Subsonic 30-30?

[jason045]

Anyone ever tried loading a 30-30 down to subsonic velocities.  Say a 210gr berger vld over a charge of trailboss at around 1000fps?  I think the 1:10 twist would stabilize the slug.  Sort of another version of the "poor mans .300 whisper?  I have an idea brewing in my head...

[Rustyinfla]

   try  doing a web search for cat sneeze loads and yoou'll come up with more ideas.

[gcrank1]

Ive done it with 100-115 and 170-180ish cast bullets.
I settled on the light ones as the fun, plinking, close varmint load (32-20 equiv.) and the heavier at about 1450fps (32-40 equiv.) for more serious work. With some 150 factory loads or equiv. I got it all.

[wreckhog]

1.6cc scoop of Trail Boss behind a 165 grain cast is right on the border, around 1k fps, subsonic velocity is gonna be based on barrel length. I find these loads much quieter than factory loads, but certainly much louder than a .22 standard velocity.

[gcrank1]

Poor Man's Whisper, I like that, .30 PMW, it has a nice ring (especially when that quiet thing nails a steel silhouette).
No expansion to be depended on with jacketed at those low velo's, but if you dont want pelt damage....; and cast would do as well.
These are the kind of custom loadings that folks that dont reload miss out on, and the factory will never make.

[petemi]

Boy, I am I glad I don't have to worry about super sonic noise.  I shoot whatever I'm in the mood for, and usually the bigger the better.  I'm heading out right now to wring out the .357 Maxi with a new scope.  It'll be shooting super sonic for sure.  The next one up is the .445.

Pete  

[Shu]

Sometimes it is nice for a nice quiet load. Other times I like to crush and poke huge holes through stuff.

Subsonic out to 300 yards is a non issue if you know your rifle and practice. Subsonic ammo does not loose much speed if you use long for caliber bullets and don't care about expansion. A 200 grain 30 caliber with a high ballistic coeficient will hit at 300 yards with a slight foot pound advantage over the 44 magnum. Advantage to the 44 for hole diameter. The shooter must practice to compensate for bullet drop.

[Sourdough]

I thought the 30-30 was already sub-sonic.  Just kidding guys.  I have never downloaded for the 30-30, but I do down load for my 30-06 with a suppressor.  I use Trail Boss and only shoot sub-sonic loads through that particuler gun.  As "shu" said trajectory is a lot differant.  Once I got the gun set up to shoot the way I wanted it to shoot I left it that way and only shoot sub-sonic loads through it.  It's great for removing neuscence animals in my yard.  It's always a hit at the range as well.  Twice thou I've had someone call the Fairbanks Police and they have come out and checked out my suppressor and my permit to have a suppressor.  Seems many people think they are Illigal to own or use. 

[gcrank1]

Busy bodies like that should be illegal.......

[ricktile]

I shoot subsonic and suppressed with both the .308 and 30-30.  Works fine in both my guns using trail boss and cast lead bullets.  I am using 180 gr cast bullets.  Tried 200 grain bullets but they didn't stabilize well with the 1-10 twist.  Probably would be much better with a 1-9 for the heavier bullets.

[Dinny]

I have shot my 30-30 with 220gr Hornady RN bullets and just enough TB powder to make the bullet clear the barrel. Accuracy wasn't great at 25yds. What I did find to work very well was a 168gr Oregon Trail cast bullet and just a little bit of TB powder. It's quiet and accurate at 40yds. It worked great on big raccoons too.

Thanks, Dinny

[gcrank1]

Din, were you trying to see just how slow you could go? I know you know that until you break the sound barrier its still quiet (ie, the 'sub-sonic). I think if you get it running 900-1050fps the accuracy would be better.

[mannyrock]

  Interesting thread.  Anyone know  how the 200 grain .30-30 bullet at subsonic speed works on deer out to about 100 yards?  Or, is this just a real bad idea.

    Maybe a subsonic .35 Remington with a caste bullet would do better??

Thanks, Manny

[Shu]

No bullet expansion.  The best advice would be no this is not a good application for it.

A 35 caliber subsonic would be a little better but still below what I would consider a good deer choice.

The subsonic 30 caliber loads are better for varmints or small game. The Military was/is interested in this for urban warfare. A 5.56 diameter bullet at less than the speed of sound is not real breath taking.

[gcrank1]

+1 that!
And for shooting targets for fun without a lot of noise and recoil; way cool on steel, the twack is way out of proportion to the sound & non-existent kick.

[geezer56]

I have a 7.62X39 Handi that I call the commie whisper.  With a 180 grain bullet, and a pinch of uniqe, actually 3 gr., it sounds like a cap gun.  Haven't run it over a chrony, but I guestimate 800 fps.  I also use the same load of powder and a 115 gr bullet, it's a bit noisier, but still quiet.  Fun to explode water bottles and the occasional varmint.  It will crack an armadillo like an egg with either load, and is a squirrel getter up to 75 yds or so.  The old 30-30 shouldn't work much different.  You just have to make sure to use enough powder to get the bullet out of the barrel, stuck bullets are hard to remove, and shooting them out isn't an option!

[jason045]

I did a little more research on this and came up with some interesting stuff.  Looks like the 240gr sierra matchking @ 1050fps is the way to go.  Found an article on the JDJ family of wispers and it touts the .300 as deadly on whitetails at close range.  The B.C. on this bullet is an incredible .685 so at 100 yards it is still scootin along at 1016fps!  Heck, it maintains over 500 ft-lbs of energy out to 250yds.  Ya'll are right about there not being a bullet that will expand at this low velocity, but heres the kicker. The bullet being barely stable, begins to tumble on impact.  This in essence translates to 700% expansion!  The real killing power and wound channel comes from the instability of the bullet at it makes contact.  This definitely warrants further investigation and experimentation!  I smell a new project in my future!

