Bear guns ?

[SHOOTALL]

 It always ends up talking bear guns when we talk a survival gun be it for a walk or SHTF time. In truth it would seem rats would be more of a problem. Maybe wild dogs and cats ? What will a real end of time one gun need really be ? If many are killed and rats left un checked .............
Any thoughts ?
What gun/guns would really be needed day to day ? Say you are on foot and moving .

[Couger]

Before the reintroduction of the wolf into the Western U.S., I used to foolishly think I could get by with a .357 Magnum loaded with cast-core 180 grain bullets loaded to +P+ pressures.

But like someone said later "BEAR" is a four-letter word and any [handgun] cartridge needs to have "4" in the caliber! (and he meant 'revolver' rounds!  Not enenmic rounds like a .40 S&W)

HOWEVER, If I was in grizzly country (or Alaska in brown bear country), a .44Mag or .45 Colt (+P+) would indeed be my choice of "sidearm" cartridge, but I'd ALSO either have as my main piece a rifle (in .30/06 or .45/70 most likely), or a 12 gauge loaded with 3inch magnum 385 grain "Gold Super-X" Partition slugs (or similar name;  This Winchester saboted-385 grain Partition load generates more than 3400-foot-pounds of muzzle energy, from a .50 cal bullet and more than one-inch long).

Consider that an African lion averages less than 450 lbs for a male and less than 375 lbs for a lioness.  The average Denali Nat'l Park grizzly is supposed to be less than 500 lbs.

But coastal Alaskan brown bears that eat salmon commonly go as big as 1200 pounds and 1600 pounds isn't unusual in certain locations!

And in the last four years I've either seen TV programs or seen on the Net, 3 grizzlies in Idaho that went about 500, 800 and 1,000 pounds!  Those are Yellowstone-class grizzlies!

Who in their right-mind really thinks a .357 Magnum can be counted on to stop a determined grizzly?  Maybe in black bear (only) country a milder round than those needed for Alaska or Northern Canada could suffice in CONUS (48 states), but if one is planning to buy a bear-protection gun,  they need to really know what they're doing!

And be prepared to study many kinds of ammo that is adequate to do the job! 

ADDED:  Notice I didn't mention the use of Foster slugs, usually made of cast soft-lead (they DO NOT penetrate well on big bears studies have found!).  That 385 grain Partition leaves the muzzle at over 2,000 fps, I forgot to add too, and hits HARD.

[b44mag]

ok if i needed a on foot gun for every day i guess it would be a 12 ga.
870 with a good sling folding pistolgrip stock would be my choice
slugs,birdshot and buck shot for ammo

some kind of semi 22 pistol
22/45 4in. bull would be my choice
tactical leg holster

something for hunting longer range
encore pistol in 243 with 2x6 scope
shoulder holster

dont forget the 2 knives
one big thick bladed
one small thin bladed
nice back pack for lots of ammo and necessitys with bladder in it
                                b44mag
lets hope it does not come to it but not looking good is it

[no guns here]

Before the reintroduction of the wolf into the Western U.S., I used to foolishly think I could get by with a .357 Magnum loaded with cast-core 180 grain bullets loaded to +P+ pressures.

I kept waiting for some kind of justification related to wolves and then it was all bears... I'm confused.



NGH

[SHOOTALL]

Guess I messed up , my thought was it will be little things like rats etc that will be our biggest fear. Bears and wolf are big but in most cases avoidable . Vermin may not be two or four ledded. I have seen way more wild dogs than bears. I have dispatched wild house cats back on grand pa's farm many years ago they carried filth , fleas and sickness . I was asking would a medium bore hand gun or such make sense ? Of course domestic stock gone wild would /could be a problem also ? I have always felt bigger might be better but there are other points to consider.

