wheel weights ok for 30-30 hunting bullets?

[mattri]

20" Barreled 30-30 bolt action. 

For use on deer out to 100-150 yards will bullets cast from wheel weights perform well? 

Will I need to add tin/etc, if so, how much? 

[stimpylu32]

There are a few more things that will come into play here .

What weight bullet ?

What style bullet ?

Gas checked or non-GCed ?

What speed you are wanting to push this bullet ?

stimpy

[mattri]

Thanks for the reply- should have been more clear. 

Looking at 150-160grn round nose bullets, something simmilar to this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=613249

Not looking to push the envelope as far as speed goes, 2200 should be fine, a little less is prob more realistic. 

Not sure as far as gas checks go, open to suggestions.

Really just looking for an accurate, effective bullet out to 100-150 yards. 

Thanks, Matt.   

[Tom W.]

I have that mold and it does an excellent job in my 30/30 and 30-06 with w/w with a little babbitt blended in.

..Except mine is an old single cavity......

[pourboy]

Wheelweights are fine for a hunting bullet in a 30-30. You might add a couple of percent of tin to make the alloy flow a little better, and air cool the bullets, don't water drop them.

[mattri]

Thanks for the replies.  What does air cooling do vs water cooling?  Allows them to cool slower I'm assuming,how does that affect the bullet?  Thanks, Matt. 

[res45]

For a hunting bullet I like a FN design as it make a better wound channel and imparts more shock on the surrounding tissue than the RN.  I have both the Lee 150 and 170 gr. FN gas check molds and use the Lee .311 push through sizer when I want to apply gas checks to the bullet.  I use air cooled WW alloy with about 1% Tin added when I have some around.

I use two coats of Lee Alox/JPW mix on these bullets gas check or not with no issues,I haven't shot very many GC bullets through my old savage pump 30-30 as I have not had time to work up a full power load with the GC applied.  I've basically been shooting the bullets with no GC behind 8 grs. of Red Dot as a small game and plinking load which gives me and Avg. MV of around 1200 fps. over the chrono and around 1" ten shot groups at 50 yds.

What does air cooling do vs water cooling?  Allows them to cool slower I'm assuming,how does that affect the bullet?  Thanks, Matt.  

Lead alloys can have a variety of other metals combined together to make up an alloy with a certain BHN or alloy hardness.  The hardness of the lead alloy is determined by the % of Lead,Tin,Antimony in the mix as well as traces of other metals.  Tin will harden lead but only a small percentage,it's better used to aid in mold fill out.  Antimony however can have a large affect on the hardness of the lead alloy,WW alloy that is air cooled generally runs around 10 to 12 BHN if you water drop the same bullet out of the mold into cold water it will double the BHN or hardness of the bullet it will go from say 10 to 12 to 18 to the high 20's depending on the amount of antimony present in the alloy.

A good read for the beginning caster.
http://www.lasc.us/IndexBrennan.htm

[GH1]

 I would be a little concerned using that particular profile in a levergun, assuming that's what you have. I don't know if that round nose is narrow enough to cause magazine detonation or not, but I personally would feel much more at ease with some sort of flat point bullet.
GH1

[mattri]

res45, thanks for the great reply.  I've been reading through the info in the link, very helpful. 

One thing I'm not clear on- if water cooling the bullets adds to their hardness, but not too much, isn't that a good thing? 

Sorry for the rookie questions.

[jhalcott]

 I use similar bullets in a 14" T/C contender and other styles also. I shoot air cooled wheel weight alloy to about 2200 fps in some guns so it WILL work. I get around 1900 to 1950 fps with the 311041 (170 gr) bullet and Hornady gas checks. This will penetrate thru a deer at 100+ yards.

[Lloyd Smale]

air cooled ww will work to those velocitys but your best served by a gas checked design. You will get some expansion with air cooled ww at that velocity. What i do is load some up at that level for hunting. A couple wont cause any undue leading in a good gun but if you are going out to shoot say 50 rounds out of a gun in a sitting youd be best off to back it down to about 1500-1700 fps. Every gun is differnt though. Some will lead severly when pushing a cast bullet that fast and its a fine balancing act at those speeds between alloy size powder type and even primer to get decent accuracy. Again slowing it down makes it much easier to shoot cast accurately

[mattri]

Thanks for the replies, still not clear on why it would be better to air cool than water cool. 

Wouldn't the added hardness of water cooling be benneficial?

[stimpylu32]

Thanks for the replies, still not clear on why it would be better to air cool than water cool. 

Wouldn't the added hardness of water cooling be benneficial?

Sometimes the problem with water quenching is that it makes the bullets too hard / too fast , thus making them brittle . Were as air cooling lets them age like fine wine . 

stimpy

[mattri]

Gotcha- thanks for clearing that up. 

