Child dies after parents refuse to seek medical help.

[powderman]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-10-08-toddler-death_N.htm




The child died of pneumonia after the parents insisted on praying instead of medical help. Sad. Prayer is essential, but God uses drs to do his work too.  POWDERMAN. 

[Junior1942]

Beware of radical Christians. 

[williamlayton]

According to Christ, a Christian is radical---that sounds argumentative but it is not.

folks follow a calling and try to be obedient to God.
Blessings

[dukkillr]

These things are always tough calls.  A believe very strongly in religious freedom but these poor children are not being afforded a life long enough to be free of their parents religion.  Always a horrible story, and a call I'm glad I don't have to make.  I can't imagine a way to make a brightline rule...

[powderman]

I never could understand why it's so hard for folks to understand that God also uses Drs to do his work. Where do these people think meds come from??? Medicines, or herbs are used in the Bible to heal. POWDERMAN. 

[Conan The Librarian]

It's a big country, bro. I'm always intrigued by these cases where parental instincts are overridden.

Here's a link to the Jonestown massacre tapes. If this is the recording I think it is, you will find it quite a chilling example of what people will do to themselves (and their children):
http://www.archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16

[wreckhog]

The child was cursed with stupid parents.

[Dixie Dude]

I was once taught this way.  Faith healing.  It does work.  However, Jesus also said "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".  Truth - bacteria and virus cause a lot of disease, truth, anti-biotics kill the bacteria.  So, since it is a truth, you can use medicine.  A doctor can set a broken bone also.  These same people will use an insecticide to kill pests, but not an anti-biotic to kill a bacteria.  That being said, a lot of disease is caused by man's sin.  Sexually transmitted diseases were brough in to the human race by man.  Sheep carry syphilis, but they don't get it.  However if you have sex with sheep, you can get it.  Same with AIDS from the green monkey.  Most flu is mutated by bad animal care in China between hogs and chickens in which the flu virus mutates and gets into humans.  Cleanliness is also a factor.  Washing your hands, keeping your wastes away from your living area and your food.  Outhouses and indoor plumbing in America got rid of a lot of disease that was rampant in Europe. 

[BBF]

These things are always tough calls. 
Not at all for me

I can't imagine a way to make a brightline rule...

When religion affects the welfare and lives of children, parental Rghts are set aside the same as any other situation causing harm. IMO

I do hope that the parents are facing criminal charges in the case above.

[bpjon]

Dixie Dude, syphilis was present in the Carribean Islands long before sheep.

[torpedoman]

The child was cursed with stupid parents.

And now you understand how evolution really works.

[Cabin4]

Survival of the fittest, the process of natural selection at work.

[williamlayton]

Let God be the judge on this one and let us stay out of it.
Blessings

[slim rem 7]

william,im always amazed ,at how most of the time, you seem to post what im thinking or will think after reading your post..god bless you brother..

[powderman]

YES, God is always the judge, but nothing wrong with discussing ignorance. I'll be the first to tell you that God does indeed heal through prayer and the laying on of hands. My wife suffered greatly with a bad back for years, drs could not seem to help. We went to church with an older man who was illiterate, could neither read or write. He said that God healed through him by laying on of his hands. We'd seen miraculous healings by his laying on of his hands many times in church. One day my wifes back was so bad she had been bedridden several days and we couldn't get her to the doc. Brother Hack was visiting not far from here so I asked him to stop by. When he came in he told me to put Patty face down on the floor on a blanket. Tears streamed from her eyes from the pain as I got her on the floor. He knelt alongside her and layed his hands on the small of her back and said a short prayer. He then got up and told her to lay still til he told her to get up. After a few minutes he said, Sister Patty I want you to get up now. She not only got up  but went shopping with her best friend. She hasn't been down in her back since, that was at least 15 years ago. He move and we have lost track of him. I too have been healed like that.
NOW, if God didn't use Drs Jadyn would have been dead many times over these past 4 years. Faith is a wonderful thing and prayer a real blessing. But common sense must also be used. These parents were  wrong. POWDERMAN. 

[buffermop]

Powderman you tell it like it is!!

