Author Topic: The Auschwitz album. Can't happen here?????? (Read 13393 times)

ironglow · « **Reply #90 on:** December 20, 2010, 07:01:04 AM »

"the poet" says;

   Gentlemen,

   Everything we have heard about WW2 and Germany, on T.V. and in print,
in our lives was a lie. Hitler 'DID' shake hands with Jesse Owen,
I was 7 years old and I could see the film jump ahead 5-10 frames as Hitler approached,
then turned away from Jesse, the FBI made him never mention it on pain of prison.
It was all a lie and I hate lies.

   Mr Poet;
   You were 7 years old in 1936..how's your memory holdfing on that "film jump" ? Not that it matters whether Hitler shook hands with Jesse Owens or not, because people shake hands often..sometimes happily, sometimes reluctantly.
   The part that amazes me is that in your denouncement of the holocaust you cite Hal Turner as an authority on the subject. I really think you should have warned people just what kind of fellow Hal Turner is. While I rarely agree with the SPLC or CNN and almost never with the ACLU..and I do agree that Political Correctness could be the ruin of our country. I think it only fair to introduce your authority on the holocaust, this by way of a video from CNN;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H14sowqqH9Q

   .

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #91 on:** December 20, 2010, 08:11:39 AM »

Poet, I went to your link and it was listed as, nothing found for holocaust, My german is poor so I missed some of the words listed. (in german), could you provide another link for the topic? Thanks

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #92 on:** December 20, 2010, 08:22:09 AM »

My cousin Anne stated that "Hitler vas a crazy mann". She, like many others were conscripted into service.Her husband was conscripted into service in the wehrmacht as an infantryman, he was listed as KIA on the eastern front.Anne stated that she did not know about "the holocaust"per say. She did know that some people of certain ethnicities were being rounded up and taken away to camps, but not the deaths. She was stationed in France.
A soldier, whether enlisted or conscripted, on our side or, the other side, has my respect, a soldiers respect.

wreckhog · « **Reply #93 on:** December 20, 2010, 09:15:13 AM »

Many great military forces are mostly conscripts. Israel. Or the US during WW2.

ironglow · « **Reply #94 on:** December 20, 2010, 01:01:52 PM »

Quote from: Pat/Rick on December 20, 2010, 08:22:09 AM

My cousin Anne stated that "Hitler vas a crazy mann". She, like many others were conscripted into service.Her husband was conscripted into service in the wehrmacht as an infantryman, he was listed as KIA on the eastern front.Anne stated that she did not know about "the holocaust"per say. She did know that some people of certain ethnicities were being rounded up and taken away to camps, but not the deaths. She was stationed in France.
A soldier, whether enlisted or conscripted, on our side or, the other side, has my respect, a soldiers respect.

Pat/Rick;
I believe you are 'spot on' in your picture. Those distant from the camps knew people were being rounded up and they had an inkling that something was 'fishy' since they were not heard from again, nor did they return.
Those closer to the camp could not miss the smoke from frying, perhaps the truckloads of shoes, human hair etc coming out the gates and a thousand other clues, plus the truck drivers and service personnel too. Then there were perhaps drunken guards talking within earshot of civilians. I know just how civilians could often tell us what was going on at our post, even before we knew it..

ironglow · « **Reply #95 on:** December 20, 2010, 01:32:13 PM »

Again TM;
  You didn't read my posts...some of my most pertinent information came from some people WHO WERE IN the Auschwitz concentration camp until liberation, and the troops who told me about the liberation ...and were there at the liberation.
   I took my tank training at Fort Knox in 1955. In my platoon was a young man (about my age, 18) named Jackobsen, he was originally from the Hague, but hauled off to one of the camps.
  Unfortunately, I did not talk at length with him about his experience, but he did show me the tattooed number on the inside of his forearm and explain where he got it. As I recall, he had some strange scars directly behind each ear..and I have often since wondered, had he met someone like Dr Mengele ?
  Surely, my evidence must be better than anything you can offer...unless you were one of the SS guards..

