Lighter rifle loads to reduce recoil

[BRL]

I made the below reply to different post in another section here. It reminded me that this is something I'd been pondering for a while so I thought I would post it here.

Thanks!!
 

"Which is more of a factor for reduced recoil...velocity or bullet weight? I know they both play roles but 125gr at 3,000 doesn't sound like it would be that much lighter in recoil compared to a factory 150 at say 2,700. I don't know.

Can it be as easy to say that a 20% reduction in bullet weight with a 20% increase in velocity yield the same recoil as the original load? As bullet weight drops how much would velocity be able to increase to keep the recoil the same? Or, the opposite...as weight increases, how much would velocity have to drop to keep recoil the same?

My goal has recently switched to reducing recoil in my hunting load so I can shoot more at the range and not have the loads deer taking capabilities suffer too much. I'm not sure if the original post was thinking along the same lines."

Thanks!! 

[Richard P]

Reducing the bullet weight goes a long way in reducing the recoil. A .223 (5.56) bullet (55gr) is launched at 3000fps or more.  A bullet from a 300WinMag is launched at about the same. Which would you rather shoot ?  Remember that powder is figured in the mass ejected.  Why not do both; reduce weight and go for lower velocity. Also, the weight of the gun is a factor.
   In an Encore .308 15'' barrel, dropping to a 125gr bullet and holding velocity to the area of 2100fps places it in the realm of a .30 Herrett or 7.62x39.  For most purposes and distances it remains effective.  If you need to shoot 400yds you will want another answer.

[trotterlg]

Just find the little bullet energy calculator and work the numbers all they different ways you can, with the same rifle, foot pounds of energy of the bullet will relate directly to the recoil.  There is the matter of the weight of the powder that is also ejected fromt eh bore but doesn't figure in with the bullet energy, but you can probably mostly ignore that.  Larry

[simplicity]

An easy formula for bullet energy velocity times velocity times bullet weight (in grains) divided by 450240 In other words V*V*W/450240

[shot1]

From experience of actual shooting. If the bullet weight goes up the recoil goes up. For instance my rem 700 308 win has much less felt recoil shooting a 125 gr Nosler ballistic tip at 3000 fps than it does shooting a 150 gr bullet 2800 fps. My 45-70 Sharps has much less felt recoil shooting a 405 gr bullet 1400 fps than it does shooting a 500 gr bullet 1100 fps.

[necchi]

"From experience of actual shooting. If the bullet weight goes up the recoil goes up."

Yup, that's how it feels for me. Bigger bullets thump more than smaller ones, even smaller ones going faster.

I'll throw another wrench in the mix;
 Is there a differeance between felt re-coil and perceived re-coil ? What part of the mind plays a factor.

 I did this with my boy years back with his ML when he became "worried" about recoil.    Long story short, he spent an entire season happily and accurately shooting 70grns of 2f, it wasn't until the following year when I moved him into a tighter patched ball combo and we reworked the load that he found out how much he was shooting.      

[PowPow]

Is there a differeance between felt re-coil and perceived re-coil ?

Like the difference between bench recoil and hunting recoil.

[dieselman]

Iit breaks down easy if you think about it, the heavier the bullet the more energy is needed to push it down the tube. In most guns (not all) heavier bullets will print a higher group say @ 100yds then lighter bullets, the muzzle wil rise more before the bullet clears the end of the muzzle. You will also have to fig in how tight the bullet fits in the barrel as well, but there again the more (or less) pressure is needed to move the bullet.

