Class Warfare

[SHOOTALL]

Since when is it the governments role to legislate Christian or any religious principals as it relates to tax policy? I would like someone to point that in the constitution.

I think it says they shall not do so when there can be no national church or tax to support it.

[SHOOTALL]

I in no way said that I said pay them to not be trouble . Get it stright

Huh?  could you re-phrase that so I can get it straight...or somebody translate..

You saying they bribe them to be lazy SOB slobs...and for what reason..if that's your point..?

..TM7

If you have that little comand of the English lang. I can't help. Troll else where

[Cabin4]

45-70, I have one question..Do you consider yourself a Christen?

Loaded question.

Loaded question, is it? Kind of like the title of this thread?

Yes they are both "loaded". But when you ask someone if they are a particular religion, now you’re asking loaded personal questions. My question in this topic is not personally centered. I'm not asking anyone to reveal anything about their personal status or affiliation.

[yellowtail3]

Quite true. To get clarity: when you write class warfare, what do you have in mind? The idea of a progressive income tax, generally? Or debates concerning that progressive tax, and where lines/breakpoints should be? What?

[Junior1942]

The greatest welfare recipients are the oil companies with their off-the-top tax free depletion allowance.  It was 15% last time I looked it up.  Did you notice I said "off-the-top"?  Next greatest is the mega-farmer with his price supports and his fat .gov checks to keep him from farming.  You guys swallow all that like water and choke on a kid getting a $1 food stamp.   The difference is in what you actually see.  You don't see Exxon-Mobil's billions in breaks or the .gov part of the cost of a gallon of milk.  But you plainly see the ghetto mother with her proverbial buggy full of steaks.

[Dogshooter]

The return on investment raked in by the Oil companies is nearly 1.3%. Compare that to the other businesses out there. Say what you want about how Oil companies are crooked. It only prooves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. As for profit by ANY business, I don't want the government or anyone else telling me how much money I can make.

[Junior1942]

The return on investment raked in by the Oil companies is nearly 1.3%. Compare that to the other businesses out there. Say what you want about how Oil companies are crooked. It only prooves you don't have a clue what you are talking about. As for profit by ANY business, I don't want the government or anyone else telling me how much money I can make.

Where did I say oil companies are crooked?  Where did I say I want the government to tell anyone how much money they can make?

[teamnelson]

What are your thoughts on the democrats class warfare rehtoric with the tax rate extension for all?

I think its a combination of an ad hominim with a red herring.

The red herring is that the extension of existing rates is a tax cut for the wealthy. It is to dissuade people from asking the more important questions, where is all the money going? Why do you need more? The ad hominim is the implication that if you support the existing rates, you are against the people, uncharitable, unamerican, unchristian, and really just a selfish greedy person. It implies that your view on this rhetoric is a statement of your character.

Really we would not tolerate that logic if it came out of our teenage daughters mouth, demanding a higher allowance and implying we don't love her because we simply ask where the rest of the $ went. At least, I wouldn't.

[Cabin4]

Quite true. To get clarity: when you write class warfare, what do you have in mind? The idea of a progressive income tax, generally? Or debates concerning that progressive tax, and where lines/breakpoints should be? What?

The constant referance to rich people, rich business and rich corporations by the democrates/liberals when it comes to shaping public opinion & pushing policy. Its almost impossible to find an issue that they don't use class or race warfare in.

[yellowtail3]

The constant referance to rich people, rich business and rich corporations by the democrates/liberals when it comes to shaping public opinion & pushing policy. Its almost impossible to find an issue that they don't use class or race warfare in.

That's what I was guessing. But here's a thought - perhaps the interests of the rich don't coincide with larger interests of the middle class and poor - in such cases, I wonder what terms you'd prefer to better identify interests groups (that is, apart from the Dems just shutting up, which I'm guessing you'd prefer?)

[teamnelson]

So of the 400 known American Billionaires ... leaving the millionaires alone for a moment since that would of course include the President along with many politicians on both sides of the aisle ... how many of those billionaires are Democrats, Liberal, or give to liberal causes? I just ran down the list, and I see numerous vocal liberal figures on that list. Now run down the list and see how many have started philanthropic endeavors to help the less fortunate, through education, research, grants, and of course jobs.