BTW: If there is an old tanker here named Jackobsen with such a tattoo, and who took tank training at Ft Knox in 1955...PM me please !

billy_56081 · « **Reply #96 on:** December 20, 2010, 02:16:35 PM »

IG, the TM's are not interested in people who have had personal contact with the survivors of the death camps. It does not fit the TM's agenda of virulent hatred of Jews. If ya show that what the TM's are spewing is incorrect, they will either change the subject or avoid it. The TM's tried to go with the energy consumption on the ovens, and when they were confronted that they were wrong, they changed direction.

You TM's are so predictable.

powderman · « **Reply #97 on:** December 20, 2010, 02:45:06 PM »

BILLY. So true. The tms also said they doubted I knew any of the Gis that helped liberate those camps, but I did. I also met a survivor of a death camp at a pro gun rally in Ill many years ago, he told stories of how they were conquered and advised us, don't ever register your guns. POWDERMAN. The tms don't learn much. POWDERMAN.

-Shaggy- · « **Reply #98 on:** December 20, 2010, 03:29:30 PM »

Quote from: The Poet on December 20, 2010, 04:34:59 AM

Gentlemen,

Blah, blah, blah........

In 1979, an "offical document" from the Red Cross puts the deaths from concentration camps at about 270,000. Then, in 1996, the Red Cross admits they have been lying about the Holocaust for over 50 years.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02EFDD1731F93AA25751C1A960958260

"For the most part, however, the Red Cross's assistance came late in the war and beneficiaries were relatively few compared with the millions of people who died in the camps."

''There is no question about it,'' he said. ''People, good people, decided to look the other way, including people in the Red Cross and in Britain and the United States.

''Always when people speak out, lives are saved. ''I wouldn't describe them as villains but as part of the world that found it more convenient to remain silent.''

Mr. Ioanid said, ''There is no doubt that the Red Cross let itself be used by the Nazis.''

ironglow · « **Reply #99 on:** December 21, 2010, 04:13:43 AM »

  TM;
   Evidently you have difficulty dealing with concepts! There are no "Stars of David" in our church, in fact a cross about 5'X9' stands up front (I know because a friend and I built it). It stands there alone, save for being flanked by the Christian and US flags.
   You accuse dedicated Christians such a PM, Billy and myself of negating the cross, when you and most here obviously know full well where we stand.
   If anyone is clearly trying to negate the cross; it would be someone who supports and defend the deniers of Jesus and His cross ! When one supports and defends those who claim Jesus was not the son of God and his blood has no cleansing power...and back their beliefs with bombs, guns, terrorism, rape, beheadings..torturing people and hanging them from bridges...he is helping terrorists AND doing his best to negate the cross.
As far as our relationship to the Jews..one can respect his older brother, while not necessarily agreeing with him on every point.

Certainly those who wish, can fish all kinds of numbers from the internet, in order to deny truths. If they want low numbers, there are many of the "hate America/Israel" crowd who will furnish them all the ammo they need or want...just as Iran furnishes ammo & materiel to the terrorists in Afghanistan.
Check this website for instance,..Yes, it does provide some of the ammo used by the hate America crowd...but beyond that just look up and down the right and left columns and see who/what this website considers honest and credible;

http://musliminsuffer.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/official-records-from-international-red-cross-prove-holocaust-was-a-fraud/

powderman · « **Reply #100 on:** December 21, 2010, 04:24:22 AM »

you might want to read Rabbi Weissmandl's " 10 Questions for the Zionists", 1948, wherein he intimates the holocuast was artificially planned by the zionist in the first place...(

HEH. tm #2. I reckon that explains it, 6 million Jews committed suicide. You are a riot, just more drivel to try to take away what Gods people have suffered. Pitiful.
Read this morning that your friends launched a rocket attack and narrowly missed an Israeli daycare center. WOW, had they pulled that off they would be on cloud nine, just imagine, murdering a whole school full of Jewish babies, wow, really something to be proud of, only a muslim could be proud of murdering babies. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #101 on:** December 21, 2010, 04:33:16 AM »

Quote from: powderman on December 21, 2010, 04:24:22 AM

you might want to read Rabbi Weissmandl's " 10 Questions for the Zionists", 1948, wherein he intimates the holocuast was artificially planned by the zionist in the first place...(

HEH. tm #2. I reckon that explains it, 6 million Jews committed suicide. You are a riot, just more drivel to try to take away what Gods people have suffered. Pitiful.
Read this morning that your friends launched a rocket attack and narrowly missed an Israeli daycare center. WOW, had they pulled that off they would be on cloud nine, just imagine, murdering a whole school full of Jewish babies, wow, really something to be proud of, only a muslim could be proud of murdering babies. POWDERMAN.

