Author Topic: Bear guns ? (Read 11010 times)

1jonmon · « **Reply #90 on:** February 11, 2012, 05:17:39 PM »

"Avoid bears? Yes, as much as possible. But, they can smell food 4 miles away. It is much easier to avoid bad people than bad bears. Oh the trail that my buddy was demonstrating the braveheart bear gun on in post 62 had 2 very large piles of bear scat".

No disrespect but sometimes we armchair these topics to death. If I'm trying to survive in the great outdoors...I'm not avoiding bears, I'm hunting them and hopefully making a rug and some chili...

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #91 on:** February 12, 2012, 01:37:44 AM »

Like 1Jonmon im going looking for them. So are most so dont worry your overpopulation of bear isnt going to last more then a year. By the way ive seen a few bear dumped by a 22lr in the ear. As to them dragging me out of a tent. I hope to never have to be in a tent. Cant see a benifit to one over staying in a house. Weve got ALOT of black bear around here too. Ive shot them off my back porch. But its still rare to walk up on one in the woods. there very weary and dont stick around when they smell or hear a human comming. When you do run into one 99 percent of the time they take off like a freight train. I had one in my life stand its ground. We stood there for a couple minutes (seemed like a couple hours) Me with my 44 in my hand and him with his weapons. It felt like a cowboy gun fight wondering when hed make his move. When he did he turned took a couple steps and sat down in a rasberry bush and started eating. I walked away. Point of all of this is common sense is a much better weapon against a bear then a 500 linebaugh! Dont turn your back and run. Dont throw things at them, do spray things at them. If they want your food give them your food!! Dogs in your neighborhood are probably more dangerous then black bears. Now i dont know about browns or grizzlys as the only ones ive seen have been at yellowstone so i wont give advice there. but with black bear in a survival situation bear steak sure will beat beans and rice all to hell!

1jonmon · « **Reply #92 on:** February 12, 2012, 03:33:28 PM »

Point is if I can't go to the grocery store to feed my family; bear, dog, horse, whatever...I'm gonna take my 22mag pistol and feed them. I don't think anything will survive eight shots from it, most things won't get past 1....

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #93 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:30:06 AM »

There was a guy on a hog hunt that shot a big boar 14 times with a 44 mag. We used to kill 400 + hogs with a 22 shorts . So sometimes things don't go as planned , just saying ........................

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #94 on:** February 14, 2012, 01:35:49 AM »

thats for sure!

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 13, 2012, 05:30:06 AM

There was a guy on a hog hunt that shot a big boar 14 times with a 44 mag. We used to kill 400 + hogs with a 22 shorts . So sometimes things don't go as planned , just saying ........................

don heath · « **Reply #95 on:** February 16, 2012, 08:29:52 PM »

We don't have bears...we do have lions- and looking at the statistics lion and Hyaena attaacks are alot more common than bear attacks. I carry a 329 in .44 mag- before that I carried a M58 (.41 mag) which I actually had to use- I shot a hyaena standing on me one night. Still...in 30 years of almost perminant bush life I have drawn a handgun 4 times from need. Two warning shots and two killing ones. I belive a .357 would probably have serveed me as well as my .41 or current .44. Last week while in the USA i had a chance to fondle a new scandium/Titanium version of the S&W M60 (360?) - great sights, 3" Barrel and light enough to carry all day and never know it. My wife has a steel M60 (3") which I used to rate as the best carry gun for Urban or bush use in Africa but the new model out does it by a long way. Recoil? Heck yes, but then the 329 isn't exactly a bundle of fun to shoot with full power (270grn @1300fps) loads, and considering a real world need of one round every 7 or so years...light and on you beats heavy and at home every time and I have a steel 629 (.44 mag) for practice and competition- I fire the 329 VERY seldomly and usually with squib loads just to check function.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #96 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:55:01 AM »

your Idea of the 360 is a good one. I carry a 340PD , it has a front night sight. It is 12 ozs and I don't know its in my pocket. Its a hard kicker with 357 mag loads but very useable.

chefjeff · « **Reply #97 on:** February 17, 2012, 03:34:23 AM »

A 200# sow with two big cubs tried to take a ML shot buck from me in hyde co. nc three years ago. I retrieved it but was pretty nervous,with my one shooter.Then a rattler gave me a scare. Then I tore up the rear quarter panel on my truck with the four wheeler trailer.This is the condensed version of the story,but I made it home unscathed. Bear guns? In that instance I would have appreciated a 12ga.repeating slug gun.

mannyrock · « **Reply #98 on:** February 17, 2012, 09:52:14 AM »

Once again, this unending, psychotic paranoia about getting attacked by a bear. Grow up. If an end of the world scenario happens, you're gonna be dead from lyme disease from a tick bite within one year, not from a bear bite. And if there are any bear populations around you, they are going to be shot to extinction levels within 6 months, and not by super bear guns, but by 12 gauge slugs, .30-30 carbines, and .223s. Again, get real and grow up.