So it appears to me the rhetoric is to polarize the have nots, against the haves, when in fact many of the haves are already sympathetic to and actively involved in helping the have nots. It appears that its not necessary to tax the rich to make them do the right thing. Perhaps we should actually look at the interests of the rich before we leap to the conclusion that they are all greedy robber barons.

Or just follow the bright shiny object, its safer since that's what the herd is doing.

[Cabin4]

The constant referance to rich people, rich business and rich corporations by the democrates/liberals when it comes to shaping public opinion & pushing policy. Its almost impossible to find an issue that they don't use class or race warfare in.

That's what I was guessing. But here's a thought - perhaps the interests of the rich don't coincide with larger interests of the middle class and poor - in such cases, I wonder what terms you'd prefer to better identify interests groups (that is, apart from the Dems just shutting up, which I'm guessing you'd prefer?)

There are and always will be class distinction based on income levels. So I don't have any issues with recognizing this reality. I’m not even opposed to the progressive income tax approach. I’m also not opposed to a flat tax concept (Need more details though). My issue is with the ever increasing class warfare strategy of the liberals. When does it end and what will it deliver for this country other than hate.

[wareagleguy]

45-70,
All I ask is for a simple yes or no.  I will make no comment either way.  I find it curious you are not answering this question.

I will ask again...
Are you a Christian?

You have my word, I will not post any comment about this but I really want to know.

[jimster]

perhaps the interests of the rich don't coincide with larger interests of the middle class and poor -

So what?  The rich are free too ain't they? What gives anyone the right to take their money or tell them what their interests should be, in a free land?

Maybe the poor people in this country don't have my interests in mind...ever think of that one? Maybe the poor don't do things the way I want. Who am I to tell them what to do every day?

Being free is being free, you can't slice it up into groups and income levels.

[bilmac]

I'll say it again  Democrat strategy - steal from the rich,   give a pittance to the poor multitudes, the poor multitudes vote for democrats to continue the cycle.  Then they complain when the rich take their business overseas.

[yellowtail3]

Perhaps we should actually look at the interests of the rich before we leap to the conclusion that they are all greedy robber barons.

Of course, one can advocate for a progressive income tax and various tweaks, and favor repeals of some tax breaks that were scheduled to be repealed, without having come to the conclusion that they are all greedy robber barons. Arguments can be made & examined without the usual "so what you're saying is..." rhetorical devices. You know what I mean. I'll concede that it's a lot easier to tag someone a commie or a socialist or a class warrior, than to engage 'em on issues.

Or just follow the bright shiny object, its safer since that's what the herd is doing

maybe the herd is right, or maybe that's the stern light on a minesweeper that we're following. Otherwise, just a silly conversation stopper.

[DDZ]