PM;
Correction, there are a few "doctors" here in the US...who seem to be proud of murdering babies...

powderman · « **Reply #102 on:** December 21, 2010, 05:03:47 AM »

IRONGLOW. True. I remember that tiller the killer had bragged about killing over 30,000 babies. Hmmmmm, I wonder where he is now?

? POWDERMAN.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #103 on:** December 21, 2010, 06:27:57 AM »

You guys are right, it is happening right now with abortion. If everyone in America could see the film "Silent Scream" I think the majority would want to shut down abortion clinics, especially late term. Even in the "liberals European model" the Europeans don't have abortions after 5 months, because the baby has an 85% chance of survival outside the womb after 5 months. At the very least this moral issue should have been left up the then individual states by the Supreme Court.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #104 on:** December 21, 2010, 08:16:12 AM »

I don't know about the numbers, we may never know the count. Germany was not the only country to take an extermination of numbers stance. It has happened with alot of peoples in many different locations. Does a lesser number exhonerate any one nations past? Abortions are used all to frequently as a means of birth control,instead of as medical or socio neccessity as in rape, incest,or mothers health.If a street thug kills a pregnant women, he can be charged with two counts of murder/manslaughter, why can a woman take a life and avoid a hearing? If the gov't makes no laws against are they not sponsering? Looks like its still going on to me. YMMV

billy_56081 · « **Reply #105 on:** December 21, 2010, 01:16:03 PM »

Calm down TM's, you guys are kinda going off the deep end. Get back in charicter, we need you at the top of your game for the BBQ. Take ten deep breaths, exhaling each slowley.

powderman · « **Reply #106 on:** December 21, 2010, 01:39:46 PM »

BILLY. That last drivel came from tm #1, tm #2 is obvious to me, but I still think theres a tm #3. Either that or the 3 rd is simply #1, or #2, off their meds, or taking a bit too much of them. I'll pm ya and tell ya how to tell them apart. POWDERMAN.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #107 on:** December 21, 2010, 02:46:39 PM »

I can just see old TM#2 sitting on TM#1's knee like Achmed the dead terrorist. But in insted of "I keellll youuu" it will be "the Jews did it".

-Shaggy- · « **Reply #108 on:** December 21, 2010, 03:03:39 PM »

Quote from: TM7 on December 21, 2010, 03:28:25 AM

Shaggy.

..Author Militovsky and the NYTimes are agenda driven and into the DNA of the Holocaust Industry and avoid discussion of the 55-60 million others holocausted in this era...for obvious reasons....singular ownership of the holocaust at all costs. The Int'l Red Cross produced their documents and official estimation of total jewish war deaths of 272,000 in 1979,,later in 1985 revised to 290,000...Elizabeth Dole was key in releasing this information. I will post these documents shortly. If you can please produce the documents that the NYTimes claim they have basically calling the Red Cross liers...please produce them if possible.

..TM7
.

Yes, the Red Cross said in 1979 that only 272,000 died in the camps, but in 1996 they gave 25,000 pages of their World War II records to the Holocaust Museum and admitted they knew about the Holocaust from the start and did little to stop it or inform the world what was happening, basically a lie by omission ; they didn't really lie about what they knew, they just didn't tell the truth. I doubt Elizabeth Dole had much to do with the revision of the numbers in 1985 seeing as how she was Secretary of Transportation at the time. She joined the Red Cross in 1991 and was in charge when they finally admitted what they knew in 1996, however.

If you don't like the New York Times, perhaps you will like the Red Cross itself better..