Mannyrock

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #99 on:** February 17, 2012, 11:29:29 AM »

Manny, if you travel in the northwest Mt., Idaho, and Wy. the bear situation is something to consider...when I fish up in the north country, I always carry a heavy handgun...never needed it, hope I never do, but for some of us it is a real consideration...I am sure mt. lions, stray dogs, etc. pose more of a threat to most of us than bear...but it is something to consider...here, mt. lions often make it into town..no one has been bitten, but my dog is more important to me than all the mt. lions in the state of Wy..As I mentioned in another post, a black bear did come into a FS campground and kill our relatives dog...would a handgun have saved to dog?, I doubt it, but what if the dog wasn't there and made it to the tent which was only 30 feet away...maybe you care to do battle with a toothbrush, I don't...nor do I care to do battle with some drug crazed punk with only my barehands. this is why I have a ccw and I go armed..what I am armed with depends on the area and the need at that time...the real world is not as nice a we would like to believe...

mannyrock · « **Reply #100 on:** February 17, 2012, 11:51:12 AM »

Wyo,

No offense intended. I'm not saying there's no such thing as bears, and I'm not saying to go unarmed. But two good shots from a Marlin .30-30, or one good shot from a 12 gauge with a 3 inch slug, or emptying the mag of a Mini-14 into the animal would have ended the black bear issue that you described in short order. So why is there this ridulously esoteric and endless discussion of how to kill a bear in an end of the world scenario? Millions of folks would be attacked by humans and disease, not bears. Folks might as well fantacize about how to protect themselves against death by bee stings, since that animal will kill thousands more people that bears.

Manny

teamnelson · « **Reply #101 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:18:56 PM »

I may be mistaken, it happens albeit rarely, but might it be said that the bear population in North America was significantly larger before the expansion to the west? And yet the land was not uninhabited was it; I hear tell of these folk called the "first nations" or Indians (they probably called themselves something different, like "The People" or something) who lived here in great numbers, without the benefit of gunpowder. I've also seen very elegant bear skin rugs prepped and decorated by these same folks, with not much more than a sharp sticks and rocks. So there were more bears, fewer people which might make the bears less cautious around people, and no guns.

Perhaps firearms selection should be based on the job it will be expected to do most frequently, and then develop tactics to accomodate those situations that occur rarely, most likely leveraging things like terrain, or personnel. Afterall survival is first and foremost about a will to live, and a willingness to try anything to do so. We add to that a reasonable list of tools to make survival easier, but I don't plan to drag an Ark around in the off chance that the world floods again.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #102 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:36:04 PM »

Manny, I maybe didn't pickup on this as an end of the civilization thing...more of an everyday life outdoors...or everyday life in civilization...Had it been my tent the bear went into or my dog he attacked, most likely I would have had my .45-70 or something equally powerful for defense..BUT it is not fun to pack a long gun while trout fishing in the mts...I am sure you know that, no offense intended...10 years ago, I was fishing a small creek near Dubois, Wy...I foolishly left my .44 in the truck, along with the .375 H & H.....I wasn't 1 /2 mile from the state highway to Jackson...as I rounded an oxbow in the little creek a foul smell hit me in the face...looking around there was a dead elk..winter killed or taken by a predator, I didn't wait to find out..as I looked around for the quickest way to high open ground and the route to the pickup, I saw in the mud a few feet away a clear imprint of a grizzly track in the mud...I felt awful foolish and awfully unprepared as I made my reteat to the pickup...In this part of the country, bears are not the threat they have become up north...but we do have stray pit bulls, coyotes people have tried to tame then turned loose in town, and of course humans...so being prepared is something I have learned to do naturally..
As far as carrying an ark around, me neither, but I will carry my .44..The Indians counted the grizzly as dangerous as a human enemy...and I have never read of them hunting grizzly like buffalo and other game..they may have, but they considered them and enemy equal to themselves...I am sure they were as well armed as they could possibly be..and when they could get guns, they did

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #103 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:40:35 PM »

What if a hungry bear shows up before his 6 month extinction period is up? I don't understand the opposition to preparing for defense against bears. I see those opposed have never faced a bear with only a hand gun, or less. Some even accuse us who have of arm chairing this to death.

