Author Topic: Bear guns ?  (Read 10968 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #120 on: March 02, 2012, 01:49:12 AM »
 ;D
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #121 on: March 02, 2012, 02:25:38 AM »
just metion bear protection and all the wanabe great white hunters come out of the bushes!! Id like a tally of all the guys here that posted on this forum that have killed a bear even if just in a hunting situation, as I about know that none have shot one protecting themselves.

  If you have been reading MY post, you would already know you are wrong about that.
 
  DM

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #122 on: March 02, 2012, 05:36:06 AM »
It always ends up talking bear guns when we talk a survival gun be it for a walk or SHTF time. In truth it would seem rats would be more of a problem. Maybe wild dogs and cats ? What will a real end of time one gun need really be ? If many are killed and rats left un checked .............
Any thoughts ?
What gun/guns would really be needed day to day ? Say you are on foot and moving .

The very first post of the thread indicated this is not about which gun is best for bear protection, and yet we have pages of debate on that very thing. In fact, we have debate saying it really should be about bear protection because that's the threat we should all be most worried about when selecting a firearm for walking in the woods.

I have never hunted nor killed a bear in defense. The closest I came to one I had a .44 out and ready. If presented with either opportunity, I would want the biggest thing I could ... but if I didn't have it on me at the moment, I'd still try confident that there is more than one way to kill a bear. Man has been doing it for some time, and what one man can do, another can as well.

In no-kidding actual combat risk management scenarios ... for those of us that have been in firefights and such ... we don't normally pack the biggest piece of gear we have for the 1 in 1,000 scenario. We pack for the daily actual scenario, and up to the most probable scenario for the environment we're operating in. And if the 1 in 1,000 scenario presents itself, and we have not packed the specialized piece of gear ... because o by the way, it weighs a ton, and since its not used regularly, isn't well cared for ... we fall back on training, and ingenuity. Because we've trained to think flexibly, not rigidly around a piece of gear. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

So to the original question, the .22LR will handily do the job the vast majority of us will need a gun for on a regular and frequent basis. Couger's made some great comments on .22 loads, as have others. And if you have more than yourself in your party, and all are armed, and you think through probably scenarios and how you might use the .22 in those scenarios, then when the 1 in 1,000 scenario comes along you are more likely to succeed.

Let's say Bear is a strong possibility for you, What is the gun/caliber that does the other 99% of what you need a gun to do?
held fast

Offline Couger

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #123 on: March 02, 2012, 08:42:33 PM »
Quote from: don heath
On Elephant- the heart is easy from side on- it is bigger than a 5 gal bucket and if you just nick it, the animal will be dead in 80 paces. Works with a bow or a small bore rifle- or a ML. The problem comes when the animal is looking at you/charging- there is basically no oportunity for a heart shot - you have only the brain shot...and that is the technical difficulty. Finding a small target in a large head protected by tusks, massive bone and the sinues that operate the trunk. And even if you do hit the heart  they will find the elephants body about 60 yeards beyond yours. (we seldom shoot elephant at more than 15 yards)
 
Most Pro Hunters (myself included) like the client to take the brain shot (side brain- 4x bigger target) because a) client feels good when it goes down in the classic style - which affects my tip and b) if the elephant doesn't go down instantly I know he has fluffed the shot and it is time to fling a quick heart shot in so we don't loose the animal 

THANX DON!  I always enjoy your posts.  Interesting about how to shoot a relaxed elephant!  Once caught a film clip about Fred Bear (considered by many to be the [commercial pioneer] of the U.S. hunting archery industry)  kill a bull elephant with a single arrow from a recurve bow!  After burying the arrow 2/3's of the way deep in the crease behing its front leg.  Ran about a 1/2 mile before shoving its tusks all the way into the ground as it lunged forward dead.   :o 
 
Saw another clip about a well-known PHU that survived an elephant attack when it ran him down and tried to gore and kneel on him!
 