America basically operates on the I-got-mine-Jack school of thought and behavior and attending philosophies (or should I say attending sophistries). While other western countries address problems as you describe, to tend to the culture and people as it were, America is a take care of yourself culture...every man for himself...This fits into the national identity and the shunting of capital and overhead for the 'owners' special programs..GWOT, internationalchess games, or what have you. This is the way it is set up..not going to change quickly.

~~~~~~~~~~~
..TM7
[/quote]

Really, Maybe you could explain then why America gives more to charitable organizations than any other developed county. Maybe more than all other countries combined. This after our government steals a good chunk of their wealth. The rich that have wealth over 1 million that some of you like to say are greedy, give about have of the total amount given to charities. Also its a fact that conservatives (you know the ones that don't think gov. should be raising taxes) give more to charities than liberals, with Christians being the biggest givers to worthy causes. This is real giving, people giving to other people, not government stealing it than spending it as they see fit.

When does the so called rich give enough for some of you? What do you want 70, 80, 90 percent of their wealth. So everyone is even? Some of you talk like socialists, then claim you are not. What do you call it when 50% pay all the taxes and the other 50% pay none, but reap the benefits of the payers? Many of you think its perfectly fine for able bodied men and women to collect a welfare check with food stamps on top. Is this fare? Or do some of you see fare as the more wealthy being taxed until everyone is happy?  

 It appears some of you relate giving to taxes. Funny, its usually the people that think the rich owe more, that are only good at giving other peoples money away through taxes. When it comes to liberals giving their own money they are generally tighter than two coats of paint.    

Then we have wareagleguy, that wants to know if 45-70 is a Christen because 45-70 thinks that we pay to many taxes and doesn't think the gov. should extend unemployment benefits. Like being a Christian, and hopping on the "legalized government theft" band wagon have anything in common.  

[yellowtail3]

Really, Maybe you could explain then why America gives more to charitable organizations than any other developed county.

Because America is the richest country in the world?

When does the so called rich give enough for some of you? What do you want 70, 80, 90 percent of their wealth.

At diff points, those have all been top tax rates, I think.

So everyone is even? Some of you talk like socialists, then claim you are not. What do you call it when 50% pay all the taxes and the other 50% pay none, but reap the benefits of the payers? Many of you think its perfectly fine for able bodied men and women to collect a welfare check with food stamps on top. Is this fare? Or do some of you see fare as the more wealthy being taxed until everyone is happy?

I see fare as whatever is on my plate. Fair is a diff story (and surely not the driving principle in court or gov't, despite what they tell us in school)

[Cabin4]

America basically operates on the I-got-mine-Jack school of thought

No it does not TM7. It operates on the principal that the government’s role is not to redistribute wealth. There is a difference. Letting a pile of crap bag politicians make the decisions on who gets what wealth redistributed to them is a role that our framers never had in mind. The state and federal governments are out of control and they are taking on this role and we have nothing but fiscal disaster on our hands and class warfare. Exactly what we are not suppose to have.

[nomosendero]

When does the so called rich give enough for some of you? What do you want 70, 80, 90 percent of their wealth

At diff points, those have all been top tax rates, I think.

Yes, that's what I thought & whether it has been in the past or not has nothing to do with being right or wrong. In other words, they can't give to much or I should say they can't be robbed enough. 

Looks like Libs are in good company:  http://10pillarsofcommunism.com/

[jimster]

Then we have wareagleguy, that wants to know if 45-70 is a Christen because 45-70 thinks that we pay to many taxes and doesn't think the gov. should extend unemployment benefits. Like being a Christian, and hopping on the "legalized government theft" band wagon have anything in common.

 

Ya, and here is another thing that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Make America lock religion in a box, can't use it, can't have it in schools, can't refer to it on any major issues, but then unlock the box and pull religion out to get what someone else has...."what would Jesus do"....all of the sudden religion is good again. Imagine that, using religion to get what someone else has.  That always steams me up pretty good. Wanting more and more of what other people have is a basic moral flaw in my opinion, and it's the same deal if you want a government to take away what someone else has in the hope it will fix your problems.  

DDZ...I like your post.

You are born equal in America, but that's all, after that results vary, along with attitudes, moral structure, and the drive to make something of yourself, nothing is gaurenteed in a free country, you might fail, you might not, you might keep trying after you fail, you might just apply for a state pot card and say screw it, hey maybe you can make a living at that...who knows, but choice is yours.  It's a rough world, people need to suck it up.  I know someone right now that is working 2.3 jobs, never went on employment, for that guy it's Meijer duriing the day, a Marathon station at night, and some other little part time job on the weekends. This fellow pays for a whole bunch of people sitting on their duffs and waiting for a "decent job".  If this guy's car lasts him through the winter, I'm giving him my 99 Ford Taurus in the spring when my wife gets something newer, I'm taking her older van.  This guy deserves a car for free.  He can have mine.  (hope it holds up for him a long time)

