Wolf wars

[Cottonwood]

Maybe you should try succession from the nation

Just remember something JimFromTN you don't have a dog in the wolf wars here in Montana... We Do!

[JimFromTN]

Well, you all just keep doing what you are doing with absolutely no success and when the elk populations are so low they have to close the season indefinately, you all can say "I told you so" and the rest of the nation will have learned its lesson.

By the way, when you vote for a federal official, you are voting for someone to have the authority to pass legislation on the rest of the nation.  I am a citizen of the United States and Montana is a state in the Union so yes I do have a dog in the wolf wars because Montana is just as much mine is it is yours just like TN is just as much yours as it is mine.  If you don't like it, succession is always an option.

[dpe.ahoy]

So it would be alright to come dump a bunch of Rattlesnakes in yer back yard, or maybe a nice mess of Mountain lions to help thin down your pet population and keep ya on red alert while while doin yer jog.  No need to ask you about it, cause I got as much say so as you do about it.  Don't know about your state, but in Montana, the animals belong to Montana, ya poach one ya gotta pay for it, and not to the people in Washington.  You want to see them nice big "doggies", bring the Canadian wolf on down to TN so you have em start takin over.  DP

[pab1]

Well, you all just keep doing what you are doing with absolutely no success and when the elk populations are so low they have to close the season indefinately, you all can say "I told you so" and the rest of the nation will have learned its lesson.

JimFromTN, you failed to address my previous post about the controlled hunt held last year. It was never given a chance to work. The antis don't care about game animals. They are only using wolves to control hunters.
Wolf population estimates have always been far below actual wolf populations. Antis have no problem misrepresenting facts in front of biased judges to get their agendas rammed down our throats. I know you tried to get me to understand that I live in a state whos officials live 2000 miles away, but when they ignore facts to push through personal agends, they are not representing the people. I don't know how people feel about that in TN, but that does not sit well with the majority of the people here.
  

I am a citizen of the United States and Montana is a state in the Union so yes I do have a dog in the wolf wars because Montana is just as much mine is it is yours just like TN is just as much yours as it is mine.  If you don't like it, succession is always an option.

This seems to be a growing mindset in this country. When it comes right down to it we are all just citizens of the world really. I guess we really have no more right to our land, homes, income and personal property here than someone living in China, Iran, Mexico, Venezuela, etc. I guess we are just so backward out here in MT that enlightenment is still a ways off. Sometimes I wonder if there is any hope for us at all. It really does ""take a village" ...doesn't it?      

[pab1]

What is going on here?!  TN and 48 other states won't allow me to register to vote simply because I'm not a resident of their state! Isn't it my right to have my voice heard on their issues that don't effect me and I never have to live with the consequences of? I guess when the citizens vote there and get it wrong I can always say "I told you so!". Oh well, this should change soon. There are some in DC who feel that citizens of other countries should have the right to vote in our national elections since our leaders effect them to one extent or another. Thats good...isn't it? 

[Cottonwood]

JimFromTN ~ You are very incorrect with your thinking, Justice Scalia ruled that the Federal Government does not have the right to tell states what to do back when the Brady Law was passed.  He not only stated once but three times.  In 1997, in Printz vs. the United States, the Supreme Court decided in favor of the sheriffs in a landmark state rights ruling that affirmed states are “not subject to federal direction” and “Congress cannot compel the states to enact or enforce a federal regulatory program.”  Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia wrote the majority opinion in the ruling, clarifying how both the state governments and the federal government are independent sovereign spheres, each “protected from incursion by the other.”

“The federal government,” Scalia proclaimed, “may neither issue directives requiring the states to address particular problems, nor command the states’ officers, or those of their political subdivisions, to administer or enforce a federal regulatory program. It matters not whether policymaking is involved, and no case-by-case weighing of the burdens is necessary; such commands are fundamentally incompatible with our constitutional system of dual sovereignty.”

Prince Vs United States

You as a citizen of Tenn do not have a vested interest in what happens in Montana, you can not vote here on any matters for the FACT of it.  The do gooders think that they have a vested interest in Montana as a park to come to and see critters.  

NOW I suggest you lower your tone in my room.

[bilmac]

Hey Tenn.. You keep saying Wyo does not have a valid plan, why don't you try to learn a few facts rather than spouting liberal propeganda. Wyo did have a plan that was agreed to by all the professionals. But the tree huggers were the ones acting like babies. They just couldn't understand that wild animal populations grow and in a man altered world we live in today there have to be controls. And so they found themselves a good tree hugger judge who has no idea about how the real world works who screwed up all the work that had been done in getting the plans in place to delist the wolves and place some control on populations.