Never wanted to visit Africa let alone hunt there.  But what is a a typical 1st or 2nd hunt for a typical American or European?  Certainly not for elephants or buffalo!  What kind of experience is required to hunt the big 5 or 6?
 
Also, you said the .44M didn't penetrate well when you shot into whatever beast needed shooting.  Do you recall what the load was or bullet weight and type?  Cheers!   ;D

Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #124 on: March 04, 2012, 01:33:52 PM »
It always ends up talking bear guns when we talk a survival gun be it for a walk or SHTF time. In truth it would seem rats would be more of a problem. Maybe wild dogs and cats ? What will a real end of time one gun need really be ? If many are killed and rats left un checked .............
Any thoughts ?
What gun/guns would really be needed day to day ? Say you are on foot and moving .

The very first post of the thread indicated this is not about which gun is best for bear protection, and yet we have pages of debate on that very thing. In fact, we have debate saying it really should be about bear protection because that's the threat we should all be most worried about when selecting a firearm for walking in the woods.

I have never hunted nor killed a bear in defense. The closest I came to one I had a .44 out and ready. If presented with either opportunity, I would want the biggest thing I could ... but if I didn't have it on me at the moment, I'd still try confident that there is more than one way to kill a bear. Man has been doing it for some time, and what one man can do, another can as well.

In no-kidding actual combat risk management scenarios ... for those of us that have been in firefights and such ... we don't normally pack the biggest piece of gear we have for the 1 in 1,000 scenario. We pack for the daily actual scenario, and up to the most probable scenario for the environment we're operating in. And if the 1 in 1,000 scenario presents itself, and we have not packed the specialized piece of gear ... because o by the way, it weighs a ton, and since its not used regularly, isn't well cared for ... we fall back on training, and ingenuity. Because we've trained to think flexibly, not rigidly around a piece of gear. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

So to the original question, the .22LR will handily do the job the vast majority of us will need a gun for on a regular and frequent basis. Couger's made some great comments on .22 loads, as have others. And if you have more than yourself in your party, and all are armed, and you think through probably scenarios and how you might use the .22 in those scenarios, then when the 1 in 1,000 scenario comes along you are more likely to succeed.

Let's say Bear is a strong possibility for you, What is the gun/caliber that does the other 99% of what you need a gun to do?

 
No grizzlies in my woods, only black bears. I think a 357 mag on me at all times is good. Then again when I had to face one ten feet away with the 357 I really wanted the 12 ga he was standing next to. I was at night and the batteries in the flash light were not very good. If I didn't have the 357 on me I would have had nothing with him standing next to my shotgun. Sometimes I think I should get a 44Mag.



I don't worry about bears in the day time when I can see them coming. It's at night when they are most dangerous. Like in drillingman's post, they can drag you out of a tent before you know what happened. Survival in a EOTWAWKI world means you may have to bug out of the retreat in the forest and live in the forest. When I go out to the car at night to get something, I shine a light in all directions before stepping off the porch. I do not go to the family hunting lodge all that often, but I ran into bears too many times.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2012, 01:36:05 AM »
Wild , lets look at it from a different perspective . ITS A EOTWAWKI , ALL BIG CRITTERS HAVE BEEN KILLED AND EATEN . What cal. would be best to kill rats , rabbits , limb rats etc and still offer security aginst bad men. ? THE BEARS ARE DEAD AND GONE !.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline don heath

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2012, 02:43:55 AM »
Couger - I have some steel jacketed FMJ's that penetrate as well as anything I have seen from a .44 - 270grn at 1300-1350fps
 
In my .41 mag I used steel jacketed 220grn at 1450-1500fps
 
All handguns are underpowered when dealing with anything from 150lbs live weight up- only shot placement counts - and provided your choses handgun has suficient penetration to do the job do you need more?
 
If I am doing a 'demonstration' handgun hunt I'll set up the approach right- If the fight is on the animals (or persons) choosing then I want a rifle!
 