The first time I had to face a bear with a 357 mag I really wanted my 12 ga pump. It was only about 25 feet away. But the bear was standing next to it. Lucky for me he didn't know how to use it.

He had been going for one of the dogs. He ran away when we shined a light on him. I thought he was gone. He was only hiding behind a car. I wanted to go and get the 12 ga when he walked out right in front of me. The dogs were sitting ducks chained to a dog house. So we built a kennel to protect them from bears. It didn't work. The bear tore the kennel apart. The dogs don't bark anymore when they see bears. The eat their food as fast as possible instead. The bears made a bloody mess of the chicken coop. None of the chickens survived. I don't have to wait for the SHTF, I have to deal with bears now.

Saw an episode of I Survived. A man was attacked at night by bear while walking his dog. His wife saved him by chasing the bear off with a hand gun. It took a lot of stitches to put him back together again. Saw a History Channel show about early explorers in the west. I was amazed at how many were killed or maimed by bears. One guy forced his buddy to sew his face back on.

If you want to try to survive with only a 22 hand gun, go ahead.

teamnelson · « **Reply #104 on:** February 17, 2012, 03:52:31 PM »

If defense against bears is a high risk for you, plan accordingly. Me, I'll have other things to defend against before I get to bear country.

mannyrock · « **Reply #105 on:** February 18, 2012, 03:31:00 AM »

For the decade prior to becoming a Congressman, Davy Crockett made his living in Tennessee by being a black bear hunter. During that decade, he killed over 800 black bear, using 3 or 4 dogs and a couple of Kentucky long rifles, probably in .30 caliber. He sold the skins, lard and meat. They ain't hard to kill.

I live in the Shenandoah Valley and routinely encounter large black bear on the mountain sides, but no, I don't live in mortal fear of being attacked. A run-of-the-mill Blackhawk in .357 or .44 mag would be more than enough.

If you are really worried about a bear attack and want to carry a heavier hand gun, then fine, just carry a .454 Casull and be done with it. If you want to carry a long arm, then fine, carry a Marlin lever action in .45-70 and be done with it.

As for me, I am 50 times more worried about a bite from a Timber Rattler. Far more common and far more deadly.

Last November, on signal mountain, near Strausburg, in my county, a black bear was killed that had a pre-dressed weight of 510 pounds. Nobody had even seen him before.

Mannyrock

Drilling Man · « **Reply #106 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:30:22 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on February 17, 2012, 09:52:14 AM

Once again, this unending, psychotic paranoia about getting attacked by a bear. Grow up. If an end of the world scenario happens, you're gonna be dead from lyme disease from a tick bite within one year, not from a bear bite. And if there are any bear populations around you, they are going to be shot to extinction levels within 6 months, and not by super bear guns, but by 12 gauge slugs, .30-30 carbines, and .223s. Again, get real and grow up.

Mannyrock

I guess the time i was hunting and a big brown bear charged me big time, i didn't need a gun, i just needed to "grow up!"

And i guess the time i was sleeping in a tent out in the Canadian bush and a big blk. bear ripped a hole in the tent and decided to come in, i didn't need a gun! I needed to "grow up!" cause none of that could happen!

I could go on, but i don't want to bore anyone with more FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES of things that i just needed to "grow up" over...

DM

Couger · « **Reply #107 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:28:16 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man

I guess the time I was hunting and a big brown bear charged me big time, I didn't need a gun, I just needed to "grow up!"

And I guess the time I was sleeping in a tent out in the Canadian bush and a big blk. bear ripped a hole in the tent and decided to come in, I didn't need a gun! I needed to "grow up!" cause none of that could happen!

I could go on, but I don't want to bore anyone with more FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES of things that I just needed to "grow up" over... DM

Glad you lived to tell the tale!, Drilling Man. Along with a few new grey hairs?

Thanks for your post!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #108 on:** February 27, 2012, 02:27:31 AM »

Gee Wizz the point of the post is most won't need a bear gun as food will be tree rats , rabbit , ground hogs , rats , etc .