The lord helps those that help themselves...and so will I.  So there is some religion for you as long as someone brought it up.

[yellowtail3]

Looks like Libs are in good company:  http://10pillarsofcommunism.com/

I'm thinking that what you really mean to say is, 'liberals are communists!' or something close to that. A well-worn rhetorical device. Maybe they are? Maybe they all have a painting of Lenin on the wall. Maybe they all voted for Gus Hall back in the day.

Can I take it from that line, that you'd like to do away with a progressive income tax, and so have the billionaire pay the same in taxes as the Walmart employee? Or maybe move to a flat tax?

[Cabin4]

There's almost no way this country will ever comes to grip with the tax issues until it decides it will control spending.

[jimster]

Can I take it from that line, that you'd like to do away with a progressive income tax, and so have the billionaire pay the same in taxes as the Walmart employee?

How in the world could a billionare pay the same amount as an employee from Walmart??  Only a politician could come up with that.
Get a calculator and figure out what 10 percent of a billion is and get back with me would ya?  That's like saying if my taxes stay the same and not go up, it's a tax cut.  

The only beef you have with a biilionare is you want more of their money, so why don't you just give me the percentage you think you want of a billion dollars of someone elses money and get it over with. That's what it's all about. Then legislate it...and watch him take his toys and go home.  Maybe you pass legislation to make him keep his business and not leave...hey maybe you could legislate just taking his business away from him after you wipe him out with regulations and taxation...ya, that works great. Follow that on a value stream map and see where it gets you.  

[Cabin4]

Can I take it from that line, that you'd like to do away with a progressive income tax, and so have the billionaire pay the same in taxes as the Walmart employee?

 Follow that on a value stream map and see where it gets you.  

10-4  ..... I'll tell you where it gets you..look at what we have. Our tax structure is a incentive to set up shop in another country. Manufacturing Jobs are off shored. High paying executive jobs stay here to maintain control. The divide between the upper class and lower class grows not because a disproportionate amount of executive jobs are being created but because the manufacturing jobs are leaving. Sound familiar?

[45-70.gov]

arguing  with liberals,progressives, communist,  democrats, hypocrits.....and ALL OTHER forms of morons

is like hitting  a girl.......its just not a fair fight

if you have a  roof over your head
its  obvious you have a computer and electricity
and  more then 3 guns and a car.........................YOU  HAVE ALL YOU NEED...YOU ARE RICH

if you don't surrender  any excess  over the to some  homeless  or needy
that  don't have as much as you.....plenty like that in other countries
AND  you think the  ''rich''  need to give  MORE

then  you are a worthless  hypocrit

if you want to close the borders  to poor jobless people.... you CAN'T  be a christian

why  is it they come in and steal american jobs  the the  people with jobless benefits can't find

[yellowtail3]

Can I take it from that line, that you'd like to do away with a progressive income tax, and so have the billionaire pay the same in taxes as the Walmart employee?

How in the world could a billionare pay the same amount as an employee from Walmart??  Only a politician could come up with that.
Get a calculator and figure out what 10 percent of a billion is and get back with me would ya?

no need to get back to ya on the math. Let me amend have the billionaire pay the same in taxes to, have the billionaire pay the same tax rate

will that get the same snarky reply, or will a serious one?

How about it: get rid of progressive income tax? Or just haggle over what society considers appropriate % breaks? (or you could just be a snarky smartass, I know it's less work and more fun)

arguing  with liberals,progressives, communist,  democrats, hypocrits.....and ALL OTHER forms of morons...

no wonder someone was asking you if you were a Christian... such nastiness and condescension wouldn't generally come from a follower of Jesus. Or shouldn't.

RE: taxes... don't have answers, but I can recognize ideologues at work, easy...

[jimster]

I don't like progressive anything...so yes...get rid of progressive income tax is fine with me.  If we all pay the same 10 or 15 or 20 percent, he automatically pays more than me.
Matter of fact he pays more in a year than I would pay in a lifetime.  Could be he employs a whole gob of people and maybe spending his money employs a bunch more people, ain't that good enough?  He can spend it as well as your government can...and it works out a heap better in the end too. 

Snarky

[teamnelson]

RE: taxes... don't have answers, but I can recognize ideologues at work, easy...

Since you offer no answers of your own, how about these?

Do you want the billionaire to pay the percentage rate as the wal-mart employee, so the total amount would be perhaps 1000 times what the walmart employee pays? So the billionaire contributes the same as 1000 walmart employees? Would that be fair? Of course the billionaire doesn't use 1000 times the public services as a walmart employee, so I don't see how that's particularly fair.

Do you want the billionaire to pay a higher tax rate than the wal-mart employee, because he can afford it? He won't miss it with all those zeros. A flat tax would at least be more equal, but this would generate more revenue.

Do you want to the billionaire to pay a lower rate than the wal-mart employee, which still calculates to most likely many times what the wal-mart guy paid into the kitty? But still that billionaire is only consuming services at the same rate as the wal-mart employee.

Do you want that billionaire making as much of his money working in the economy to where maybe he employs 1000 people, all paying taxes, along with him, which results in more money in the kitty, but fewer demands on services.

Which of these ideologies do you prefer?

[yellowtail3]

Oh, I'm done with ideology. I don't want to pay anything.