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/6ayg86.htm

Dialogue with the past: the ICRC and the Nazi death camps
05-11-2002 by François Bugnion
François Bugnion, the ICRC's Director for International Law and Cooperation within the Movement, reflects* on the organization's failure to react vigorously to the persecution of Jews by the Third Reich

"Still, there is no doubt that senior ICRC officials had become aware of the genocide by the summer of 1942. When questioned by United States Consul Paul Squire on 7 November 1942, Carl Burckhardt, a distinguished member of the Committee, confirmed the existence of an order issued by Hitler intended to make the Reich " Judenfrei " or " free of Jews " , in the terminology of Hitler's Germany. Burckhardt added that since there was no place where they could be resettled, this could only mean one thing."

"These actions are not negligible, since every life saved is priceless, but they cannot obscure the fact that, overall, the ICRC's efforts were a failure.

That they amounted to failure is undeniable, since the principles guiding the ICRC's work had never been so outrageously flouted. Millions of men, women and children died after a terrible ordeal without the ICRC being able to do anything to save them."

"finally, to establish the historical facts of the case, the ICRC invited Jean-Claude Favez to carry out an independent investigation of its activities on behalf of the victims of Nazi persecution, and gave him unfettered access to its archives relating to this period; out of concern for transparency, the ICRC also decided to give all other historians access to its archives dating back more than 50 years; having gone over the conclusions of Fave z's work, the ICRC acknowledged its past failings and expressed its regrets in this regard."

The Red Cross knew what was happening and lied about it for 50 years.

blind ear · « **Reply #109 on:** December 22, 2010, 01:07:03 AM »

Hey guys, try to use words that I don't have to look up in the dictionary. It's hard enogh to follow this stuff as is, without having to revert to the dictionary. ear

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #110 on:** December 22, 2010, 02:34:35 AM »

Not only were Jews exterminated by Nazi's, also Poles, Russians, Ukranes, etc. The Nazi's wanted to exterminate all Slavic peoples, Jews, and people of color and repopulate Eurasia with blond haired, blue eyed Germans. From what I've read, 6 millon Jews, 12 million Poles, and 20 million Russians were killed. Russian soldiers were worked to death as slaves as well as healthy Poles and Jews. A black American group first liberated one of the extermination camps and couldn't believe what they saw. One though it crazy that whites were killing whites. He said it made the stuff they went through in America tame.

ironglow · « **Reply #111 on:** December 22, 2010, 05:08:23 AM »

TM asks;
" ...All to provoke and ensure an unholy agenda. This is the meaning of apostate and reprobate. For those that elected to be God's chosen.. How many more thousands of years do we have to wait for Jewery to accept the/their Messiah...How many more need to be burnt offerings ?

Well TM;
Your lead statement is surely to be questioned..as to just WHO has the "unholy agenda"..

As far as those elected to be God's chosen, we need not wait too many more thousands of years...there is a great movement underway which is bringing many to accept the true Messiah;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

Sorry; I see no real movement to recognize the REAL Messiah springing up within the ranks of Islam ! ...And do they not consider themselves to be Allah's chosen ?
As far as human burnt offerings, that was never a Hebrew practice..although the Arabic tribes surrounding them did resort to sending their children to be burnt in the hands of Molech (Lev 20)
The only obvious human burnt offerings in this century, were some civilian contract workers, burnt and hung on a bridge in Baghdad. Obviously a burnt offering to the murderers god...molech, baal or old smutty-face himself..
Yes, those killers better start getting used to the heat !

powderman · « **Reply #112 on:** December 22, 2010, 05:23:10 AM »

Quote

anti-semitism prevailed in Germany especially after Int'l jewry declared war on germany in 1933

tm #1. HEH, I just knew it was the Jews fault, shame on them declaring war against Germany. Thanks, my morning laugher. Funny part is that you actually believe this garbage. POWDERMAN.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #113 on:** December 22, 2010, 09:20:52 AM »

The Nazi's stirred up anti-semitism and anti-communist before 1933. That is one reason why Hitler was imprisoned, as the early Nazis were violent. Later once they ran for office in the German parliment and won majority in 1933 and elected Hitler as their Chancelor. Germany had been going through a depression since 1923 trying to pay back the Allied debt and were looking for someone to blame.

ironglow · « **Reply #114 on:** December 22, 2010, 12:08:05 PM »

TM says;
  Holocaust revisionism (what believer accomplices call dening) is not so much a study of kill number,,,but more the detailed study of how one Group seizes power over other dumbed down groups, thru guilt and shame and suspension of logic, and keeps this power. I persume in very short time in this country we will not be permitted to have these discussions but only be subjected to the musings of IG and the PMan's of the world...that will indeed be one of the saddest days in America's history.

