45/70 Handi-power question

[Terbltim]

Hey Gang,
Recently a guy asked me how much power (meaning hand-loaded ammo) could the Handi-45/70 safely withstand?
He asked me because he thinks I'm "the 45/70 guy" at the local gun club but my experience comes only from the Marlin rifle. I've never shot a 45/70 Handi.
I know the over-all-length can change things a lot and the Handi can use longer ammo than the lever-action.
Can you guys give me some idea of what power you think is the upper end for the 45/70 Handi-rifle?
I don't need actual load data. If you say the bullet weight & type and the velocity I can figure it out from there.
Any 1st-hand knowledge type of answer is likely to be helpful.
Thanks in advance.
Tim

[gendoc]

300gr rem sjhp......1980fps

[kevinsmith5]

410 gr cast with a gascheck 1750 fps. It will go higher, but that is the accurate load.
550 gr flat nose, hard cast, 1625 fps. Tremendous recoil, but goes through dang near anything.

[cwlongshot]

I would say it will handle heavier loads then the vast majority of shooters would be willing to shoot from it. LOL   It's a strong action. IMHO, easily capable of so called "lever gun" loads.

I have fired my Marlin heavy 400grain load at a choreographed 1900+ fps with no pressure signs what so ever. My handi is a realitively light gun and my shoulder doesn t' like its recoil with those stompin loads, so I load a 300HP at about 1700fps mine. I have never "needed" more.

CW

[Ranger J]

Here, here, I am with you CW!   While the Handi will handle 'Marlin' loads your shoulder may not.  If these loads are shot I suggest a good recoil pad and the bolt load filled with lead.  I too am a fan of 300 gr loads and will continue to be until rampaging rhinoceroses invade my part of the world.    I am at that age when I don't consider the amount of recoil I can stand with my manhood. (Others may disagree)  

RJ

[Shu]

It can handle more than most would want to shoot through it.

Recoil tolerance does not equal manhood. Intelligence as in knowing when it is enough for you is a better indicator. I am at the age where it takes much longer to heal up. I down load my 45-70 becuase I  enjoy shooting a lot. I can always raise the power on it for a hunt.

[cult .44]

My working assumption is that any load the Marlin 1895 can handle, the .45-70 Handi can handle as well (and then some,  maybe, but I'm not going to push the envelope). I have a load that pushes a 350 gr JRN to a little over 1900 fps with 50.5 gr of RL 7 (I call it Neptune) and it's at the top of the Marlin level. I've fired more than 100 of these loads through my Handi with no signs of any problems so I felt comfortable enough to let my brothers and friends shoot them during recent outing. Of course, they all oohed and awwed about how powerful it was and how hard it kicked.

But now I've got some H4198 and the Hodgdon manual indicates I could push the same bullet to 2190 fps and still stay under the 40,000 CUP recommended for Marlins. Ouch! Unfortunately for my shoulder, I'm prone to let curiosity get the better of me.

[knight0334]

My Handi and BC handle everything I've been able to throw at them.   I keep loads in the upper level 2 range, but have tried several level 3 loads with no ill effect, to the gun - my shoulder is another story.

My 45-70 and 45-120 Buffalo Classics are varmint rifles, so I crank them up for additional range.   250-300gr slugs at 2500-2800fps.   I dont shoot any heavier bullets, being no need to since we're fresh out of mammoths, mastodons, and dinosaurs here in central Pennsylvania.   And deer die just fine with Winchester's Super-X 300gr JHP's.

[kevinsmith5]

I have loaded the flat nosed 550 gr Crater-II to 1950 fps before. There were no ill effects on teh rifle or the brass.....I on the other hand have no desire to ever fire that load again, even if Godzilla shows up in the backyard.

[nebrguy]

Why do people think they need a thermo-nuclear load from a 45-70 to be effective ? My handloads of a 405 gr JFP's @ 1350 fps and 300 gr.  JHP's @ 1600 fps stop corn fed Nebraska deer quickly. I'd have no qualms about using the 405 gr load on elk, moose,  or bison.