[Couger]

Guess I messed up , my thought was it will be little things like rats etc that will be our biggest fear. Bears and wolf are big but in most cases avoidable . Vermin may not be two or four ledded. I have seen way more wild dogs than bears. I have dispatched wild house cats back on grand pa's farm many years ago they carried filth , fleas and sickness . I was asking would a medium bore hand gun or such make sense ? Of course domestic stock gone wild would /could be a problem also ? I have always felt bigger might be better but there are other points to consider.

If all you're concerned about is "vermin," why are you interested in "bear guns?"  However FWIW, I once helped carry out a black bear in Florida, [quite legally] shot with a 16ga. 

But with what you just wrote ShootAll,  wouldn't a .357M (that's also .38 Special-capable - a mild and pleasant round!), and a fun-comfortable .22LR in a semi or wheelgun be more than handy around a farm?  And all that might be needed?  I could also see having a 9mm or .40S&W if I was in a similar scenario, because I like guns and would have a Glock nearby and might point it at vermin.   

As for heavy ammo loads, if I still lived in N.W. Florida I wouldn't need anything more powerful than a .357, but would still have a few 180grain cast-cores in my ammo safe just to round out my selection of ammo.  Of course I did hear about hunters chasing boars with dogs, not that I ever did.

[Couger]

Before the reintroduction of the wolf into the Western U.S., I used to foolishly think I could get by with a .357 Magnum loaded with cast-core 180 grain bullets loaded to +P+ pressures.

I kept waiting for some kind of justification related to wolves and then it was all bears... I'm confused. NGH

I could try to explain, but would rather keep you 'waiting.'    

You haven't spent much time in the Western states, have you?

[SHOOTALL]

Guess I messed up , my thought was it will be little things like rats etc that will be our biggest fear. Bears and wolf are big but in most cases avoidable . Vermin may not be two or four ledded. I have seen way more wild dogs than bears. I have dispatched wild house cats back on grand pa's farm many years ago they carried filth , fleas and sickness . I was asking would a medium bore hand gun or such make sense ? Of course domestic stock gone wild would /could be a problem also ? I have always felt bigger might be better but there are other points to consider.

If all you're concerned about is "vermin," why are you interested in "bear guns?"  But FWIW, I once helped carry out a black bear in Florida, [quite legally] shot with a 16ga.

I wasn't I was pointing out the post always go to bear guns when in reality there are so many more things that will ruin your day and way more of them.

[Couger]

You wrote the above while I was editing my previous post.

So this wacky thread is a continuation of a completely different thread?  Yeah that makes it easy for the reader to follow!

[teamnelson]

So what I think you're asking ... whenever the subject of a survival gun comes up, why are bears soon into the debate when the chances of actually needing to defend oneself against a bear will be far less likely than needing to pot a rat or feral pet?

Excellent question; the chances of me needing to defend myself against a bear in my current locale is zero, unless one stowed away on a tanker ship. For the vast majority of folks, the likelihood of needing to defend against bears is also going to be zero. Even if you live in bear country, which I have, its not like they routinely attack hikers or represent a menace to society - we leave them alone, they leave us alone. And since people routinely hunt bears with stickbows and muzzleloaders the actual danger, necessitating a large bore firearm with multiple rounds, would stem from a provoked bear, not simply a bear at rest. Even if I was back in bear country I would have to really think about how likely the chance of running into an angry bear might be, and I'd be hard pressed to make that the driving factor behind my firearms choice.

Ergo, my survival gun requirements do not include bear ... or zombies, or hells angels either.

[no guns here]

Cougar,

I guess wolves are immune to a

a .357 Magnum loaded with cast-core 180 grain bullets loaded to +P+ pressures.

That's not my question though... you said that prior to the reintroduction of the wolf, you felt that the heavy .357 was adequate.  Okay, that's great, but the bears were there prior to the reintroduction of the wolf.  You never went ahead and specified just what it was about the reintroduction of the wolf that made you feel that a heavy .357 to be insufficient.  All of your justification was spent dealing with bears and not wolves.  I understand your desire for a larger cartridge for the possibility of bears... but how does that relate to the reintroduction of the wolf?