In a survival situation, a bow, trap, or snare is for gathering food- the rifle (and handgun) is for solving problems 

Offline schuetzen

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2012, 05:47:19 AM »
In a survival situation, a bow, trap, or snare is for gathering food- the rifle (and handgun) is for solving problems


I think the "and handgun" (more than one firearm) breaks the rules of this fantasy post.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2012, 08:05:37 AM »
In a survival situation, a bow, trap, or snare is for gathering food- the rifle (and handgun) is for solving problems


I think the "and handgun" (more than one firearm) breaks the rules of this fantasy post.

Not really I ask which one gun . I can see in high population areas a handgun may be the best choice as it can be carried with out notice .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Couger

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #129 on: March 07, 2012, 03:33:30 AM »
Quote from: don heath
Couger - I have some steel jacketed FMJ's that penetrate as well as anything I have seen from a .44 - 270grn at 1300-1350fps
 
In my .41 mag I used steel jacketed 220grn at 1450-1500fps
 
All handguns are underpowered when dealing with anything from 150lbs live weight up- only shot placement counts - and provided your choses handgun has suficient penetration to do the job do you need more?
 
If I am doing a 'demonstration' handgun hunt I'll set up the approach right- If the fight is on the animals (or persons) choosing then I want a rifle!
 
In a survival situation, a bow, trap, or snare is for gathering food- the rifle (and handgun) is for solving problems (I agree with you!  actually Don, your comment here is one of the best and most succinct points on this thread  ;D And i remeber what you said about a dove or two and minimum cooking goes a long ways  ;)  )

Thanks Don!  Since you visit the USA I bet you're already aware Americans cannot use FMJ's to hunt with, and anything with a steel jacket is usually defined as armor piercing (or cop killers?).  I don't doubt its only a matter of "when" I come face to face with another moose (and its sharp hooves if its a cow, or its rack if a bull), whether i ever need to fend off a bear, who knows.  Black bears, grizzlies and moose (with or w/o calves) are probably the most dangerous American game one might be likly to cross. 
 
Sometimes I hear about rut-crazed whitetails goring people, or even rarer an elk, but I'm not sure I've ever heard of a mule deer goring (and killing) a person. 
 
Would I ever need to stop an attack?  Only if I ever decided, "NOPE!  Could never happen to me!"  (can't believe how dumb some of my colleagues are  ;) ).  I've always been the kind of person(or kid when i was young) who would get caught if my peers got away with anything.  I think "irony" and rare-chance is proportionally related to those who are unprepared!  (like o'Toole said "Murphey was an optomist!, that everything eventually will go wrong!")  8)    ;D
 
In the USA most of the HG bullets available to reloaders are not tough nearly tough enough for taking to Africa or dispatching anything tougher than a deer or elk.  But lead-cast bullets from the right alloy and dropped in water often make something hard enough to kill a big bear, or bison or elk or moose!  Plus, looking at the loads offered by Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, or Double Tap to name a couple, its easy to see a .44Mag (or .45Colt+P) would probably be excellent choices almost anywhere in the 48-contiguous states for sidearms used by hunters/hikers/campers/survivalists.  I'd go with the .44M (and .357M) for revolver rounds because they are the two-most-popular (magnum) revolver rounds in the USA.  In the .44M a 270/280 grain cast-core boolit at 1200fps or so ...... is what I'd pack if i was in grizz or BB country, so I could stop an attack IMMEDIATELY, not after the bear mauled and then laid down a minute later.  The .41M by the way, is a superb bigbore round!  But fairly rare in the USA when seeking ammo (like the 16ga, and great round slike the .358Win that never quite caught on).  I shot a M57 S&W once, offered to me by a fellow shooter who happened to be at the same range.  I immediately hit the target well (not having to adjust or get used to anything).  I was impressed!,  but the .41M just isn't well known here. (nor the .54C for that matter).  If I really needed a sidearm, a .40S&W Glock is usually my 1st pick for multiple soft things.  Most American law enforcement use .40S&W's if not 9mm's.  Cheers   8)

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #130 on: March 07, 2012, 03:38:07 AM »
In a survival situation, a bow, trap, or snare is for gathering food- the rifle (and handgun) is for solving problems


I think the "and handgun" (more than one firearm) breaks the rules of this fantasy post.