   Sheesh TM...
   You talk as if somehow PM and I are about to curtail your first amendment rights ! I'll give you a clue; neither one of us have that power...

  Clearly, you have had as much opportunity as any of us to post here. The only way we could begin to get "one up" on you is by sticking with truth and facts..truth and facts the various conspiracy theorists lack. ...Can't help that !

   You speak of the "Pauline church"...give you a clue..there "ain't no sech animal"..there is only the church which Jesus (God) himself established.. Yes, some groups or branches may stray from the hard truth and some claim the title church without having the right...but Jesus established HIS Church.
   Anything else must be a brotherhood, gang, coven, mosque or whatever..

BTW: Your speech seems to have little regard for things "Pauline"..what do you have against Paul ?

billy_56081 · « **Reply #115 on:** December 22, 2010, 12:13:06 PM »

TM's one question why do you hate the Jews so much? (please just answer the question, as we all know that it is true) I and many others here would be interested in understanding how someone can hate so blindly.

Also I really need to know if TM#2 sits on your knee in your act.

And no TM's I am not trying to curtail your 1rst amendment rights, just pointing out your lies.

ironglow · « **Reply #116 on:** December 22, 2010, 02:54:11 PM »

TM;
I don't agree with somebody being arrested because they speak out about the holocaust either pro or con. I believe in "free speech", free speech will help to sort things out. Canada had a revision of their constitution some years ago, wherein they opted for the term "fair speech" instead of free speech. That was a huge mistake and a grave assault upon freedom; however, that's not my country..not mine to choose.
We all are aware that the so-called "fairness doctrine" for radio and TV , plus the gibberish passing for "net neutrality" of the internet are both liberal/progressive initiatives..and I don't have a liberal bone, muscle, nail or hair in my body.

I truly enjoy the "marketplace of ideas" idea...but it is always the radical left that is attempting to close the door of the market..in the classroom (our origins), in the public square(don't speak of God or Jesus), and so many, many ways in political correctness.
Fact is, REAL CENSORSHIP is a natural born puppy of the left...and I AM NOT of the left !

powderman · « **Reply #117 on:** December 22, 2010, 03:36:13 PM »

Quote

I truly enjoy the "marketplace of ideas" idea...but it is always the radical left that is attempting to close the door of the market..in the classroom (our origins), in the public square(don't speak of God or Jesus), and so many, many ways in political correctness.
Fact is, REAL CENSORSHIP is a natural born puppy of the left...and I AM NOT of the left !

IG, well said. POWDERMAN.

-Shaggy- · « **Reply #118 on:** December 25, 2010, 07:38:07 AM »

Well, Turtlehead, now we are making progress. I see we are obviously not reading the same articles.

Quote from: TM7 on December 22, 2010, 11:47:56 AM

Crusty...further research into the ICRC piece you posted indicates simply that Francois Bugnion was announcing the fact that the Red Cross was turning over files to Jean Claude Favez, a holocaust researcher, to investigate whether the Red Cross did cover up knowledge of the holocaust...but not so much to research or to verify the 6 million figure...{ No,he was not not announcing that the Red Cross was turning over files in 2002 to Favez to research for a book that was published in 1988. He was delivering a speech acknowledging the fact that during WW II the Red Cross made no attempt to record the number of deaths in the concentration camps and no attempt to inform the world what was happening there. He only mentioned Favez at the end of the speech as part of the fact that they had much later released the meager documentation they had done to historians.}

Favez did indeed write a book stating there was some coverup because announcing that there was atrocites would have precluded them from further watching what was going on or to render assistance...certainly what Favez found must have found it's way to the anglos and allies during WW2; AND had it been huge would have warranted bombing runs on these camps supply routes most certainly...which did not happen. { "Some coverup" Ya think? The rest is just speculation on your part as to what did and would have happened.}

Best I can tell the Red Cross death figures, hold and Favez did not revize estimates upward. {How could he, even if that was his intent in writing the book, which it wasn't. The Red Cross has admitted their documentation was intentionally ignoring reality, so how could any "official" death count be anywhere close to the truth.}

The comment of Francois Bugnion in the body of your Times article...referring to the 4 or 6 million holocausted is merely reciting the usual unexamined and unverified media estimates still circulating around.. { Francois Bugnion is not mentioned in the New York Times article, nor is 4 to 6 million. Merely "millions". The man who mentioned the millions who died was just trying to be realistic.} That's about it.