[gcrank1]

IIRC, when they developed the 30-06 the ability to stabilize the 220 gr. Mil-spec bullet was why the 1:10 twist was needed. The 1:12 was actually more accurate with the lighter, and subsequently used 180(?)gr.
Now, we all know those were moving well more than the SoS (speed of sound) and will stabilize at lesser velo, but I do have to question that 240gr. Lonnggg bullet at that 1080ish(?) launch velo. unless a twist is maybe faster than 1:10? At least, it is worth the question.

[Dinny]

Din, were you trying to see just how slow you could go? I know you know that until you break the sound barrier its still quiet (ie, the 'sub-sonic). I think if you get it running 900-1050fps the accuracy would be better.

Thanks for the tip. I'll try a little more powder and see what I get. Without doubt, I found the 30-30 easier to load subsonic loads for than the 30-06. The 30-06 has more case capacity and therefore more void after the powder is dispensed. What's that called, the powder column? The relation of powder to space, etc... Kinda the reason why short fat cartridges are more efficient than long skinny ones??

Here's a link to some of my reduced load reports.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,208470.0.html

Thanks, Dinny

[Shu]

Not enough twist in the handi barrel for a subsonic 240 grain bullet to stabilize. I am against counting on a bullet to tumble on impact. Yes it does happen, but that doesn't mean it always will.
Calculated bullet upset is not always the same as actual firing the bullet into a target.
Don't misunderstand and think I am a nay sayer. I love the concept and use it myself. I just try to match the gun with what I am doing. Small game heck yes go for it. Deer , you need to get alot of trigger time and be sure of shot placement and IF the bullet will tumble on impact. I am betting it won't stabilize a 240 grain though. Good Luck and keep us posted. I am always looking for good data on this.

Hopefully you will have great success, I love the concept.

[panman]

Hay guys and gals,try 32cal bkack powder rd balls,110-115 grs.They shoot great up to about 75 yds.T 115s shoot beter in my Marlin.50 yds and 10 shots produce a hole about the size of a quater.Crimp them about half way in.A LOT of fun.Noise level is great and kids love em.pan.

[panman]

Sorry people i ment DIA insted of grs. .pan.

[Rustyinfla]

   I've shot .311 round balls with nothing more than a primer. I find I get better results  by seating the ball flush with the case mouth and putting a drop of Lee liquid alox on top of the ball. I was thinking of using plain paraffin  instead but never got around to it. I found that shooting just a plain ball with no lube and only the primer ended in a stuck ball on the 3rd or 4th ball. Adding the lube seemed to fix that, and with no powder.

[thejanitor]

O.T. I loaded a .223 rem with a 55 gr bullet and 4 gr. Trail Boss last night and stepped out the back door and shot it into a log. On a calm COLD winter night it sure seemed loud, but it lacked the CRACK of a 22 long rifle. So I will play around more with them, I didn't inspect the log to see if the bullet was tumbling or not I just wanted to see how loud it was in if it would clear the bore before petering out. I am sure POI will be off from regular loads by a mile.  This was in a 24 inch bull barrel. No high pressure signes at all.  Good luck,  thejanitor

[jason045]

I talked to my dad and he told me that he worked up some loads for a fellow with a 30-30 once before using the 220 matchking and a 1:10 barrel that did stabilize.  The 240s are a question mark.  SSK industries/JDJ says you need a 1:8 but I think Im gonna give em a shot anyway.  As far as the bullet tumbling on impact, JDJ uses that as a selling point for the whisper and I've read several articles that testify to this as well.  Again, I'm more of a "seeing is believing" kind of fellow so maybe I'll try some in ballistic gelatin and see what happens.  I just warked a trade on a 30-30 barrel, so I wont have it for a little while.  But soon as im up and running with this I'll give some results.

[Dinny]

The 220gr Hornady SP did stabilize for me in my 30-30 Handi. I shot a few of them into a 6x6 wooden post for penetration testing. I recall only seeing a straight-line hole some 2" into the post.

Thanks, Dinny

[gcrank1]

Of course, twist is only part of the equation on stabilization; if you are going slow and marginal for stabilization you can increase velocity. This may or may not stay sub-sonic, but it may make the bullet of choice work.
Where one can get into trouble is on the other end, where you dont have enough twist and already at top loads, or with classic cartridges with big, long, heavy bullets where you cant take any more recoil along with the velocity.

[wreckhog]

O.T. I loaded a .223 rem with a 55 gr bullet and 4 gr. Trail Boss last night and stepped out the back door and shot it into a log. On a calm COLD winter night it sure seemed loud, but it lacked the CRACK of a 22 long rifle. So I will play around more with them, I didn't inspect the log to see if the bullet was tumbling or not I just wanted to see how loud it was in if it would clear the bore before petering out. I am sure POI will be off from regular loads by a mile.  This was in a 24 inch bull barrel. No high pressure signes at all.  Good luck,  thejanitor

If you have a .22, try Aguila SSS 60 grain. Sub Sonic Sniper. Real cheap, subsonic, no crack, yet still quite loud, won't stabilize in my 22's, tumbles/keyholes like crazy.

[gcrank1]

It is too long a bullet to stabilize in the std 1:16, .22LR twist by design, though it has done pretty well in several of mine (with shorter barrels) to about 30yd.

[Dinny]

It is too long a bullet to stabilize in the std 1:16, .22LR twist by design, though it has done pretty well in several of mine (with shorter barrels) to about 30yd.

Works good in my standard Ruger 77-22, but not the 10-22.

Thanks, Dinny