Not really I ask which one gun . I can see in high population areas a handgun may be the best choice as it can be carried with out notice .


YEP.....DO I NEED TO DIG UP THOSE U-TUBE VIDEOS AGAIN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW ORLEANS??
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
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Offline schuetzen

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #131 on: March 07, 2012, 03:45:19 AM »
In a survival situation, a bow, trap, or snare is for gathering food- the rifle (and handgun) is for solving problems


I think the "and handgun" (more than one firearm) breaks the rules of this fantasy post.

Not really I ask which one gun . I can see in high population areas a handgun may be the best choice as it can be carried with out notice .


Exactly my point.  This fantasy post requires  "or handgun" not "and handgun".
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Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #132 on: March 09, 2012, 10:39:21 AM »
Wild , lets look at it from a different perspective . ITS A EOTWAWKI , ALL BIG CRITTERS HAVE BEEN KILLED AND EATEN . What cal. would be best to kill rats , rabbits , limb rats etc and still offer security aginst bad men. ? THE BEARS ARE DEAD AND GONE !.

 
Nope. Can't do it. Because I don't know what kind of S is going to HTF, I have to prepare for all possibilities. They will kill all the cows in the fields before looking for bears. Lot of big chicken farms to hit before looking for bears. Hunting is a dieing art. City folks will hunt for food in houses long before they head to the woods. They may kill most of the people who do know how to hunt before the hunters kill all the bears. I can't count on them killing all the bears before forcing me out of my home into the home of the bears. Maybe in the rioting some PETA nuts might release all the animals in the zoos. I may have to deal with lions and tigers and bears, oh my! The area in WI I hunted as a teenager is now overrun with wolves, not many deer anymore. A pack of wolves would be worse than a bear.

What I do know is the place I am going to when the SHTF is loaded with bears. They killed pigs and chickens. Pushed a big dead tree over and totaled the truck it fell on. They do a lot of damage. They climb on my porch in the day time, hide behind my car at night.

SHOOTALL your the one that convinced me that I cannot count on the 22lr long term, the heel type bullet and all. If I can only have one it will be a big 357 Mag revolver that I can have on me at all times. The 357 will help me out live the bears. 38S will be good for little rodents.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #133 on: March 12, 2012, 01:32:52 AM »
I like the 30 carbine in a say 308 . It should address alot of situations. I also like a 22 mag rifle.
Hears my take on bears or deer or other critters. Say you live in a state with say a deer / bear popllation of 2,5 million and a population of 10 million . Would the critters last more than a couple weeks ? if hunted ? Some will kill to eat others to trade for other goods. In populated areas I doubt any thing that can be eaten will last long unless protected by armed guards. Fools will kill off the critters with no thought to long term survival.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #134 on: March 12, 2012, 03:55:46 AM »
  You guys need to quit fooling around and buy, the one gun that will "work for everything!"   8)
 

 
  DM

Offline Couger

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2012, 04:24:42 AM »
BEAUTIFUL DRILLING D-Man!  A very NICE piece of equipment!  ;D
 
 
 
But the one-do-it-all piece?  I thought that dead horse at this place prooved one-gun for everything is a nice myth (just like one pair of shoes will serve a wife in multuple roles?  ::)  )
 
And .... along with that drilling, how could you appreciate it as well as you do if you didn't have other guns in your collection to compare it too?  Or several people including family when you're all out hunting or shooting and can't share the same gun?  Gotta have more than one!  ;D

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2012, 04:53:07 AM »
Nice gun !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #137 on: March 16, 2012, 12:55:06 PM »

Hears my take on bears or deer or other critters. Say you live in a state with say a deer / bear popllation of 2,5 million and a population of 10 million . Would the critters last more than a couple weeks ?