...TM7
.

-Shaggy- · « **Reply #119 on:** December 26, 2010, 08:50:57 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on December 26, 2010, 05:23:57 AM

Shaggy...I'm going to take a couple of minutes to address you concerns and to hopefully clear up a few things for a few folks...likely the majority of people will remain grafted to their popular views.

I don't think the ICRC is admitting to any 'conspiracy' with nazi's to coverup murders of jews and others, but they have been in apologetic mode for not having done more to stop a dreadful situation.
{In part, that is exactly what they have admitted.}

Indeed Favez book finally made it into English in 1989, but from the Francois Bugnion's apologetic ICRC press release, dated 05-11-2002...the newly released documents are to scrutinized by none other than holocaust researcher Favez,,,see here from your article:

"finally, to establish the historical facts of the case, the ICRC invited Jean-Claude Favez to carry out an independent investigation of its activities on behalf of the victims of Nazi persecution, and gave him unfettered access to its archives relating to this period; out of concern for transparency, the ICRC also decided to give all other historians access to its archives dating back more than 50 years; having gone over the conclusions of Favez's work, the ICRC acknowledged its past failings and expressed its regrets in this regard."
* Address delivered at the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Museum on 4 November 2002, at a round table organized for an exhibition entitled Mémoire des Camps (original French).

This means Favez is working on a new book on behalf of the int'l holocaust museum; and as right now I don't know if that book has been released in English.

{No, Francois Bugnion is stating the failures during WW II by the Red Cross and giving examples of what they have done to make up for their inaction at that time....

"What lessons did the ICRC draw from this failure?

Several can be mentioned:

from a legal point of view, the work that led to the adoption of the Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war;

from an ethical point of view, the adoption of the declaration of the Fundamental Principles of the Red Cross and Red Crescent, building on the distinguished work of Max Huber and the late Jean Pictet, in order to prevent any more abuses such as those that occurred within the Movement after Hitler rose to power in 1933;

on a political level, the ICRC's relationship with Switzerland was redesigned to ensure its independence;

with a view to keeping memories alive, the ICRC accepted, in 1955, to take over the direction of the International Tracing Service where records from concentration camps are maintained;

finally, to establish the historical facts of the case, the ICRC invited Jean-Claude Favez to carry out an independent investigation of its activities on behalf of the victims of Nazi persecution, and gave him unfettered access to its archives relating to this period; out of concern for transparency, the ICRC also decided to give all other historians access to its archives dating back more than 50 years; having gone over the conclusions of Fave z's work, the ICRC acknowledged its past failings and expressed its regrets in this regard."

He is alluding to the examination of Red Cross documents viewed by Favez beginning in 1981, culminating in the release of his book in 1988, and the subsuquent release of the same documents to other researchers in 1996. There is no mention of any newly released documents or a new book by Favez beginning in 2002.}

{Another Red Cross statement from 2007...

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/holocaust-position-27042006.htm

The Nazi genocide and other persecutions
25-10-2007 Statement
Document adopted by the ICRC Assembly on 27 April 2006

"This failure is also that of the Red Cross as a whole, but it weighs most heavily on the ICRC given the organization's specific mission and its position within the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. Millions of men, women and children – mainly Jews, but also Gypsies, the handicapped and all those whom the regime considered as opponents or resistance fighters – were exterminated in cold blood, in atrocious conditions, without the ICRC being able to do anything to protect them. Never had the organization's guiding principles been so outrageously flouted, in a total perversion of moral values that resulted in the industrialization of death. For the survivors and the families of the victims, the wounds inflicted by these events remain open to this day. "