Couger · « **Reply #109 on:** February 27, 2012, 10:29:54 AM »

Shootall, there are real differences of opinion (and reality) between folks in some locales of the country, and other folks who deal with much different day-to-day possibilities (who are prepared oftimes to meet their own problems! I specifcally mean folks in the flyover states not in the "east.")

Regarding this thread and frequent discussion around here, many Americans in the western 3/4's of conus want something bigger than a .22 (only) to survive with, and something else available to them when 35-caliber/9mm is just too small to defend with!

Now if that bothers folks who like nice "cutesie little things" neatly wrapped in pleasant-looking packages .....? I and others have said (written) several times that .22 rimfires (in infinte forms, sizes, configurations) are GREAT for collecting food and some limited defense needs.

However sometimes there are a couple critters in the USA larger than bears that sometimes hurt man, but mostly any buffalo nowadays are found in private herds, and any moose likely to come into town are probably most numerous in Alaska! But neither of those two have claws and teeth that are constantly looking at everything they see as a potential next meal.

And every couple three years here in WA state, its not uncommon to have at least one or more elementary schools go into lock down during the day, when a bleck bear wanders onto a playground ..... Always gets in the news. If Yogi isn't so cute and cudely, when is a .22 going to stop him!? If Yogi and Bubu get beligerant!!?? No maulings have occurred in recent memories, if that will just continue!

Now, if someone lives around Jackson, WY or Gardner or Cook City, Montana, that "bear" might instead be a grizzly in the Rocky Mountain states, and be in its typically grounchy mood! (something that often weighs over 500 pounds) Is a .357 always big enough? Hence the catch-all 'bear guns.' Of course in that case a better tool than a .357 or .44 is a .45/70 or .30/06, but thats beyond this thread.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #110 on:** February 27, 2012, 10:45:07 AM »

I'm on a budget for gun and ammo... and if bear might be on the menu, how about as Mosin? 203gr SP ought to do the trick...

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #111 on:** February 27, 2012, 10:45:52 AM »

I don't care for a 22 really. I like a 308 with chamber adapters (I think) . I don't really understand the cuts about the east . We have Elk , mouse, All kinds of domestic critters and in more concentrated areas due to better pasture land. I have bear in my yard from time to time and a zoo with tigers , lion , gators and all sorts of other big bad critters that could escape in a bad time. I agree about the difference in opinion. But we will all need to eat and if on the move or not it would seem one gun that could fill the most needs would have universal appeal.

Couger · « **Reply #112 on:** February 27, 2012, 11:28:52 AM »

I agree .22's are important! And those the chamber adapters indeed show lots of promise, given adequate patience with them.

Somewhere I have a .32ACP/.308 adapter, but a better choice is with a .30Carb. however I had 3 of the enameled steel .30C adapters from McAce Sports out of Anchoage, AK. One of them worked well enough in my Handi-Rifle, but the other two appeared to have too much paint/enamel in them to work well. rather than risk jimmying them, ruining them - I sold them.

However ..... I'd like to aquire some stainless steel adapters, that have no enamel on them and rely on the exactly correct length of the .30Carb casing to head space properly.

The .30Carb adapters if they can be "indexed" to shoot accurately with whatever .308 or .30/06 the adapter is for I think could be used for squib or small games loads all the way up loads powerful enough to dispatch deer at close range (with 125 or 130 grain bullets under 50yds). I also hope to get a couple .308/.30-06 adapters, to shoot .308 ammo in a .30/06. (McAce makes similar adapters for shooting the 7.62X39 in both of those).

McAce also makes barrel inserts that are worth considering too.

Maybe someone has had great luck using those adapters? and will share their experience?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #113 on:** February 28, 2012, 01:26:18 AM »

I just ordered the SS 308 to 30 carbine adapter . Will try them out and let ya know. I have killed several deer with a USGI carbine and 110 gr HP and SP bullets. Never tried the FMJ. The HP or SP will take deer very well under 75 yards if deer are not being run. Bucks of any size most of the time take several shots . With a better bullet and 50 yards or less it would make a good round. Most bolt guns have longer bbls and would raise vel .

don heath · « **Reply #114 on:** February 28, 2012, 10:55:55 PM »

I have shot elephant and Buffalo with a .41 mag and had clients use .44s (and bigger)on lion up to elephant.

Shot placement is far more critical than power- on something the size of a lion (and Brown bear are bigger) the .44 is fairly pathetic- not powerful enough to make it notice unless you hit something vital. Same applies to elephant but even more so.

