Class Warfare

[billy_56081]

How about fair is fair, if everone was required to pay 1000 dollars annually in taxes would this be fair? I think it would. Now I am sure those of you who are envious of the sucessful will say this would not be fair, but that is why you are failures in life.

[45-70.gov]

How about fair is fair, if everone was required to pay 1000 dollars annually in taxes would this be fair? I think it would. Now I am sure those of you who are envious of the sucessful will say this would not be fair, but that is why you are failures in life.

and  i thought i was  blunt

they have more than  most people in the world
but  won't share  it....but   wnat  others  to pay   to  help EVERYONE ELSE

[billy_56081]

45-70,
All I ask is for a simple yes or no.  I will make no comment either way.  I find it curious you are not answering this question.

I will ask again...
Are you a Christian?

You have my word, I will not post any comment about this but I really want to know.

No you asked if he was "Christen".

[nomosendero]

Can I take it from that line, that you'd like to do away with a progressive income tax, and so have the billionaire pay the same in taxes as the Walmart employee?

 Follow that on a value stream map and see where it gets you.  

10-4  ..... I'll tell you where it gets you..look at what we have. Our tax structure is a incentive to set up shop in another country. Manufacturing Jobs are off shored. High paying executive jobs stay here to maintain control. The divide between the upper class and lower class grows not because a disproportionate amount of executive jobs are being created but because the manufacturing jobs are leaving. Sound familiar?

Yep!!

[beerbelly]

The flat tax is the way to go. Everyone pays ,say 10% of their income, no exceptions. Now that is fair!
                                                       Beerbelly                                 

[Cabin4]

The governments methods of determining income tax rates is flawed. The governments methods of determing corp/business tax rates is also flawed. All aspects of taxation are far from perfect. But compared to the governments method of determining how much money is spent is a crime. Any business or corporation that spent money like our government does the government would be demanding that management resign. They may even be looked into by the Justice department to see if any SEC or Tax rules had been broken.

In aggregate, we do not have a tax revenue level problem. Its all about the crime and corruption on the spending side.

[teamnelson]

In 2009, the us collected 2.1 Trillion in tax revenues. 130,000,000 people filed federal returns. Nearly half received a full refund or even made $ in the process. Folks with an AGI jointly of $250,000 or higher (the rich) make up only 3.1% of income, earn 27% of national income, and pay 47% of the tax base. Is that progressive enough? 3% pay 1/2 the revenues while 1/2 contribue nothing? (Just federal mind you.) BTW, that is the bracket of successful small business owners and entrepreneurs to whom the market analysts look like canaries in a coal mine.

BTW, is 2.1 trillion really not enough to cover necessary services? That's 1/7th or 14.3% of GDP to fund the Federal Government. The CBO predicts it'll be 40% of GDP by 2075 assuming no additional programs are passed by Congress.

[Junior1942]

In 2009, the us collected 2.1 Trillion in tax revenues. 130,000,000 people filed federal returns. Nearly half received a full refund or even made $ in the process. Folks with an AGI jointly of $250,000 or higher (the rich) make up only 3.1% of income, earn 27% of national income, and pay 47% of the tax base. Is that progressive enough? 3% pay 1/2 the revenues while 1/2 contribue nothing? (Just federal mind you.) BTW, that is the bracket of successful small business owners and entrepreneurs to whom the market analysts look like canaries in a coal mine.

Is 2.1 trillion really not enough to cover necessary services?

Using your logic the way to end tax inequities is to cut taxes for the rich and raise taxes for the poor.

[teamnelson]

Using your logic the way to end tax inequities is to cut taxes for the rich and raise taxes for the poor.

If you've reached that conclusion on the basis of that data, that's your own logic, not mine. You may have missed that I did not post what I think about that data.

I merely offered data that clearly indicates progressive taxation is in full effect, and then asked if that's enough. Do you think 3.1% of the tax payers paying 47% of the tax burden is progressive enough? Yes or no. Its not a hard question.

[Pat/Rick]

Don't know that its "Class Warfare" as much, as it is "Teamwork". Our (we the people) team, against their (gov't) team.  Problem is, their team provides the "refs"   

[Dixie Dude]

Class warfare is one of the tools communists use to bring down a nation.  Everyone should pay taxes IF they keep demanding things from the Feds.  Flat tax, no deductions.  Like Reagan said, Government is not the solution, Government is the Problem.  Bunch of lawyer politicians who never ran a business, or actually worked at a real job while growing up.  Or the libs talking about the Big Bad Corporations who actually provide about half the jobs in America, who need to be taxed more, so they will close down here and move overseas. 

[Cabin4]

When a lower income bracket demands that a higher income bracket pay more in tax as a percentage of their income then they are, the lower bracket has declared warfare. When the lower income bracket demands that their taxes not be raised and that additional tax burden be placed at a higher level, they have declared warfare. Thanks to the liberals & democrates including the president. The president who is suppose to represent all the people (all income levels) has declared war on an entire class of the very people he is suppose to represent.