[kevinsmith5]

I live very close to wherethe largest black bears on earth are regularly killed, so I guess I could claim that is why. But that wouldn't be true. I was really just pushing the envelope to see how fast and flat I could push that big hunk a lead.....

[tykempster]

300 @2400-2500 fps
405 @2000-2100 fps

[jason045]

The handi will do ruger no.1 level loads.  I have loaded the 300gr barnes TTSX to over 2550fps but it is brutal and not recommended unless you need the 4500ft-lbs of energy.  I backed them up to 2350-2400 to make them more tolerable, but still that is not for the weak of heart. 

[walkingwolf]

 The handy will take more load than the thin wall case.

[petemi]

I'm just a little dude and I'm pushing my 405s to about 1950 fps.  I'm still here, as is the Handi rifle...we're both unbroken.

Pete

[RickC.]

I'll echo what everybody else is saying.  I have settled on the Rem 405 @ 1450 fps for whitetails.  WHOPS deer with very little meat damage and the recoil is just a shove.

 Not long after getting my handi I loaded up 20 rounds of lower-end Mauser level loads from the Speer book (I'd have to find my notes to see what they were).  Three shots off the bench later, I came home and pulled the bullets on the remaining 17 rounds.  No thanks! (And it's not needed).  The .45-70 handi is loads of fun to shoot and load for.  Those hot loads were very not fun!


                       Rick

[nomosendero]

The handi will do ruger no.1 level loads.  I have loaded the 300gr barnes TTSX to over 2550fps but it is brutal and not recommended unless you need the 4500ft-lbs of energy.  I backed them up to 2350-2400 to make them more tolerable, but still that is not for the weak of heart. 

"Will Do" & advisable are 2 different animals. To say the Handi "will do" Ruger 31 loads could make someone who doesn't know better believe the Handi ids as strong as a Number 1 & you can just use RugerNumber 1 data. This is
crazy. The Handi is not as strong as a Ruger Number 1, PERIOD!!

[nomosendero]

My working assumption is that any load the Marlin 1895 can handle, the .45-70 Handi can handle as well (and then some,  maybe, but I'm not going to push the envelope).

Good advise.

[cult .44]

Why do people think they need a thermo-nuclear load from a 45-70 to be effective ?

Probably most folks don't. I like to ramp them up out of curiosity, and the challenge of handling a heavy recoiling round and shooting it well. Not for everyone, to be sure. As for whitetail, yeah, no need. I didn't hunt with my Handi this year but I kept it handy just in case something happened to my other rifle. For the job, I had loaded several Speer 400 grainers pushed to about 1400 fps.

[petemi]

I can just about spit at 1400 fps. What's wrong with a bullet wandering down the lane at 2 grand???

Now that I think about it, I really should run some spit through the chrony.

Pete

[jason045]

The handi will do ruger no.1 level loads.  I have loaded the 300gr barnes TTSX to over 2550fps but it is brutal and not recommended unless you need the 4500ft-lbs of energy.  I backed them up to 2350-2400 to make them more tolerable, but still that is not for the weak of heart. 

"Will Do" & advisable are 2 different animals. To say the Handi "will do" Ruger 31 loads could make someone who doesn't know better believe the Handi ids as strong as a Number 1 & you can just use RugerNumber 1 data. This is
crazy. The Handi is not as strong as a Ruger Number 1, PERIOD!!

You can just use Ruger no 1 data.  Not saying a hadi is as strong as a ruger, but the pressure limit on ruger level loads is due to limitation of the brass and not the gun.  This coming from the handi guru himself, quickdtoo.  The handi is good to 60,000 psi with a case head the size of the .500 S&W.  The 45-70 head is a bit smaller and ruger loads are limited to 55,000 psi.  Much less breech thrust on maxed out 45-70 ruger loads than there is on factory .500 ammo.  At least that is how it was explained to me by Tim.  As far as the gun is concerned they are safe.  Now whether or not it is prudent, that is a whole 'nother animal.  Without added weight and a premium recoil pad, these loads will hurt you and possibly lacerate tour forehead without a long eye relief scope. 