" In the words of Jean-Claude Favez, who made the most thorough independent study of the ICRC's efforts to help the victims of Nazi persecution and who, to that end, was granted unlimited access to the ICRC's archives, the organization "did not take the supreme risk of throwing the full weight of its moral authority into the scales on behalf of these particular victims." "

" With this in mind, the ICRC today regrets its past errors and omissions. This failure will remain engraved in the organization's memory, as will the brave acts undertaken by many of its delegates at the time. " }

{Doesn't sound like the Red Cross is still staying with their 270,000 "guesstimate". Perhaps you should contact them and ask for a current statement of how many died in the camps.}

{The remainder of your post is merely a statement of your personal agenda, and as such I won't bother commenting. You are welcome to your own opinions.}

And of course, your NYTimes article is dated 12-19-1995 which earlier announced release of a group of ICRC files....obviously trying to distribute guilt to the ICRC this time alluding to Favez 1988 book. Every gentile is guilty according NYTimes author, Irvin Molotsky. So you posted articles separated by 6 years. The NYTimes article is primarily written to announce that holocaust museum researchers are now indicting the ICRC on a coverup of atrocities and that they aim to prove this...a theme of Favez's earlier books Une Mission Impossible and Das International Rote Kreuz. In the NYT article we have an ICRC archivist in apologetic mode: "''The International Committee of the Red Cross has shared responsibility for the silence of the world community,'' Georges Willemin, the organization's archivist, said today. ''Could we have gone further? Could we have done more? I don't know."

Now what is the purpose of putting the otherwise stellar ICRC under the microscope?? THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS;:::... RED CROSS DOCUMENTS INDICATE THAT APPROX ONLY 300,000 PERSONS WERE HOLCAUTSED, TERMINATED, OR DIED OF STARVATION AND TYPHUS....NOT THE 6 MILLION KABALIST'S FIGURE;;; and THAT AMONG THEM WERE 30% NON-JEWS, and there were many causes of death aside from atrocites. FURTHER STUDY OF THEIR WW2 RECORDS SHOWS THAT IN VIOLATION OF 1929 GENEVA RULES... POST WW2 ARMISTICE, 8 MILLION GERMANS WERE LITTLE MORE THAN MURDERED AND COUNTLESS WHITE RUSSIANS AGAIN LAID WASTE IN RED RUSSIA.. THUS...a necessity to manitain the storyline requires the usual imbroglio and anti-semetizm charges to be utilized to taint the ICRC and tarnish it's reputation in spite of the apologetic mode of its spokesman.

As I said I don't much care about the actual number of jews murdered in the holocaust, even though studying the facts of this event is verboten...>for some reason we are only allowed to accept the storyline and feel immense guilt without study...methinks something is rotten in Denmark...I am more concerned with their deaths AND all others murdered, victimized, incinerated in the entire ww2 saga; about 55 million all totaled....that is where the true lessons for humanity lie...not just for justifications of anti-semetic charges or zionist atrocites, or other psychic garbage, or for future burnt offerings. I also reject substitution of this event for THE defining event in man's history...namely the Crucifixion of Christ...and that is exactly what the zionist and the judeao-christians are attempting to do.

Too summarize; the holocaust for dummies....from internet services:

1. In 1939, there were officially nearly 15,700,000 Jews in the world.(1) After the Second World War, that number had risen to over 18,000,000 Jews.(2) What this means is that of the 15,700,000 original Jews on the planet, 6,000,000 were allegedly gassed, leaving only some 9,000,000-plus Jews on Earth. However, the world Jewish population somehow rebounded - and doubled - to over 18,000,000 in less than nine years-an astronomical feat.

2. From the beginning, there was always the 'SIX MILLION' of which 4,000,000 were allegedly gassed at Auschwitz. Then, in 1990, it was discovered that only 1.5 million were supposedly gassed at Auschwitz, a difference of 2.5 million less. Yet, the sacred Six Million figure remained untouched and unchallenged, even though no instant replacement for the 2.5 million was ever found.

3. During this time frame, the Director of the Auschwitz State Museum, Dr. Franciszek Piper, announced that the so-called gas chamber there had been fabricated by the Soviets AFTER the war (as a propaganda device to keep the world focused on the evils of Nazi Germany while the Bolshevik communists continued to consume as much of Europe as they could). Dr. Piper's statement is on videotape.

