Author Topic: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?  (Read 628 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bilmac

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3560
  • Gender: Male
Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« on: December 13, 2010, 05:55:13 AM »
I am reading an old book   Rabble in Arms. I thought I knew the old sailing ships but their are terms the book uses that has me baffled. The most puzzling is a ship rigged sloop of war. How can a boat rigged as a ship be called a sloop? Then they talk about gundelos and bateaux. I think I am getting a mental picture but I may be wrong. The book thus far has mostly been about the battles fought for control of Lake Champlain, but I am only half finished.   

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 06:20:49 AM »
a ship rigged sloop of war.

It's been a loooooooog time since I read that book.   :-\  More'n 50 years I guess...  And I can't exactly remember the passage you're talking about, but I do remember reading a novel that referred to such a ship.  Even at that time I thought sloop rigging was odd for a ship or war.  But the subject watercraft wasn't a ship of the line but a privateer commisioned by the Continental Congress... as I remember!   :D

But in any event, the phrase you're quoting doesn't sound right to me.  I could understand it if it said a "sloop rigged ship of war."  And I 'spose there's no law saying a boat can't be called a "sloop of war" if said boat is sloop rigged.  Or a cutter of war or ketch of war... But I've never heard of "ship rigged!"   ???  Since "sloop" defines the type of rigging, it's like saying "Ship rigged sloop rigged of war."   ???

It'll be real interesting to hear what real sailors have to say!  I sold my last sail boat years ago... it was a sloop of pleasure!   ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline Pat/Rick

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1935
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 12:30:02 PM »
I haven't read much on revolutionary naval warfare but, the inland waterways would noy yield enough draft or maneuver room for full sized ships of war as we think of them.Schooners, ships of the Line, etc., hence smaller sloops and batteux's etc. Also any vessel that had a compliment of his kings officers and seamen, continentals as well, would be classed as a " ship of war", regardless of rig. haven't read that book as yet.I tend to shop the used book stores mostly. The continentals also rigged whale/long boats out with small canon and or swivel guns for the inter waterways battles. IIRC a few years back National geographic did a story on one that was found submerged. I don't remember the lake it was found in. Also remember that the Americas cup boats are sloop rigged and they are LARGE boats.

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 03:53:10 PM »
Well, my ignorance has been lessened!   ;D  I did a google on ship rigged sloop of war and came up with a bunch of stuff.  This is just one line from Wikipedia:

"The first three-masted (i.e. "ship rigged") sloops appeared during the 1740s, and from the mid-1750s most new sloops were built with a three-masted (ship) rig."

Interesting stuff, and I learned something new!  My day is a success!   :D

Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline elhoward622

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 100
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2010, 04:19:58 PM »
Some of the war's most interesting characters fought on the great lakes: Horatio Gates, Benedict Arnold, Jon Paul Jones.  I guess gundelos and bateux are smaller shipsm local to the great lakes area, used in fighting from what I read.  The Revolution is one of my absolute favorite parts of Am. History.

Offline bilmac

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3560
  • Gender: Male
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2010, 06:14:40 PM »
The book said it was three masted. I just can't see out how the word sloop figures. If it was square rigged it was a ship, for and aft makes it a schooner.

What kind of boat did you have AT?  My handle comes from Bill and Macgreggor. I had a Mac 26 for awhile till I figgured out I was spending less time on the water with it because of the amount of time and effort it took to step the mast.

Offline elhoward622

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 100
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 01:30:36 AM »
I don't usually go to Wiki, but here's what they say.  I know nothing about sailboats  but I do love he Rev. so I will read just about anything about it.
Historic naval definition:
A three-masted Bermuda sloop of the Royal Navy, ca. 1831. Also called Ballyhou schooners, the RN referred to these as sloops-of-war.
The naval term "sloop" referred to ships with different rigs and sizes varying from navy to navy. "Sloop-of-war" was more of a reference to the purpose of the craft rather than the specific size or sailplan. (Further confusion was caused by the practice of redesignating a vessel simply according to the rank of the commanding officer.) The Royal Navy began buying Bermuda sloops, beginning with an order for three sloops-of-war (HMS Dasher, HMS Driver, and HMS Hunter, were each of 200 tons, armed with twelve 24 pounders) placed with Bermudian builders in 1795. They were intended to counter the menace of French privateers, which the Navy's ships-of-the-line were ill-designed to counter. Eventually, Bermuda sloops became the standard advice vessels of the navy, used for communications, reconnoitering, anti-slaving, anti-smuggling, and other roles to which they were well suited. The most notable examples of these were HMS Pickle, which raced back to England with news of the British victory and the death of Admiral Lord Nelson at the end of the Battle of Trafalgar, and HMS Whiting (79 tons and four guns), which lowered anchor in the harbor of Hampton Roads on 8 July 1812, carrying dispatches. The American privateer Dash, which happened to be leaving port, seized the vessel. The crew of the Whiting had not yet received news of the American declaration of war, and her capture was the first naval action of the American War of 1812. Generally a sloop was smaller than a frigate; however, in the later days of the U.S. Navy's sailing fleet, some of the largest vessels were called sloops because they carried fewer guns than a frigate, as few as 20. The classification of sloop was similar to a corvette