[torpedoman]

Let God be the judge on this one and let us stay out of it.
Blessings

Good thought william but don't you think the parents should have a tattoo on their forehead stating " No medical care allowed"

[williamlayton]

Pretty confusing issues here. We shout Republic and free choice and then demand that all abide by our side of the coin.
I dunno----I do know that Paul went to Rome knowing he would die and he was obeying God. Today--would you call him stupid?
I know not the heart of this matter---may be that GOD did ordain this---may be that they really did not know the lethality of their decision---I know we do some stupid things trying to legislate out death.
I don't want to grace over this---but---Grace is amazing.
Judging from the morality of these believers--and I believe they were sincere--is the child better off now or if he/she had lived in this world?
I am going to add this little addendum---Perhaps God allowed for this little thread and discussion--for some ONE? Would you then change your mind. It is OBVIOUS that we need to search the scriptures and seek advice from God on this one.
Blessings

[powderman]

WILLIAM. There is faith, and there is stupid. To refuse treatment that God has made available was stupid. If God didn't intend for the child to live it would have died even with drs help. If God wants you dead, the best drs in the world cannot save you, you WILL die,  simple as that. Theres a lady at church with a liver disease, she has refused treatment and I've watched her go down hill all this past year. God has provided a cure and she is refusing his help. I told her she reminded me of the man in the flood turning down his rescuers 3x saying God will rescue me. He died and asked God, why didn't you save me??? He said, I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect??? POWDERMAN.  

[Buckhammer74]

Wow William,

I am really beginning to think that you are one of those people who play with snakes, speak in tongues, and go to see Benny Hin.

[pmeisel]

Everybody lives in their own reality.

Imagine if a tradesman in a nearby town gave up his trade to become an itinerant preacher, and claimed to be the son of God?  Would you listen to him?

[slim rem 7]

 well close to the end of mark i believe ,but somewhere it does say, you will know my followers as the serpents bite will not harm them..
 as for myself ,that would be tempting god..i won t be picking up a rattle snake in the near future..
 the bible is the good book..read it most every night.. but i live by the guidance of the father,that i pray for in prayer daily..just get me through one day at a time lord..

[williamlayton]

BUCKHAMMER
You are very close to pegging me---except for the Hinn thing & SNAKES.
I do not put God in a box and expect him to obey our/my logic.
I know this child died---and God watched---from before creation and from the end at the same time.
Put that in logic and see how it smokes.

PM
I cannot answer for God, I certainly cannot fathom Him.
How do you KNOW your argument to be true?
Surely--not many years ago and, in some places in the U S today,--this would have gone unnoticed--critized, maybe,--procecuted--doubtful.
Whatever the case--God stands in judgement of this and He does not ask for a vote or opinion---it is done and it is what it is----hindsight is poor argument for the case at hand.
Blessings

[BBF]

Pretty confusing issues here. We shout Republic and free choice and then demand that all abide by our side of the coin. That free choice stops right in front of another persons life
I dunno----I do know that Paul went to Rome knowing he would die and he was obeying God. Today--would you call him stupid?He was an adult and it was HIS decision, BTW, his life wasn't all that asured if he stayed in Israel at that time either


Judging from the morality of these believers--and I believe they were sincere--is the child better off now or if he/she had lived in this world? That is not their call IMO, everything is/was required to make that child healthy...........................

[Buckhammer74]

Question William

What would be said here if these parents were Muslim, or Wiccan, or Buddist?

[williamlayton]

BH
But they are not.

Scatterbrain
Are you speaking for God---if so you have need to say sayeth the Lord amd abide by his judgement on you.
You are judgeing by your standard---and telling God what the standard should be.

Now, we have arrived at the point for you to make a decision---is God soverign?

It is a mushy issue until you take yourownself out of the equasion and recognize God is soverign----in all things.
Blessings

[williamlayton]

NOW---lets take this discussion to the level that it should be discussed.
The Word of Faith Movement:
Clearly and defineably a group which would attempt to make God subserviant to man. Some go as far as to say that one becomes the body of Christ and in that position is a god.
Clearly a group that takes scripture out of context and does harm to the Word.
Hagin went to his death denying he had a heart problem.

Now, is there a law/should there be a law/if there is a law, is it infringing on a man that says he MUST seek medical help for him and his family.
To be brutally honest with myownself, I vomit at that thought. I will/have/and will do so again but it is not because it is the law.
Blessings

[powderman]

WILLIAM. I don't know what you are asking me ? God made help available to those people, they refused it. Who do you think is responsible for our having such great drs and medicines? God?? or satan??? Do you believe there is ANY dr anywhere in the world that can give you life if God wants you dead??? I don't, not possible. As parents we owe it to our children to try everything God offers us to help them, the responsibility lies with us as parents. POWDERMAN. 

[Buckhammer74]

Now, is there a law/should there be a law/if there is a law, is it infringing on a man that says he MUST seek medical help for him and his family.
To be brutally honest with myownself, I vomit at that thought. I will/have/and will do so again but it is not because it is the law.


These parents should face murder charges. Their "Faith" in a ficticious being and neglect to seek medical attention caused the death of their child.

Also William, What if they were Muslim? Can you not answer a simple question?

 

[powderman]

BUCK. God is not a ficticious being as you and others here will find out some day and saying OOOOOOOPPPPPSSSSS aint gonna help ya. POWDERMAN.