I live in Wyo and am proud of the fact that our professional biologists stood up to the Feds and convinced our Democrat Govenor that they were right. The people who reintroduced the wolves made promises about how big the population was going to be. They let the wolves get way beyond the promised limits before they made any effort to develop plans to control the numbers.

[Pot-Bellied Stallion]

JimFromTN, you mentioned that the Red Wolf was reintroduced into Tennessee not too long ago.  What if the feds had 'reintroduced' the Canada Gray Wolf or Timber Wolf into Tennessee instead of the Red Wolf?  Then you would have an idea of what we are facing in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and even Washington and Oregon.  You can't 'reintroduce' a species of animal into an area where that species never existed in the first place.
The governor of Idaho recently instructed all Fish and Game Officers not to pursue any reports of wolf poaching in the state.  An Idaho game warden told a friend of mine to always gut shoot them so they would run several miles before they died.  That way they would be out of the area where the shooter was and the recovery of the bullet would be almost impossible.
I have lived and hunted here for 27 years and have seen a dramatic decrease in the elk, deer, and black bear populations since the wolf was 'reintroduced'.
You stated that someday you would like to hunt in Montana.  Under the current situation, there won't be enough game animals left for you to come and hunt.

[JimFromTN]

NOW I suggest you lower your tone in my room.

My only tone is pointing out that you all are failing because you have to hold your ground regardless of the cost to yourselves and everyone else.

I'm sorry but National Forest, National Parks, and BLM land is as much mine as it is yours regardless of what state it is in.  Anything that is federally owned belongs to everyone.  My taxes go to subsidize the ranchers who graze it, the mineral companies that mine it, the loggers who log it, as well as everyone else who uses it.  Don't tell me I have to subsidize hunting and industry in these states and then tell me its not my business.  The only difference between the people saying I have no right in any of this and the liberals, is who gets a free ride off of my tax dollars.

[JimFromTN]

Pab1, I said I was all for the managed wolf hunts.  I think its great.  I hated to see it closed.  That was my point of this thread.  Everyone just assumes because I don't automatically take Wyoming's side, I must be an animal rights activist.  I love hunting and I dream of hunting out west some day.  I think you all are very fortunate.  I think wolf hunting should be open in all of the states.  The problem is that total erradication of the species outside the national park is not a valid management program and will not be accepted by anyone.  The judge has made it perfectly clear that if Wyoming would adopt the same program as Montana, they would open it back up again but rather than asking Wyoming why they don't just do it, you take their side and blame the animal rights people.  By doing so, you have shot yourself in the foot and we are all going to lose as a result of it.  Thanks guys.  I probably never could have afforded to hunt elk out west anyhow.  I guess in the future if any of us want to elk hunt, we will have to hunt a high fence somewhere.

[JW307]

http://gf.state.wy.us/services/education/wolves/index.asp

Jim,

Please, for the sake of everyone here, follow the link above to the Wyoming Game and Fish web site so you can educate yourself on the Wyoming's wolf management plan and proposed hunting seasons before you post any more inaccurate information.  The draft regulation says absolutely nothing about "total eradication of the species outside of the national park".  If you look at the map Yellowstone National Park and Grand Teton National Park are in the area bounded in red, but make up only a portion of that area, which is the area where wolves would be protected.  To further educate yourself about Wyoming it would be a good idea to look at a physical map of the state.  It will show that the area in red also coincides with a continuous mountain chain known as the Rocky Mountains.  The majority of the state, outside of that area, is made up of high plains where a large portion of this nation's beef and sheep are raised.  The area where the cattle and sheep are raised is in the portion of Wyoming where wolves would be considered predators, like coyotes.  If you read the regulation the wolves killed as predators in this portion of the state also have to be reported with information including the animal's sex and the lat./long. of the kill site.  Even if the regulation was intended to allow for total eradication it likely would never be achieved.  We've been shooting coyotes as predators for generations and can't seem to get rid of them either.

[JimFromTN]

You are right.  They can only kill everything outside of the National Parks and the trophy management wolf zones.  That makes all the difference in the world.  You can't compare the coyote population to the wolf population.  Treating the wolf as a preditor in non-trophy wolf areas can have a negative affect on the wolf populations which is the intent.  If I were a Montana or Idaho resident, I would have major issues with this.  Wyoming could easily kill enough wolves to relist the wolf and close the season for all the other states before they can deal wih their own wolf numbers leaving them with a wolf problem.  Great for Wyoming, sucks for everyone else.  I don't understand how anyone outside of Wyoming would want anything to do with this particular plan.  Why doesn't everyone do this and then there can be a race to see who can kill the most wolves before the season gets closed.  Those who didn't kill enough wolves to manage their own populations are just plain out of luck.