 
Yes! The city folks don't know how to hunt. The country folks have more than three weeks food and will stay home to defend their food from the city folks with the AKs and ARs.   The country folks will be overrun and killed buy city folks that do not know how to hunt.  My place in the mountains is indefensible. To survive the city folks with the big guns I have to move from my home to the bears home. The bears home starts at my front and back door and seems to include the chicken coop and dog kennel where they just help themselves to chicken and dog food.
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Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2012, 04:04:09 AM »
A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.   John F. Kennedy

"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under" -Ronald Reagan

“So this is how liberty dies; with thunderous applause.”  Padme Amidala

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2012, 04:27:19 AM »
I really think if ever it boils down to surviving with the equipment and skills you have most Americans will either fail or become fast  learners if they are allowed to live and don't die in the first few days out of pure luck. Many if not most Americans seem to want to be TAKEN CARE OF . I will be honest I have little pratical experince other than camping , hunting , fishing , working in auto and construction jobs and enough living to experince lost power , floods , heavy storms and deep snows. In all the years I have had govt. bring a case of water by during a disaster one time and it was out of date by 3 years. I plan to look out for myself with the help of family and friends. Both woods craft and street wise will be the lessons of the day. I don't expect deer to fair well in the few days after all is lost. Even if it did unless feeding a lot of people it would spoil in the hot mos. The bird , rabbit , limb rar , rat etc will be the food in the worst of times. It will need ammo and a lot of it if the crisis last . The 22 lr seems the choice but it lacks in long term storage and SD roles. The 22 win mag is a better choice IMHO. The 30 carbine used with chamber adapters in a 308 bolt gun may be the best ( or similar) .
Street wise and woods craft will be what keeps you out of harms way like gangs and bears  ;)
In the worst of times what you can tote may be all you can have . And a load of big bullets cuts what you can tote for food , water , clothes , meds etc. THERE WILL BE PAINFUL TRADES .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2012, 05:41:36 AM »
Shootall,
 
   I think that in the end, you are totally correct.  Katrina provided the great lab experiment of what would happen if a mass catastrophy hit a large urban center in America.  We saw the results.    99% of the folks limped to a big town center, waiting for the government to save them, and many just curled up in a ball and died on the sidewalk.  Had the government never arrived, they would have probably hung around another month or so, until typus or cholera broke out, and then maybe all of them would have died.
 
  150 years ago, nobody would have done that.  They would have said, "Well, if we can walk 100 miles north, we will be out of this mess, so let's gather up our packs, our canteens, our six guns and rifles, a pot and some dried food, and start walking.   We can make it in 10 days.   We'll travel in a group of 50 adults for protection.  Well have four armed men out ahead as scouts, and two out aways on each flank to prevent surprise attack.  We'll have a big campfire every night, and take turns standing guard with weapons loaded."
 
   The things that prevent modern urban folks from being able to do this are (i) their utter and unshakeable belief that a government will come and save them, (ii) the fact that more than half are morbidly obese and can't walk a half a mile, and (iii) their total lack of knowledge of anything practical in life. 
 
   And it certainly isn't just minorities.  There would be equal numbers of white people.  Picture the characters of "Seinfield" in such a disaster.  They would have just stayed put in their little apartments, trying to order out for Chinese, and drinking their sparkling  water and Frosted Flakes, until the food ran out and they died, curled up next to their Superman action figures.  Elaine's last words would have been,  "Man, . . . this really sucks."
 
Manny
 
 
 
 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Bear guns ?
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2012, 06:07:39 AM »
Where I live though close to Richmond its simi country. We are on a spur elec service line with 5 other families . When power is lost we ofter go days sometimes as long as 14 days. I grew up in a family that raised their food and canned alot so much so there were can goods 4-5 years old on hand. So doing with out power is not the end of the world. Well after 14 days we were used to going to bed at dark , playing games or reading instead of TV . Guess we reverted back 50 or more years ( I remember our first TV). So I believe so will survive and carry on .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !