Author Topic: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?  (Read 3504 times)

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Offline kombi1976

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I've often commented that the difference between the 22WMR and the 17HMR was load and projectile development.
With new technology invested in the 22WMR it would become a superb round, certainly much better than it currently is.
And much the same applies to the humble 22lr.
Why is it that ammo never seems to be pointed or even semi-pointed?
Why do we not see the polymer tips on on hi-velocity stuff like Winchester Powerpoints?
Are there legitimate reasons for keeping 22lr bullets the shape of a vitamin capsule?
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline DCT

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 09:10:24 AM »
I bought one of those tools that you use to change the nose of the bullet. It not only changes the shape of the nose of the bullet, but changes the size of the bullet to .224. I have seen some improvement in accuracy in some guns and no difference in others. One of the shapes is like a wadcutter, flat, and puts nice round holes in paper. It also hits small game like a hammer.

Offline no guns here

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 09:24:36 AM »
My guess is the preponderance of .22lr's with tubular magazines.  Of course with rim fire cartridges, a pointed bullet shouldn't provide for issues like in a center fire tubular magazine.  Don't know, unless it's really just a feed issue.  Sort of like round ball feeds through most auto pistols like it was greased and on rails.


I've wondered how those tools for the .22 bullets work...  It always seemed to me that the flat point would be beneficial for hunting.  May have to try one some day.

NGH
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Offline kombi1976

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2010, 12:28:53 PM »
I can see your logic but then why have they given the 17HMR polymer tipped frangible bullets?
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline Keith L

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2010, 03:26:28 PM »
17 HMR are, to the best of my knowledge, are box magazine or single shot. 

You can get some poly tipped ,22 mag ammo I think, and some really good jacketed bullets these days.
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Offline dieselman

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2010, 03:57:38 PM »
In my 22 Hornet I load the 35gr v-max bullets and I love them, I wish they would load them in the 22lr. If the plastic tip is to much for tube fed then go to the rubber tips like they have for the centerfires now. I'm sure the cost would go up cause the copper jacket would drive up the cost up I'm sure.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 04:37:10 PM »
  The polymer tips should not make a difference in tube fed rifles, since they are rimfire. Hornady makes a very nice .22 mag round and I hear they are inclined more toward accuracy than most conventional  .22 mag bullets. I doubt they will challenge the .17 HMR for accuracy though. Others also use the polymer tipped bullet.

    
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Offline Doe

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 10:16:28 AM »
Supply and demand  ??? Not in high demand. you can pop a squrrils head with a blunt nose 22lr at 100 yards still and the new 17 are made for past 100 yards and varments.

Offline kombi1976

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2010, 12:22:18 PM »
Ironglow, the aim of a pointy tip is not to challenge the 17HMR but to optimise the 22lr.
The 17 Mach II was invented to compete with 22lr but the sheer bulk of 22lr users made it stillborn.
Doe, How many amazing 22lr rifles are out there and how many are made in 22lr?
No one bats an eyelid at projectile development for 30 cal despite the fact any number of bullet designs up to 50 yrs old will comfortably knock down a moose or elk.
Why isn't the same throughtful attitude extended to the world's most popular cartridge?
And it is the most popular cartridge, all the more reason to invest in it.
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline spruce

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2010, 02:35:07 PM »
Kombi - I think it may just be corporate mindset as much as anything.  I mean "if we're already selling millions of them every year why invest time and money to try and improve them"!

That would be my guess regarding the .22LR.  Regarding the .22 Mag, the thinking may be they wouldn't sell enough more of the improved version to offset the R&D and production costs in a reasonable length of time.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2010, 11:37:19 PM »
 The ammo companies must have thought about it. You've got a ton of guys buying >$1000 22 rifles trying to get the best accuracy out of them so I'd assume there would be a significant market.

 You'd think they would have come up with something better than the current century old shape by now. Maybe they figure a pointed, soft lead bullet so small would be too easily damaged during production or handling by the consumer, even if it did have a polymer tip.

 If they made a jacketed 22lr, they might have to come with a warning not to use them in antique rifles with soft steel barrels.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline kombi1976

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2010, 04:06:51 AM »
I think jacketted 22lr is bad news.
The poly tip is just one way of keeping that tip pointy.
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline S.S.