4. But there's more. The International Red Cross, formally and officially reported that less than 300,000 internees of all nationalities in the German camps died of all causes, including old age.(3) And of these, barely more than half were Jews. Most of these died in several severe typhoid epidemics caused by wartime conditions, which claimed many lives throughout Germany - including those of doctors, nurses and camp administrative personnel.

5. Even these deaths were too much for the German authorities. On December 8, 1942, Heinrich Himmler, chief commandant of all detention facilities, issued an order stating categorically: "The death rate in the camps must be reduced at all costs."

6. In all of German-occupied Europe there were 2.4 million Jews. After the war, 3.8 million Jews claimed "survivor" benefits from the German government.

7. It was a miracle. According to The New York Times of Sunday, January 4, 1987, celebrated survivor Elie Wiesel recalled "the day the Soviets arrived at Auschwitz." However, in a speech to the National Press Club in Washington D.C., reported by the Jewish Telegraph Agency on April 11, 1983, he had a different recollection. (4) He noted that he was "one of the survivors liberated at Dachau by the U.S. Army" on April 15, 1945-and thus became the only prisoner of war to hold the distinction of being liberated from two different camps in World War II.

8. Not to be outdone by The Wiesel, famous "Nazi-hunter" Simon Wiesenthal died serenely at age 96, knowing that, according to BBC News, he had personally survived no fewer than 12 Nazi "death camps."

9. In 1948, a story appeared about a hapless Jewish girl who was done in by the Nazis. It was written with a ballpoint pen, something that did not appear on the market until after the war. It was called "The Diary of Anne Frank." This document remains highly controversial to this day.

10. So, where did this 'SIX MILLION' figure come from? For that, we must go back to one Ilya Ehrenburg (5), chief Soviet propagandist during the Second World War who later died in Israel. It was Ehrenberg who first coined the mystic number on Dec. 22, 1944 long before tens of thousands of Jewish internees in German camps, given the choice of staying to be 'liberated" by the Communists or fleeing West with their German captors, did not hesitate to choose the latter option. There is an incrediblely long history of using this 6 million number long before officially becoming a ww2 number of repute.

You are encouraged to do you own research on these and scores of other questions relating to World War 2 and the German concentration labor camps.

Notes

1- The American Jewish Committee cites a figure of 15,688,259.

2- The Jewish-owned New York Times for Feb. 22, 1948, uses a figure of 18,700,000.

3- When the Red Cross interviewed thousands of freed camp inmates at the end of the war, asking whether they had witnessed alleged "gassings," the response was universally negative. According to IRC document #9925, June, 1946: "The detainees themselves have not spoken of them."

4- In his book Legend of Our Time, New York, 1982, The Weasel explained: "Things are not that simple, Rebbe. Some events do take place but are not true; others are-although they never occurred."

5-The monstrous lies of this Jewish psychopath succeeded in creating a climate of rabid, anti-German hate which led to the death of millions. Here is a typical example of the genocidal daily fare served up to Soviet troops, taken from an Oct. 1944 leaflet to the Red Army: "Kill! Nothing in Germany is guiltless, neither the living nor the yet unborn. Follow the words of Comrade Stalin and crush the fascist beast in its lair. Break the racial pride of the German woman. Take her as your legitimate booty. Kill, you brave soldiers of the glorious Soviet army!" This was actually in agreement with the Baruch and Morgenthau Plan as administrated by Eisenhower immediately post war. Patton spoke freely on these criminal actions.

This clearly illustrates the importance of knowing the history of this topic, despite the musings of the anti-gentiles, as the record apparently contains the key to understanding much of what continues to plague the world today. Had Obama, and predecessors, and alert Americans (or the world) been even remotely aware of these numbers, (and the recent changes in their reality): He might have avoided being the fool he obvioulsy is and was, on his recent trip to the Middle-East. This also lends perspective and context to the new 'hate laws' that Obmanation is advocating be applied to American citizens and to our individual right to explore the facts on this topic for ourselves. These are the same laws that IG et al, shaggy, crus

..TM7
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