NGH

[SHOOTALL]

I would guess most large critters will have been killed and eaten in a real SHTF time if it last over a few weeks ?

[Couger]

I suppose everyone looks at "survival" differently, and unless they're military like T-Nelson with however many survival courses under their belt, many ideas people have might be 'theoretical' to a point I'm thinking (doing their "best" trying to design a solution they hope they won't ever find themselves needing).  

I don't live in Alaska where people REGULARLY live with black and brown bears IN THE CITIES (or towns), but I have been close enough to a couple bears that the idea of a "confrontation" isn't that remote to me (despite that wild animals will avoid man, I know of too many stories where healthy cougars or bears have followed (not stalked) people like they were "curious!)  And even sort of innocently, my mother was once almost mauled by a black bear in Yosemite when we were putting food away for the night (quick as a flash the bear got into the back of the car and almost knocked my mom down escaping with an unopened bag of marshmellows!  (we later discovered)  That was at night, pitch black.  

The wolf-reintroduction brought with it a 'pack-animal' or IOW, a threat often involving several animals all at once - not too afraid of people.  Not a single threat like a cougar if that one shows up, or a sow bear with [usually] no more than one or two cubs .....

Some of those wolves have attacked and killed dogs, even cougar-chasing hound-type hunting dogs unafraid of bears!  And the first story I read about [new] wolves involved some cougar hunters in Idaho (who usually only tree a cat, take pics and then let it go), who had six dogs attacked by wolves.  The hunters managed to to take one or two severely wounded dogs to a vet I think both lived.  But by the time they got back to check on the other [dead] dogs, the wolves had eaten everything except the skulls and backbone of their "prey."  

Contrary to myth a wolf rarely goes over 110-140 pounds from what I've learned, but after reading about those wolves in Idaho,  I realized a .35 cal revolver seemed "small!"  As I indicated in a previous post, fellows I've talked with or corresponded shared the anecdotal points about four-letter words and rounds with "4" in their designation.

The general rule with a handgun is to carry "as big" as a shooter can normally handle accurately.

Serious folks who spend enough time in the more remote areas of the Western U.S.A. (or Canada and Alaska) don't scrimp on equipment most times.  If I needed to carry a sidearm in .44 or .45 cal it would be because I spent a lot of time there and the "odds" are not in my favor of avoiding everything.  Of course I'd prefer a longgun over a handgun.

Kind of like "hope for the best, but plan for the worst,"  I would rather be packing a .44 or .45/70-kitchen sink and not need it, than need it and not have it!

For the sake of this thread, the ideal guns I'd want would be something BIG ENOUGH to dispatch the biggest threat me and mine might face, but also a rimfire .22 - that will NEVER go out of style in our lifetimes as a food-getter.

[schuetzen]

ADDED:  Notice I didn't mention the use of Foster slugs, usually made of cast soft-lead (they DO NOT penetrate well on big bears studies have found!).  That 385 grain Partition leaves the muzzle at over 2,000 fps, I forgot to add too, and hits HARD.

Maybe a Saiga 12 gauge with birdshot, buckshot and some steel slug ammo from D. Dupleks?

http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/show/products

[no guns here]

ahhh...  A fairly sensible explanation of the statement about the reintroduction of wolves.  Okay, that works for me.


Thanks,
NGH

[SHOOTALL]

With regard to the wolf it would seem moot as wolf and bear seem to be in the same places. The 40 something idea is good with the exception of fast follow up shots . Best to keep it of a recoil that a fast second shot is possible with possible multi targets. I would also add that bullet selection is critical for bear. With critters how far the bullet will go into the animal is important. I would feel as safe with a 35 cal 180 gr. bullet as a 180 gr 40 cal. bullet of same construction. Maybe more so as the longer 35 would most likely go in farther. With the 44's and 45's I would feel much better armed . We have bear in our yard now. Not often and almost always at night. This started maybe 10 years ago. For the last 3 years we could hunt them. Makes one re-evaluate their choice of protection. But so far no problems and several are now in folks freezers.
I like the 22 & big gun idea ,

[Rex in OTZ]

Its to put it context to what your dealing with......a good start is a Bio by E.N.Woodcock '50 years a hunter and trapper' can be found at Harding Books in Fur Fish and Game Book Market.