[blind ear]

The notion that banks privatize profits and socialize losses dates at least to the 19th century, as in this 1834 quote of Andrew Jackson:

I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States. I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the Bank. ... You are a den of vipers and thieves.
—Andrew Jackson in 1834 on closing the Second Bank of the United States.[2]


eddiegjr

[Dixie Dude]

I'm with Ron Paul on auditing the Federal Reserve.  How much do they have? 

[magooch]

Just one little caution as y'all start redesigning the federal tax system.  While a flat 10% may sound pretty fair for instance, you've got to take into account where you're starting from.  To the vast majority of taxpayers and non-payers a flat 10% would represent an enormous tax increase.  I don't think it would be very popular.

[jimster]

I think general data issued by the IRS is deliberately misleading stemming from the use of 'averages' and how they divide up their demographics.

You almost have to figure the IRS's data is all wrong, it's the only way your data could survive, which comes from?

Look, over the past several years, the IRS, all the major news everywhere, and recently our press at home has been reporting that a huge number of people don't pay taxes, and the top wealthy people pay a huge/most of the sum. Now if I factor in my sister inlaw who refuses to work full time, and goes to work twice week, pays in a few hundred bucks, gets back 3,500 somehow....I'd have to say all the data they are using is a lot closer than your data. Who is paying my sister in law off to NOT work?  The poor??  No...it's the wealthy, they distribute their money to her so she can do what she wants. Times this senario times hundreds of thousands....that's how much this goes on.   

If the wealthy were not paying their share, my sister in law would decide to work...no doubt about it, and the fact is
people want, and my sister in law wants...that money....sounds like some on here want that money too.

At some point the wealthy will say...and some have...find your own damn money...and there ain't a thing you can do about that...and that's happening now as well.  Might as well admit the socialist ways don't work, they never did, they never will, and look at the real problems.  It's not the wealthy don't pay enough. 

[jimster]

 

Since the working poor don't pay any taxes right now as claimed, nor do they create jobs, and usually have long stints of unemployment...they should be the ownly ones paying taxes... Since the wealthy and elite make all the jobs and have the whereforall to run the show...they should have their taxes zeroed and receive $5million tax credit checks immediately to prime the system to run right....working poor should count their blessing and think about Tiny Tim. People earning less than 50k should be the only folks eligible for military service at the behest of the rulers....All wars costs should be unregulated and spread thru multiple generations.     And there should be voluntary taxes in $1000 increments directly earmarked for GWOT...for those who want it.

Why would you twist this all around into something strange and wierd? 

How about the wealthy don't pay people to NOT work....if you don't pay taxes, you don't get a bunch back....
If you choose not to work...maybe you go without some things...

You get that right?  I mean why twist it all up? 

You must be a politician to not get that.

[SHOOTALL]

I in no way said that I said pay them to not be trouble . Get it stright

Huh?  could you re-phrase that so I can get it straight...or somebody translate..

You saying they bribe them to be lazy SOB slobs...and for what reason..if that's your point..?

..TM7

If you have that little comand of the English lang. I can't help. Troll else where

I in no way said that I said pay them to not be trouble . Get it stright

Well...you did right here in post #24....:

"Welfare is a bribe , pay the lazy to not be a problem"




that's what you wrote....not trolling just trying to figure what you're thinking or on to, or what a 'problem' is....Apparently, not much.  So if you've got your shorts in a bunch today..that's OKay...consider it dropped.

Have a great Christmas....


..TM7
.

Nope you said  they didn't vote I never said anything about the ones on wealfare voting .

[SHOOTALL]

Just one little caution as y'all start redesigning the federal tax system.  While a flat 10% may sound pretty fair for instance, you've got to take into account where you're starting from.  To the vast majority of taxpayers and non-payers a flat 10% would represent an enormous tax increase.  I don't think it would be very popular.

It would to me , beats upper 30-lower 40% . The key would be stop wasting !

[Pat/Rick]

Even if we had a flat tax there would always be those who say, the rich should pay more, why do I have to pay the same as the rich?  All the while forgetting that someone making 20-50 thousand a year is likely not to be their employer. I would rather have a rich business owner decide that the profit could be used to expand and provide more jobs or better benefits.

Like Cabin4 said, maybe the problem isn't the amount of money coming in, but the ways in that it is going out. +1

[Dixie Dude]

The billionaires probably can move their profits offshore.  The millionaires probably can't as much and thus can provide the additional jobs, like doctors, lawyers, and small business owners.  Small business owners, like construction people can have million dollar businesses.  If they are taxed more, they can't hire backhoe or crane operators, welders, electricians, plumbers, etc.  Or they can't buy new equipment to replace old worn out equipment.  Most of this heavy equipment is also American made.  Doctors have to buy x-ray machines, hire nurses and office aids.  If any new or larger tax it might should go to the billionaires, not the millionaires.  There are a lot of millionaires now, and they have their money tied-up in assets, like equipment and land, and they do provide MOST of the new jobs. 

[SHOOTALL]

We over look the fact that a millionair that invest and is succesful pays more at a lower rate 
Or to pay no tax on 0 income at 50% brings in less than paying 10% on 500000.00 income

[Cabin4]

The billionaires probably can move their profits offshore. 