[quickdtoo]

The 500S&W is factory chambered by H&R, max 500S&W loads run ~52kpsi as shown in current Hodgdon data, SAAMI's max average pressure is 60kpsi, and the 500S&W case head is over .025" larger than the 45-70. Using Lilja's bolt thrust formula, a 50kpsi load in the 500S&W (inside case head diameter of .501") breech thrust calculates to over 9800lbs. The 45-70 has an inside case head diameter of ~.420", that calculates to 6900lbs of breech thrust at the same 50kpsi.

No one is saying the H&R is as strong as a Ruger, but considering the physical characteristics of the two rounds at equal pressure, if the 500S&W is safe in an H&R, then so are Ruger level loads. Longevity is another matter, 500S&W underlugs have a reputation of setting back, shooting a lot of 50kpsi level loads in either chambering will likely result in a loose barrel sooner or later.

One also has to take into consideration "who's" ruger(modern rifle) level data is being used, Speer is 35kcup, Lyman 40kcup, Hodgdon and Hornady set it at 50kcup!  Lyman Ruger loads are the same as Hodgdon and Hornady max levergun pressures at 40kcup! 

Tim

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=221

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=38

[briannmilewis]

I've heard that the Handi 45-70 is so powerful, all you have to do is wave it at the deer and they faint at the sight of one. Then you walk up to them and strangle them with your bare hands. Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Saves on ammo and range time too. Can't wait to own one.

[jason045]

Thanks for clearing everything up, Tim.  I was working of the Barnes data which tops out at 55k psi.

[mechanic]

Playing with numbers ain't my thang!  I do know however I would take this round to hunt anything that walks on this side of God's earth and not feel undergunned!  Just learn where the bullet goes and put it there...

Ben

[nomosendero]

Quote from: jason045 on Today at 04:02:42
Thanks for clearing everything up, Tim.  I was working of the Barnes data which tops out at 55k psi.

Which is my point, there's lots of Number 1 data out there, some may take in consideration of the case limititations to the fullest extent & some may not.
Case cap. is also a factor in pressures & in the case of the 45-70, they vary alot & I see this wasn't even considered. Let's do that!!  http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,80939.0.html      Still want to say "just use 45/70 data without weighing all the factors? What about Number 1 loads for a Win. case in another case. Which action would better handle a case failure if this was overlooked?

Quote
Longevity is another matter, 500S&W underlugs have a reputation of setting back, shooting a lot of 50kpsi level loads in either chambering will likely result in a loose barrel sooner or later.

Yes, it's no accident that they don't chamber it now.

I think the real guru's are more likely to be found in the manuals. They are the ones who in most cases put the Handi advised loads with the Marlin loads & NOT with the Number 1 loads. I think I will run with that.

[cult .44]

I've heard that the Handi 45-70 is so powerful, all you have to do is wave it at the deer and they faint at the sight of one

That's right, and have you heard of the .45-70's amazing penetration. A buddy of mine (actually his buddy's buddy's buddy) once dropped and 18-point buck in its tracks after shooting through 30 yards of brush and two oak trees. Oh, and that was after the bullet ricocheted off a boulder (which it cracked in half, of course).

[quickdtoo]

Yes, it's no accident that they don't chamber it now.

The 500S&W is still a current offering, why do you think they no longer chamber it?

Tim

[nomosendero]

Yes, it's no accident that they don't chamber it now.

The 500S&W is still a current offering, why do you think they no longer chamber it?

Tim

Thanks Tim, I should not have relied on what I was told from anoth, havn't looked at the new cat. lately.

[quickdtoo]

Maybe Brian56 will comment on the 500S&W.

Tim