Offline Conan The Librarian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4494
  • McDonalds. Blecch!
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 04:54:20 AM »
If it helps, sloop refers to the configuration of the sails, and doesn't really imply the overall design of the hull or the purpose of the ship. What would be interesting in this case is to learn what the definition of sloop was back in revolutionary times versus what it is today. Today the definition specifies a single mast, but that may not have been the case 200+ years ago. Also, words like sloop have varying meanings even today in different maritime societies.

I'll be very interested to learn what, in addition to AtLaw's good find, you are able to uncover about this.


Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 05:41:27 AM »
I'm not going to look it up again, but from what I read the term sloop when referring to a warship had nothing to do with the rigging.  Supposedly any vessel with one gun deck and 18 or less guns was a sloop or "Sloop of War."  Even when they started ship rigging (building them with 3 masts) these vessels, ones with one gun deck and 18 or fewer cannon, were still called a sloop, hence the term "ship rigged sloop of war."  That's just what I read... I dunno...  :-\  I wasn't there... contrary to what some might think!   :D

Bill!   :o  You had a MacGregor!?  :o  A Mac26!?   :o  I had a Mac25!   :o  Older then the 26 but a nice little boat.   :)  Fast, easy to single hand... I had a slip on Lake Lanier so I never worried about stepping the mast...  :-\

I always dreamed of getting a ketch rigged center cockpit Irwin or Morgan or such, and I was seriously looking at a Hunter 32, but found myself without the free time to sail what I had.   :(  So, I been boatless for the last 10 years or so...  :(

But lately, in the twilight of my years, I often think of having something to sail off into the sunset on...  :-\  Even just a little day sailer...  :-\  Maybe if I put a cannon  on the bow I can call it my sloop of war!   ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline elhoward622

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 100
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 02:18:27 PM »
Well, TM, I sure have learned a thing or two about boats now  ;)!  Yeah, ATL, your definition makes sense.  Our navy would've been made mostly privateers and the like.So pretty much anything would have fallen under the category of "warship."  Any big ships we had were sold to us by the French or Spanish or we captured from the British.

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 03:23:25 PM »
Darn GBO!  Darn this thread!   >:(  I've spent the evening looking at plans for small sail boats!   ::)  Something I can build then throw in or on the car and drive up the road to Lake Allatoona with!  Just what I need!  Another project I'll never get around to...  :-[

Did y'all know you can get plans for 12-14 ft sloop or ketch rigged tenders?  I could use one of those for fishing too...  :-\  Nice little trips to West Point and Lanier for stripers... 100 pound cats...   :P  'course I'd have to get a trailer for it   :(  Wait!   :o  Who am I kidding here...  :'(
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline bilmac

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3560
  • Gender: Male
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 05:57:00 PM »
TM  I made a mast raising pole. Seems to me I had it rigged to use the winch on the boat.

Atl   I have a 12" dory that I made hanging in the garage, haven't had it down in years. I'll probably teach the grand kids to sail it next summer. Great little boat, it started life as my duckboat on the Columbia River with a 6hp outboard. Rowed real good too. Then I added a centerboard and a spirit sail and it did good work getting me around to fish on a small Nebraska lake where motors were prohibited. But I think the most fun I had with it was building it.

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6405
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: Any Revolutionary War Buffs?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2010, 07:44:01 AM »
the term for modern sailors basically means a single masted small sailing craft.

Yup, that's why the phrase confused me and prompted a little research!   :D

But don't you guys bother me anymore!  I'm busy selecting a boat to build!   ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club