What should happen is that each state is given a certain number of tags based on the wolf population in that state.  As for livestock issues, ranchers can let permit holders hunt their land.  Of course, you know they will want a trespass fee even though the hunter is doing them a great favor.

[JW307]

I guess I need to go back and expand on my geography lesson, since you obviously didn't pay attention last time.  Wolves live where there are elk.  Elk live in mountainous areas.  For the wolves to get from the mountains in the management area to mountains in other parts of the state they have to cross large expanses of desert and plains, where there are no elk.  As a result of this the vast majority of the wolves in Wyoming live inside of the red boundary.  To my knowledge there are no established packs of wolves east of Cody.  The point I'm trying to make here is that there is no way Wyoming hunters could kill a large enough number of wolves as predators to have a huge impact on the population.  The only time there are wolves in parts of the state other than the management area is when the population grows to a point that they begin to look for places to expand.  Every year there are a few scattered sightings of "wolf-like creatures" in the mountains around the state, but most of those sightings are never confirmed.  The whole point of the predatory status is to keep the wolves inside of the management area and not create a situation where they become a problem for ranchers.

[bilmac]

I think Tenn just doesn't want to understand. And to think he is a hunter, what chance do we have convincing the tree huggers from liberalville. But if he wants to hunt in the rocky mountains he'd better get it done fast and hunt in ranges far away from the Yellowstone ecosystem. It is gone, and our other ranges soon will be.

Every hunter I know that used to hunt in the mountains connected to Yellowstone has either quit hunting or has started hunting other ranges. When I lived at Pinedale there were mooses everywhere. Last year I had a COW permit and when I went over to hunt I couldn't even find sign. I talked to several landowners and they said there hadn't been any mooses since the wolves came.

This whole wolf business has been just a whole string of lies and broken promises made by the Feds and their tree hugger masters.

[thxmrgarand]

Addressing the comment; "My taxes go to subsidize the ranchers who graze it, the mineral companies that mine it, the loggers who log it, as well as everyone else who uses it."

There is no subsidy that would stand up to financial accounting principles (FASB instead of GSAB, I suppose).  The timber and the grazing were there before the federal government declared it owns the land, and if the bureaucrats that consume the "subsidy" were gainfully employed producing something then taxpayers would not have to pay for them.

State residents who are surrounded by federal land have a superior right to use that land, and 99 times out of 100 they know much more about how to manage that land than do the federal bureaucrats who cycle in and out of the posh federal offices on their way to a superior retirement package.

[JimFromTN]

So in other words, Wyoming is holding up the other states from having a wolf management program and keeping the wolf listed over a non-issue and fantom sightings of possible wolves because someday they may be an issue for ranchers?  I got an idea, why don't you wait until its an actual issue?  That way, the wolf would have been delisted for a while and their numbers will be established and you won't be getting them relisted and causing issues for all the other states involved.  In the mean time, perhaps Wyoming could hold back some of their wolf tags for the ranchers they are so worried about.  Of course, it could be a waste of wolf tags because the wolves don't exist in these areas which Wyoming is holding up the delisting over.

As for federal lands, lets see how much the ranchers, miners, and loggers would like it if it were managed like private land by the private sector.  I don't know what the land owner cut is out west for logging but here in TN, the land owner gets half.  Lets see how the loggers like that.  If land owners get a tresspass fee from hunters then the federal government should get the same.  Lets run it like a real business in the private sector and see how everyone likes it.  Newt Gingrich was for the outright sale of all public lands and he still is.  Lets see what happens to hunting out west if that were to happen.  It would be just like TX where there is no public land to hunt and you either pay some exorbitant amount to hunt deer for a weekend to get your one deer a year or you have to pay to get on a lease with whole bunch of other people where its hard to see any wildlife at all because its so over hunted.  Sounds like great fun.

[JW307]

If you read more carefully I said most sightings of wolves outside of the management area are unconfirmed.  Those that are substantiated are because the wolves stayed in a location until they caused problems and/or were killed.  There was an incident two summers ago on the southern end of the Bighorn Mountains, which are located approximately 80 miles east of Yellowstone across the Bighorn Basin, where a breeding pair of wolves made a den and had about four pups.  The two wolves managed to kill over 60 head of sheep on summer range in a two month span.  All of this was documented and confirmed by game biologists and wolf experts.  The rancher was issued a shoot on sight permit by the government and the problem was quickly sorted out, but we as taxpayers reimbursed him for those lost sheep.  The moral of this story is that there is absolute proof that wolves cause problems with livestock.  We don't need to sit back and see if it becomes a problem, common sense and facts say it will.  Why allow it to happen at all?