.223 works very well on wolves.
Bears are a different body structure, needs more of everything if there excited, best to use a medium to heavy caliber rifle (Ole lady Brower in Barrow shot a 700# polar bear off her deck of her cafe business/home useing what she had... a .270 winchester) bullet placement and adiquate caliber
One could have .458 win mag but if you just wound the animal you might as well be pelting it with pebbles, there are fellas confident of takeing bear useing a .30-30 and .243 (bullet placement)
A very capable defence weapon is the 12gage pump loaded with monolithic slugs (sabots have a tendency to sprue and deflect in bear heavy musle and bone)
My employer has all sorts of workers loose in bush alaska with our different jobs and errands in bear countery, for insurance purposes we all have to qualify useing company issue shotguns and ammo (less liability that way) no hand guns and rifles.
Wolves have been a issue lately in southern Alaska (see ADN news), in other parts the state ther pelt value makes them fair game so in general they avoid humans in places there on the menu.
In populated areas where its more prevalant to not shoot wild creatures they have developed a affinity for pet's as...food. as there is nothing trying to kill them they dont act right.
Same for bears, if we find bears hanging round our work areas couple rubber slugs or bean bag(30 feet max) round's work, to educate they should be scared of humans and to make great haste out the human area.
The State of Alaska has a report to file 'Defense of life or Property Game Animal Kill Report' that  plain regular people &  employer's have to file....a great pain in the butt.... so the standing rule is dont kill the bear/critter makeing the jobsite a hazzard, or youll have the AK state troopers snooping round on your case. the whole bear/critter carcass is forfit to the state in a incident, lots of who/how/why....with big question could it been avoided?.....State will be looking to press charges if the case is proven a wrongfull death of a State designated game animal like a Moose/Bear/Wolf/Muskox(insert game animal name)

[SHOOTALL]

That must be how S.S.S. came into being 

[Pat/Rick]

Was looking at info on placer mining gold (panning and sluicing) in AK awhile ago. The state site recommended that "tourist" leave their pistols and deer rifles at home and bring a 12 ga slug gun with them instead. When I hunt here in WA I usually carry a rifle. When I scout or hike, or just generally in the woods messing about I take my rifle sighted 870 12ga with me, slugs,00buck, and birdshot. Set up from mice to bigger critters. If I had to just have one........YMMV

[pastorp]

If we consider that wesson killed every big game animal in north America with the original 357magnum I don't see why it won't work in a carbine in today's world.  

For me, I'll just take a mini14 or AR15 in 223. I shot for smaller stuff if something big comes along ust shoot em again.

Big bore ammo is to heavy to carry enough with you.

Regards,

[fatercat]

how about a m1a,m14, with a 20 round mag. lots of fire power. any bear can't stand 5 or 10 rounds from that.

[SHOOTALL]

20 rounds  depends on how far away the bear is , how fast the bear can run and how fast you can slip the safety off and work the trigger . The old bear may not have to absorb so many in real life 

[sachel.45]

When I carry a pistol (which is rarely) It usually a .22 mag or a .357 and I've never felt undergunned mostly because i've never ran into to wolves or bears but If I'm carrying long gun its more than likely going to be a remington 870 youth in 20 gauge it's short and light which are important to me otherwise it will most likely stay in the truck or at home. I just need to find a good bear slug for the very very tiny chance that I run into one. I think comfort in a gun and knowing how to use it is more important than power (to a degree)

[Swampman]

A Bear Gun has a stock and a 20"-24" barrel.  A handgun is not a Bear Gun.