Now for a really stupid question:
Is there any way to control how much/ how fast your bullets cool, and have a measurable affect on hardness?

For example, if you were to cast bullets and then drop them into a very warm place to eventually cool off vs dropping them into a vry cold place, would that have an actual affect on the bullet? 

[jhalcott]

Gotcha- thanks for clearing that up. 

Now for a really stupid question:
Is there any way to control how much/ how fast your bullets cool, and have a measurable affect on hardness?

For example, if you were to cast bullets and then drop them into a very warm place to eventually cool off vs dropping them into a vry cold place, would that have an actual affect on the bullet?   
 
  Why are you trying to make things MORE complicated?? Just cast them up and drop them on a soft towel. As they cool move them into one corner so the soft fresh ones don't bash into them and get damaged. When they are cool enough , size and gas check them! Then load them into charged, primed cases and go hunting. If you WANT to experiment , wait till January 5th and cast out side on the porch. In certain areas of the country this will give you an idea of what will happen dropping the bullets into a COLD place. You MIGHT realize it takes LONGER to cast the same amount of bullets in Jan. than it does in August. Merry Christmas!!

[Tommyt]

Not looking to push the envelope as far as speed goes, 2200 should be fine, a little less is prob more realistic. 

Not sure as far as gas checks go, open to suggestions.

Really just looking for an accurate, effective bullet out to 100-150 yards. 

Thanks, Matt.   

Matt
 I had my Speer #12 book on the desk so I opened it up
on Jacketed Bullets in 150grs. and 170grs. all the Mzl.Vel. run
Low end 1570 and just a couple at 2238
So I would think 2200 with Cast 160 is a Bit fast.
There are many loads in the 15 and 16 hundred area. I also think
a lot of folks feel fast is better and go right by the sweet speed
in their Guns. I feel it much better going from the bottom up
rather than Hovering around the top end from the get go.
Hope not to open a fire here but just my thoughts.

Tommyt

[kbstenberg]

  FWIW  Lloyd Smale & Res 45 are spot on on all there points. I'm a newbie myself. But if I could add to there statements. A lot also rides on the bullet style an how hard they will be pushed. This summer I did a lot of testing with a Ranchdog bullet style. The 311- 165gr bullet. I used AC-50/50 , WC-50/50 , AC 75/25 , AC WW.  For me the 75/25 expanded the way I wanted. An the deer I got this year was my first with a cast bullet.
  Kevin

[mattri]

Great replies, thanks. 

I bought this gun as a winter project, so all the loading, casting etc will be on a very slow, regulated process. 

I am not looking for fast speeds,m it's a 30-30 aftdr all.  Would really like to see how accurate an old rifle can shoot.  Already, with factory ammo it is well within MOD (minute of deer).

I'm particularly interested in seeing how different casing methods affect the bullets, fast/slow cooling etc.  It won't be quick but should be intersting. 

[Gohon]

mattri, as stated by others you've gotten some good advise here.  Air cooled wheel weights work just fine for the velocities you will be shooting in the 30-30.  I have the mould you referenced and it works fine in all my 30-30's having taken several deer with it at about 2,000 fps plus or minus a tad.  However I prefer the Lee C309-170-F   http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=574963   as it just seems to kill better and after all, that is the end result you're looking for.   I do add about 2% tin to help with mould fill out and I don't size my casts which drops from the mould at .3105-.3110.  I'm a firm believer in my casts being .002-.003 over groove diameter for a good bore seal and a gas check design just adds to that security.  For this reason I use the .311 Lee push through sizer to install the gas checks.  I use nothing but LLA for lube and it works fine.  Some hate the stuff and some love it.  If you do choose the design you referenced, don't worry about magazine detonation.  It ain't gonna happen with that design.

One last note on water dropping.  You have very little if any control of consistency of your BHN.  BHN from bullet to bullet can run as much as 4 points off.  The few times I have wanted something harder I've use the oven heat treating method.  Here is a good read should you want something harder than air cooled and this method really works.   http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[Richard P]

As extra information----one of the things that make hunting with cast bullets difficult is that few of us get to shoot enough deer to see the difference in performance. At woods distances I can assure you that a Lyman 311041 in air cooled WW at mv 1750 or so will completely exit a deer shot through the low chest cavity. When we cannot recover a bullet our comparison is gone.  Lots of deer have been taken with about every type of alloy. You arent going to get many shots while hunting.  More bullets go downrange in load testing.  Few of us take time to try to learn about bullet expansion in test media.  (Not enough of us anyway).  We worry about hardness and accuracy (which are certainly important). rp

[mattri]

Excellent points. 

Accuracy is absolutely my primary objective.  A 30-30 is more than capable of dropping a deer inside of 200 yards with almost anything that you can shoot out of it.   Hitting it in the right spot will trump a perfectly mushroomed bullet in the wrong spot every time.