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2010, 06:41:22 AM »
Imagine Jennifer Anniston wanting Plastic surgury? The question I
would have is why try to improve such a perfect shape?
Same with the .22 LR.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2010, 07:35:53 AM »
The velocity and useful range of the 22 lr doesn't make BC much of factor in ovewrall performance of the ammunition.
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Offline 351 power

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2010, 02:06:21 PM »
big part of .22's draw is cost. polymer tips would raise the cost. lots of times i read that pointed centerfire bullets have no advantage over rn ones inside 100 yds. since .22 lr rounds are mostly meant for 50 yds or less what would be the point in a point? sell stuff i suppose
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2010, 07:09:39 PM »
  .22 LR usually runs a speed between 1050 and 1280 fps. It is likely that a sharp polymer tip may not help the situation at all. accuracy-wise, the manufacturers such as Lapua, RWS & Eley, who really take great pains to make competitive rounds, don't seem inclined to try a spitzer shape, even though they get premium prices.
       HM2 with their polymer tips are very accurate..but they are hitting 2100 fps and the .22 mags with polymer tips are hitting 2200 fps plus..looks almost like the breaking point is somewhere around 2100..since the mags aren't available in 40 gr loads of around 2000 fps.
   I don't believe cost is the consideration, since the HM2 is about $5-$6 per @50..about in line with Velociters and Stingers and less than top target ammo.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 05:32:14 AM »
Quite simple really. Putting sharp plastic tips on them would be useless. Inside of about 200-250 yards the nose shape of a bullet has very little effect on trajectory or velocity. Rimfires aren't meant for anywhere near that distance so the blunt nose on them you so bemoan has no negative effect on performance and those who know that don't waste time and add to the cost of them for no performance increase.


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Offline ironglow

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 07:36:08 AM »
  Makes perfect sense..GB !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline kombi1976

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2010, 02:34:02 PM »
Quite simple really. Putting sharp plastic tips on them would be useless. Inside of about 200-250 yards the nose shape of a bullet has very little effect on trajectory or velocity. Rimfires aren't meant for anywhere near that distance so the blunt nose on them you so bemoan has no negative effect on performance and those who know that don't waste time and add to the cost of them for no performance increase.
Sorry to bemoan and waste your time.  ::)
So what you're saying is nothing can be done to improve the current performance of 22lr?
That was after all the intention of this post.
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline S.S.

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2010, 04:12:10 PM »
I have to ask, "what is wrong with the performance"?
as long as the little round is not asked to do something
unreasonable, I see no need for improvement...
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
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Offline kombi1976

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2010, 04:49:55 PM »
Ok, fine, get your point, but everyone said the same about 30-30 and here we have LEVERevolution ammo.
I just reckon there has to be something that doesn't cost much extra that gives the 22lr a modern edge.
Believe it or not there are a wide range of prices for 22lr ammo.
Of course you won't use this for target or plinking but surely there's a place for pointy high velocity ammo.
It works for 17HMR & in good weather the 17 is good for 150yds.
That's less than your 200-250yds, GB, and yet the designers felt it was justified.
Were they wasting their time?
Ok, so the 17HMR is around 2500fps but up over the sound barrier I'd say it all helps.
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline torpedoman

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2010, 05:35:38 PM »
 The polymer tips should not make a difference in tube fed rifles, since they are rimfire. Hornady makes a very nice .22 mag round and I hear they are inclined more toward accuracy than most conventional  .22 mag bullets. I doubt they will challenge the .17 HMR for accuracy though. Others also use the polymer tipped bullet.

    
The polymer tip WILL NOT work in tube fed mags. they slide off and jam up. Yea I tried it in an old Mossberg i was thinking of rebarreling to 17mach 2 had to use box mag gun. They have redone the 22mag loads and use lighter polymer tip bullets and they equal or surpass the 17hmr
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2010, 05:36:28 PM »
 The polymer tips should not make a difference in tube fed rifles, since they are rimfire. Hornady makes a very nice .22 mag round and I hear they are inclined more toward accuracy than most conventional  .22 mag bullets. I doubt they will challenge the .17 HMR for accuracy though. Others also use the polymer tipped bullet.

