC, where did you learn to fear from? eddiegjr

[teamnelson]

Eddie & Willie, thank you for posts. Could I ask you a favor though and keep it in the spirit of original post, and set religion or God to the side of the diaologue?

In other words, rather than devolving into the typical theist vs. atheist debate, let's just let the atheist answer to the question of ethics stand on its own for a bit and breathe. I realize this is an emotional topic, and I appreciate your patience, just on this thread please.

As a reminder, my goal is to identify the atheists view of the formation of an ethical framework. If you want to discuss fear as a motivation for ethics, again, could we simply hear how fear plays into the formation of an atheists ethic?

So often this very valuable conversation gets lost in debate, so I am being overprotective. I think we've already seen that there's some commonality here that is to often overlooked.

Thank you,
Chaps