[shot1]

When hunting and shooting game I really don't feel any recoil and really am not aware of the sound of the weapon going off. The only time I was aware of the sound of a weapon going off was with a 25-06 that I picked up that had been mag-na-ported. Three shots at game without ear plugs and it found a new home. Another time was with my buddies 7mm STW that had a muzzle brake on it. He wanted me to shoot a deer with it so I could see how effective the muzzle brake was. He said you can see the bullet hit. I did not really think about the sound and forgot to get the ear plugs he used when hunting. I did not see the bullet hit the deer when I shot it because I almost dropped the rifle grabbing my ears. All I heard was beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee for about a week. One other time was when I was in collage. There was a pond on some land down from the school that had ducks on it. A big turtle was eating the little baby ducks. I saw the turtle one day while driving by. I stopped and got my Ruger security six 4" 357 mag that was loaded with Super Vel 110 gr HP's from under the seat and cranked the window down and slid back in the seat and rested on the window frame and shot AT the turtle, I missed it. Will never do that again.  Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[243dave]

Many times when loading a light load for a kid its just as important to reduce noise and muzzle-flash as it is bullet weight.  To me a model 7 (short barrel) chambered in a 243 makes a big roar with not much recoil but to a young or inexperienced hunter that roar must mean it kicks hard thus a flinch is developed.  In some cases its better to load a 100gr .243 bullet to 2600fps than a 85gr bullet to 2800-3200fps.  Perceived recoil is very real to a new shooter.   Dave

[BBF]

One more item to consider is the recoil velocity. A quick recoil is felt as a kick while a lower velocity even at the same ftlb is felt more like a push.

[BRL]

Good point. I've heard some talk about that. What gives the push and which gives the kick? I assume this has something to with powder burn, bullet weight?

[BBF]

my uneducated guess would be the velocity of the bullet and the amount/speed of gas escaping the muzzle.

[Larry L]

Kindly note, I don't profess to know more about anything than anybody but I read a lot. In one of the American Riflemen mags it discusses the new Super Performance ammo that Hodgdon has out. It yields more velocity and less recoil with equal or heavier bullet weights. I've always thought that it was simple physics- whatever the action you have a similar reaction. Well if you agree with that, yer as wrong as I was....apparently. They claim that up to something like 50% of all recoil occurs AFTER the bullet leaves the barrel. Yeah, you can read that again but that's what they claimed. The guy that has worked up these new performance powders claims that the jetting action of the hot expanding gases leaving the barrel causes a significant amount of the recoil. Now in my own mind I've always thought that IMR4831 was a shoulder breaker in cases 3006 and larger. I can see where that might just support their claim. I've also tried different loads in rifles using a very quick but bulky powder like SR4759 against the recoil effects of a similar load velocity wise using a  slow powder. The SR4759 wins by a lot in reduced recoil even though bullet speeds/weights are near identical. Think I'm wrong, try a load of SR4759 in a 45-70 versus a load of IMR3031 or Varget. You'll be buying SR4759 by the truckload if you shoot a lot. Now you got something else to ponder.

[PowPow]

SR-4759 is what I use in my 30-06 for reduced load 125 gr bullets to mimic the velocity/tragectory/POI of a 180 gr bullet with a big boy load of 4350. Kicks like a 30-30.

[BBF]

Larry L
Do you use as much SR 4759 in that load as you would 3031 or do you duplicate the velocity only.

[Larry L]

I duplicate velocities with it although  depending on the cartridge, you may not necessarily get max velocities obtainable with much slower powders. SR4759 is very bulky. I use 19.0 grs of it in a 3006 with a 147FMJ for plinkers, although it will hunt, and recoil is like a 222 with loading density at about 75% of case capacity. I'm not sure you can get a max load of SR4759 in a 3006 case. The burn rate is slower than 296 or H110 but faster than AA1680 or any of the 4227 powders. It's incredibly clean burning too. If you have kids that want to shoot the "big" guns, this is the powder. I was teaching the local Boy Scouts about loading and gun safety and this is what I had the kids load in their ammo. They loved shooting it thru the 03A3s.

[tacotime]

Probably can't ignore the burn rate of the various powders used, and the design geometry of the rifle stocks.  I hear a lot of complaints about the kick of 45-70 in a Ruger #3 because of the funky stock design, while in some others, like an old H&R Shikari, I didn't even need a pad for the factory 405.