    
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 03:12:56 AM »
Quote
So what you're saying is nothing can be done to improve the current performance of 22lr?
That was after all the intention of this post.

No that's not exactly what I'm saying but I will say I see no need as there is a .22LR round now for about every possible use I can see for it. You have standard velocity to high velocity and hyper velocity that's pushing hard on the heels of the .22 Magnum velocity wise. In the .22 Magnum you have the original 40 grain bullets and the lighter ones moving out over 2000 fps.

I just don't see any holes in the coverage.

Plastic tips on the rimfire rounds is a marketing gimmick and nothing more same as it is for the .30-30 and .35 Remington. If they used the same powder technology without the soft plastic tips performance would be the same.

Study ballistics tables for round nose, sptizer and plastic tip bullets from any bullet maker offering all three types in the same bullet weight for say 7mm or .308 since that's where the best bullet selections are. If you do you'll see that short of 200-250 yards the nose shape makes no appreciable difference.

I dunno about you but I'm not willing to pay another buck fifty a box for .22LR ammo just to get a plastic tip when they already have all the various velocity ranges that the pressure levels the round works at are covered now.

Hey if it makes you happy to wish for such do so just don't expect a market to develop for it or manufacturers to provide it for you.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline kombi1976

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 03:57:49 AM »
GB, I was with you until the veiled insult at the end.
There's been some sort of misconception that I believe plastic tips are the answer.
I don't necessarily.
Now I guess I'm left with the answer I feel sure is untrue at least in some way and that is that nothing can be done to improve 22lr as it currently is.
Thanks for the guidance......I think? ???
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline TLARbb

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 04:13:41 AM »
My thoughts on this is that it would be money better spent by ammo companies to improve consistency of their rounds so they could offer a more consistently accurate bullet at lower cost.  One of the difficulties with putting high BC bullets in a .22lr is that the bullet itself has to upset when fired to seal the bore.  You need a jacketed or harder copper plated bullet to make the higher BC bullets work properly.  So, the .22LR is inherently limited to pretty much what it is today.  So what, it is still as great as it ever was.  If you need more, then the 17s and the .22WMR and the small centerfires are there.  The .22 LR has a spot - a big one and I, for one, don't see any need to change it (and thus make it more expensive).

EJ

Offline kombi1976

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 04:31:49 AM »
Thanks for your concise reply, TLARbb.
It at least gives me more insight into the problems of doing what I proposed.
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline IOWA DON

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 05:11:07 AM »
Pointed projectiles lose less velocity at supersonic velocities but round nose projectiles lose less velocity at subsonic velocities. About 30 years ago Beeman, a large air rifle business started selling pointed air rifle pellets. They advertised them as having a better ballistic coeficient than the round-nose ones normally used for hunting. About then a guy did a very complete test where he measured velocities at the muzzle and at around 30 yards with about all the availible flat-nosed, round-nosed and pointed pellets in both .177 and .22 caliber. The results indicated the pointed pellets did not maintain velocity as well as the round-nosed pellets at the subsonic velocities of an air rifle. Yes, high-speed .22 rimfire ammunition starts out above the speed of sound, but it doesn't stay supersonic for a long. Also, a blunt nosed does more damage to an animal on impact. I tried some of those pointed air rifle pellets and they did not have the same effect on birds and rabbits as either the round-nosed or flat-nosed pellets. Big bore pistol shooters can probably give a lot more information on the extra killing power of bullets with a large blunt nose.

Offline S.S.

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 08:56:36 AM »
Have you tried the Yellow Jacket, Viper or Spitfire?
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Blunt 22lr pills.....why is it they still live in the BC stone age?
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 09:35:34 AM »
The comment sure wasn't intended as an insult veiled or otherwise just a shot of reality.

I doubt there is a round out there on which more R&D money has been spent than the lowly .22LR. It is available in more guises than any round in existence and in such a variety that other than adding a plastic tip I honestly don't know what more they can do.

Reality is a plastic tip would likely add at least three cents per round and add nothing to the performance. We have them with bullets weighting from around 30 grains to 40 grains in solid, HP and flat nose (SGB) styles both plated and unplated moving out from a bit over 1000 fps to darn near 1800 fps.

I'm not putting you down I just don't see a realistic nitch that's not already filled.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!