Yes, Billionaires (mostly all businesses) may move their assets off shore because the business climate, business outlook, business opportunity, fiscal policy or tax rate is better. Hmmm..... Because our government has created such a horrible tax system and fiscal policy we have a wrecked business climate, opportunity and outlook. What are you going to do with your money? Answer: Go someplace else and who takes it in the back side? Answer: Workers & jobs. What should be done to fix this? I seem to think that raises tax is not the solution unless you are a liberal with socialist ideological desires to create a government controlled economy. 10% unemployment is not a problem for a Socialist. They will just keep extending your unemployment benefits forever. That sounds familiar! They will just bail out the large failing corporations run by big unions: That sounds familiar too! They will just keep spending my printing cash and creating stimulus to the government controlled economy: That’s also sounds familiar! For those that lost their job due to their horrible polices and now have no medical insurance, they will create a medical safety net for you: That also sounds familiar! If you can’t pay your mortgage, they will get your loan restructured and force the lender to eat your inability to pay: Sounds familiar.

[Cabin4]

TM7, You can call it class warfare if you want. But I don't seem to recall conservative politicians starting the political debate by blaming the lower classes for not paying thier fair share. The liberal politicians are always waging the class warfare battle, always. That is a differance.

[Dixie Dude]

I have two contractors working for me.  Both have trackhoes, boring machines, backhoes, trenching machines, welding trucks, trucks, dump trucks.  They are not technically millionaires by cash, but by assets.  They provide several jobs to workers from 10-30 depending on work load.  Like 10 permanent, and a lot of temps like Hispanics and poor.  Their starting pay for the labor is $10 to $20 depending on skills. Installing gas mains, the Hispanics must have a green card and must pass drug tests to be hired.  A lot of cash crosses their hands when installing gas mains, but it goes out to pay and operations expense.  They usually pay bonuses at Christmas and/or buy a piece of new equipment if they make a profit.  If not, they keep what they have and keep operating.  When work is short, these guys travel great distances to find construction work and their bid prices are low, so as a utility we do a lot more maintenance like main replacements during slow times.  As a utility company we clear about $27 million in profit each year, but we plow that back into maintenance and new equipment to stay in business as well as some bonuses.  However this year, we have had to turn off a lot of people for non-pay of their bills, and the total owed us earlier in the fall was $25 million.  We can hardly maintain a business like that.  Some of the turn offs have been places like restaurants, even a hospital.  1/3 of our gas is going to Alabama Power to make electricity because of environmental concerns over coal, especially in Birmingham with air polution in the valley.  This helps make up for what we have lost in industry, especially textiles.    

[Cabin4]

And if (God forbid) you passed away, your family would likly have to sell the business to pay the death tax. Essentially, the government is seizing 50% your assets when you die. To support redistribution of wealth and votes and for no other purpose.

The criminals are running the government.

[SHOOTALL]

In a country where anyone has the chance to strike it rich it would seem that those who work hard and do should be rewarded not lose half of it to pay for those who don't .
As far as a rich person arranging their finaces in a way to reduce taxes , it was decided in court that this is both fair and legal many years ago. Common sense tells us anything else would be foolish.

[jimster]

Let's put it this way, maybe a way we all can agree. Even if you really think the wealthy are not paying their fair share, even if we all did, and we just passed legislation to take a whole bunch more from them (pick any number that you think)...

What in the world would make you think this government or ANY government would get any of it to you, or the people that need it, or to the debt...or any place it would do any good, or the country any good?  We all know that ain't happening, ever.
They would squader it all into nothing but corruption, then, you say we need more, and ya we do, so we tap out the wealthy altogether cause there IS nothing else. Now what you going to? Print more?   

The best thing to do is just let America be what it was designed to be, it's not an easy place to live without busting your butt, sometimes that don't work either, believe me I know, but America is all about busting butt and having good times and bad times. If we turn this place into a something where people expect to be taken care of, if shoots the idea of what made America special. I'm just a regular guy, never made much money when I was young, made a little more after I got older, all I have is a wife, a house, some kids that moved out, a couple of older cars so we can get back and forth to work, some guy stuff, and I feel like the richest guy in the world. Worked my tail off just to get that much. I'm lucky compared to a lot of people who may have worked even harder and not had as much, I know that, and I want to help some of them if I can. But there are some I don't want to help to. They need to be forced to strive for something a little harder, best way is to not give them so much. I think.

[351 power]

dixie dude, i like your example of the contractors. good for the economy. take those same businesses and run them with foreign workers buy cheaper foreign made equipment. run the business thru offshore accounts and register it all in the bahamas. invest the profits in swiss banks. become billionaires instead of millionaires. the american dream fulfilled. is it still good for the economy?

[DDZ]

And if (God forbid) you passed away, your family would likly have to sell the business to pay the death tax. Essentially, the government is seizing 50% your assets when you die. To support redistribution of wealth and votes and for no other purpose.

The criminals are running the government.

Talk about legalized theft. What better discouragement to the middle and working classes than to ensure that the fruits of their hard work  can’t be passed on to the next generation. The politicians that support the death tax should be thrown in jail.