So my thoughts are that a well placed .357 is going to to do the same job as the .41 and .44

Couger · « **Reply #115 on:** March 01, 2012, 09:26:54 AM »

Quote from: don heath

I have shot elephant and Buffalo with a .41 mag and had clients use .44s (and bigger)on lion up to elephant. Shot placement is far more critical than power- on something the size of a lion (and Brown bear are bigger) the .44 is fairly pathetic ..... huhhh?

Hey Don! Your post sounds a bit like the admonisions of a realtor; location, location, location! (of the shots made).

How long once shot by any of those does it take a full grown cow or bull elephant to get 'sick' and lay down? And then finally die? Just as remarkable (from the boobtube (TV) are the pics of the local villagers butchering and hauling away a beast as big as an elephant! Making one disappear as quickly as they do.

How big is a herd bull anyway?

How big is an elephant's heart? Bigger than a basketball perhaps? regardless it sounds increduble! Surprised to hear a .44M isn't always effective. Is that because the bullet might be too soft? Cheers.

schoolmaster · « **Reply #116 on:** March 01, 2012, 05:39:35 PM »

Has anyone ever successfully defended themselves from a brown or grizzly bear attack (when the bear really meant business) with a pistol like a 44 mag?

don heath · « **Reply #117 on:** March 01, 2012, 07:47:30 PM »

The best I have persoanlly seen is an elephant take 4 hits from a .700 NE (2000grn Bullets going at 2000 fps) and stay on its feet and another take three hits from a .470 NE and two from a .500 NE without even really breaking it's stride. On the other hand- as a parks officer I have killed elephant with both a 7x57 and 7,62 Nato- wouldn't recomend it but as a wildlife officer you did what needed doing, when it needed doing with the tools on hand and made excuses later.

Lion are two different animals. Taken unawares they are easy to kill- a 12g with AAA will do the job as will a .303 or even I dare say a .22 mag. When they are angry and fighting I have seen soft point bullets from a .458 Win and 000 buckshot fail to penetrate the chest muscles. I cary FMJ bullets in my handgun for bush use - Lion, elephant and buffalo are too big to be impressed by the muzzel energy of anything under .500NE, so it comes down to putting the bullet in the right place- then they die very quickly. Leopard (a big one weighs around 190lbs) are small enough that a powerful handgun can make itself felt and the Professional Hunters that specialise in leopard tend to favour .50 AE, .480 Ruger, 454 Casul etc as their back up handgun.

With anything much bigger - like a 500lb lion with chest muscles 6" thick (and tensed muscle is harder than bone) I need to hit the heart, the brain or break the spine- then it dies. If I don't, I can punch all the holes I want in it and I will still get chewed over and it is small consilation if it dies 20 minutes later from a lung hit if you look like some of the poor tribesmen I have picked up after a going over!

don heath · « **Reply #118 on:** March 01, 2012, 08:10:45 PM »

On Elephant- the heart is easy from side on- it is bigger than a 5 gal bucket and if you just nick it, the animal will be dead in 80 paces. Works with a bow or a small bore rifle- or a ML. The problem comes when the animal is looking at you/charging- there is basically no oportunity for a heart shot - you have only the brain shot...and that is the technical difficulty. Finding a small target in a large head protected by tusks, massive bone and the sinues that operate the trunk. And even if you do hit the heart they will find the elephants body about 60 yeards beyond yours. (we seldom shoot elephant at more than 15 yards)

Most Pro Hunters (myself included) like the client to take the brain shot (side brain- 4x bigger target) because a) client feels good when it goes down in the classic style - which affects my tip and b) if the elephant doesn't go down instantly I know he has fluffed the shot and it is time to fling a quick heart shot in so we don't loose the animal

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #119 on:** March 02, 2012, 01:01:12 AM »

just metion bear protection and all the wanabe great white hunters come out of the bushes!! Id like a tally of all the guys here that posted on this forum that have killed a bear even if just in a hunting situation, as I about know that none have shot one protecting themselves. Don may have some unique opinions as hes at least shot dangerous animals. Its about like asking a bunch of civilians that never have been in a fire fight what gun is best for that purpose. If the world is colapsing and your even spending a couple minutes worrying about a frigging bear attacking you your probably the type that will be dead from starvation in no time anyway and if not youll surely be dead from a heart attack from worrying about crap that doesnt mattter.

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 27, 2012, 02:27:31 AM

Gee Wizz the point of the post is most won't need a bear gun as food will be tree rats , rabbit , ground hogs , rats , etc .