[freetrapper]

  One other thing and we are starting to see it now is fearl {sp} dogs. When things get bad pepole turn their pets lose to fend for thierself. They go wild fast , packup and will turn on pepole. As the times are getting somewhat bad now , there is many pets being dumped. Will soon be a big problem.

[pastorp]

Feral dogs have always been a problem. When we hunted in Georgia it seamed like all the farm yard dogs went wild each evening. Their owners didn't know what their pets were doing at night. Or didn't care.   . We shot every dog without a collar in the woods everywhere I've ever lived. If he had a color but was up to mischief those were shot too if we could.

Feral cats are a big problem too and kill a lot of birds & small game. If they would stick to rats but they won't.

Regards,

[pastorp]

Swampy,

Lots of alaskans would disagree with you on revolvers not being good bear medicine. Several successful self defense bear kills with revolvers every year here in the last frontier.

Given a choice I'd choose a rifle but a fellow can't always take a long gun everywhere he goes. 

Rather have a good revolver with me than a 458 at home.

[teamnelson]

Rather have a good revolver with me than a 458 at home.

Amen. Given I don't have to set my holstered revolver down to use my hands for anything unlike any long gun, I'd say that just great increased the odds I'd have some form of reasonable defense.

[mannyrock]

   Wow.  An interesting and confusing  thread.

   As to bears, lets get real:  In a true shtf scenario, there would at a minimum be hundreds of thousands of armed people, roaming every conceivable corner of the lower 48, desperately seeking one thing: food.   Within a few months, all large game, including the large bears, will have been hunted to the brink of practical extinction.  By the end of the 19th century, the grizzly was pushed to the brink of extinction in the lower 48 by folks armed primarly with the .45-70, .38-55 and finally the .30-30.     If a shtf situation occurred, and you saw a grizzly, you would not be saying "Oh no, a grizzly!"   You would be saying, "Oh boy, a grizzly!  Meat!"

    Folks who worry about "death by grizzly" in these fantasy situations are a real puzzlement.  Yes, there is some extremely remote chance of getting killed by a grizzly, but there is probably a 100 times greater chance of dying from dysentary, exposure, cholera, diptheria, influenza, pneumonia, tuberculosis, or malnutrion.   These were the mega killers of the 18th and 19th centuries on the frontier, . . . not bears.

     As far as an all around rifle round, it is my understanding that in Alaska, among the native people, one of the most common survival rounds is the .223.     They use it for practically everything, and this is in a place where small, medium, large and mega large animals abound.

 

[teamnelson]

It always ends up talking bear guns when we talk a survival gun be it for a walk or SHTF time. In truth it would seem rats would be more of a problem. Maybe wild dogs and cats ? What will a real end of time one gun need really be ? If many are killed and rats left un checked .............
Any thoughts ?
What gun/guns would really be needed day to day ? Say you are on foot and moving .

manny, yeah, I think this thread has essentially become what shootall was hoping to avoid ... a discussion on which gun to carry for defense against bears. as you point out, the likelihood of that for the overwhelming vast majority of people in a survival situation is statistically rare. So is being attacked by an armored company of world class infantry, or a cannibalistic horde of motorcycle riding hells angels bent on rape and arson, or a slowly shuffling mass of zombies, or even a rapidly moving mass of bloodthirsty mutants ... and yet those seem to be the types of scenarios many feel it necessary to stock a survival armory for.

I'm convinced that in a EOTWAWKI scenario, most of the ammo will be needlessly squandered in the first few days/weeks. Most of the guns will be operated beyond tolerances, in conditions they were never designed for, by people with no access to parts and maintenance and equipment, and no training in basic weapons care, and will become functionally useless. Most of the large edible animals will be inefficiently slaughtered, most of the useable supplies will be looted and destroyed. Most of the edible crops will be destroyed by fire, or neglect. And a lot of people will die ... all needlessly, because of fear, poor preparation and discipline. But that's humanity for ya. The smart fella with a functioning .22 revolver and a brick of ammo after 6 mos will be a king.