[Cottonwood]

JimFromTN your uneducation about wolves is sure showing, your taunts are not welcome.  Be nice Last Warning

[JimFromTN]

I appologize for taunting anyone.  I am uneducated in wolf matters but it seems like nothing is getting accomplished as a result of stubborness.  It seems that the people who want to manage the wolf population have hit a wall and rather than taking the path around the wall, they have decided to keep ramming the wall hoping it might fall down.  From an outsider's perspective, the wall has not even started to crack and the anti's are adding more bricks to it every chance they get.  I hate to say it but it looks like you all are doomed because that wall isn't coming down and you all don't like the path that goes around it. 

[Double D]

I appologize for taunting anyone.  I am uneducated in wolf matters but it seems like nothing is getting accomplished as a result of stubborness.  It seems that the people who want to manage the wolf population have hit a wall and rather than taking the path around the wall, they have decided to keep ramming the wall hoping it might fall down.  From an outsider's perspective, the wall has not even started to crack and the anti's are adding more bricks to it every chance they get.  I hate to say it but it looks like you all are doomed because that wall isn't coming down and you all don't like the path that goes around it.  

Jim,

Let me ask you this.  If the animal that was introduced into Yellowstone was the  African lion and they spread outside the park, would you still  have the same opinion?

[JimFromTN]

If the lion was introduced and you were told to come up with a valid management plan and you refused, yes, I think you would still be doomed.

The issue is no longer whether or not the wolf should have been re-introduced and opinions on that issue mean nothing at this point.  You might have a chance if people are willing to accept this fact and move on to the real issue, otherwise, you're doomed.

[Double D]

Sorry, but the logic is faulty.  If we took this attitude in relation to guns we would have lost them years ago.

Each and every time we compromise on this issue we lose. Some where sooner or later we have to stand our ground.
 

[thxmrgarand]

Here's a link to a new 2-page publication from the Alaska Department of Fish and Game on how to live and camp around wolves:  https://secure.wildlife.alaska.gov/management/wolves/wolf_safety_brochure.pdf

This talks about not leaving children unattended, wolves eating dogs that are hitched outside your house, keeping livestock in well lighted areas, etc.  Last year a school teacher who was jogging near the town airport was killed and eaten by wolves.  Later in the year another town was harassed by wolves, and residents and the state killed a large number of wolves in and near that town.  Alaska likely has less agriculture by any measure than does any other state so those types of conflicts are more limited than would be the case in another state.  However, any state where wolves are being introduced might look at including responses to human-wolf interaction in any management plan.

[bilmac]

In Biblical end times prophecy it talks about wild beasts roaming around killing people. I used to think that this was just symbolism for something similar. Now once again I discover that you should always take the Bible as literally as possible. Reduce the human population dramatically by a few of the other plagues predicted, and the wolves in the US could indeed be wandering around hunting mankind not to mention the grizzlies.

[JimFromTN]

Yep, there are people down here in the south that still complain about losing the civil war.  If they keep holding their ground, maybe they will be aloud to break off from the nation some day. 

In the mean time, I guess I'll start looking into high fenced elk hunts.

[pab1]

In the mean time, I guess I'll start looking into high fenced elk hunts.

If you can call that a "hunt". Elk are not meant to be fenced. One of the best things you can do for elk (IMO) is to join and support the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.

[bilmac]

Pab,  Do you know if the Elk Foundation has taken a position on the wolf business. It would sure be helpful if some sane organizations started making waves too instead of just the freaks.

[pab1]

Bilmac, here is a letter printed in the Missoulian signed by the President of the RMEF and members of five other organizations calling for delisting and state management. Everything I have seen from them calls for state management.

http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/columnists/article_dd18d5d8-e38c-11df-a7da-001cc4c002e0.html

[bilmac]

Every outdoorsman I know is not the type to be interested a lot in politics and petitions and rallies and that Kind of crap, but the folks on the other side don't seem to have anything better to do with their time. They love to throw their weight around in issues that they completely ignorant about. I hope that some of the good guys will get involved, but we just aren't naturally inclined to do stuff like this.

[JimFromTN]

Bilmac, here is a letter printed in the Missoulian signed by the President of the RMEF and members of five other organizations calling for delisting and state management. Everything I have seen from them calls for state management.

http://missoulian.com/news/opinion/columnists/article_dd18d5d8-e38c-11df-a7da-001cc4c002e0.html

The 2nd to last paragraph says it all.