don't ask don't tell

[teamnelson]

Given the UCMJ still lists the practice of homosexuality as a crime ... well I could list a lot of second and third order effects of this ill conceived piece of lame duck legislation. This ain't over.

Why do folks feel the military is the best place to force social experiments that mainstream society hasn't embraced? I thought we were a reflection of society ... now it appears were the image many would like society to reflect. Tell me how that is constitutional, just or right? That's an abuse of our oath, and the American people should be ashamed ... forcing a practice amongst our voluntary servicemembers that has not been accepted in their own home towns. Tell you what ... when it works on main street you won't have to abusively legislate it on the troops. So do that first, if you can, before you tell us how we ought to be.

[guzzijohn]

PW, I read the King James version of the Holy Bible. Apparently your readings are very selective. I am not pro gay, I am anti hate for your fellow man. I am still waiting for your answer to my question that you are conveniently avoiding.
GuzziJohn

[williamlayton]

Frankly
There have been many homosexuals who have served honerably in the service---during war & peace.
There are accounts of some being known but overlooked as they made no attempt to being obvious.
There is speculation about at least one CMH being.
Now, I look on homosexuality thru the eyes of scripture and leave this business at the feet of the one that has the authority.
Blessings

[searlock]

Team nelson you don't have to be concerned with the ucmj slobama and congress with a wave of barney fwank's magic fairy wand will do away with any ucmj article that prohibits buggery on the high seas. My senator richard burr aron burr as I like to call him voted for this crap and during this last election he assured us that he is both christian and conservitive. Not only is he a rino but he is also a christian in name only cino. How can I say this , you will know them by the fruits they bear. For many will say unto me Lord, Lord and I will say away with you I knew you not. This is a moral issue not a civil rights issue. I see plenty sticking their head in the sand. I served usn and usaf but if this had been the law then I would not have served.

[beerbelly]

After thinking about it I have changed my mind. This may be a good thing, friendly fire can rid the world of a lot of queer scum! But you will never hear about it. The military and news media will cover it up and say look it is  working!

[magooch]

Okay then--why not go ahead and finish the job; turn the military into a real zoo where pediphiles and those who are into beastiality can serve openly and honorably.

[powderman]

I did answer your question. Now answer mine. Would you have the character to cover a known gay in a firefight without hesitation?
GuzziJohn




Known gay what? Good guy, bad guy, American soldier? If you mean a friendly, of course I would defend him. I just got on the puter, I avoided nothing, I, unlike some here, have a life away from the computer. And NO, you did not answer my question. I'll ask AGAIN.
You claim to be a Christian, yet are proud of supporting a man and party that believe that killing babies is birth control, and homosexuality just another, acceptable lifestyle. Explain how this can be? I guarantee you that there are not now, never has been, never will be any PRACTICING, UNREPENTENT, homosexuals in Heaven. I emphasized the key words for you. Please point out the scripture supporting these perverts and baby killers. POWDERMAN. 

[jimster]

Why do folks feel the military is the best place to force social experiments that mainstream society hasn't embraced?

This is pretty much how I feel, I don't hate anyone...really don't care much what others do, it's not up to me.

It does seem kind of stupid to mess with the military, before you mess with my own backyard, hometown, or public places. Far as I know there have always been gays in the military...they must have figured it's not something to have a PARADE or high exposure over....at least not there. Why do gay people need a parade and lot's of exposure anyways, straight people don't.

What is it with those people?  This is not a hateful question...it's just some things should stay kind of personal...?

[ironglow]

You seem to be speaking authoritatively..please tell us of your military experience so we can better understand your basis.  Before you start ridiculing military who don't like the new measure..test the idea. Go to some gay bar and bring home one of them and share your meals and bathroom... then take showers together with them for some time, before you do complain about soldiers who may not like the idea of having to do the same thing.

If you have ever served in the military or lived in a college dorm you already have done the above, you just didn't know it or was in denial. Most gays that I have known come across with a much more Christian attitude than several who have posted here.
GuzziJohn

    Guzzi;
     IF..I have ever served in the military..no IF about it; see my avatar.  You comparison of a college dorm to the military is anemic, at best. ...a pathetic example, particularly when compared to combat arms.  Powderman is correct; very few Mennonites I know are in favor of homosexuality and the killing of the unborn. Is there a new breed of Mennonite cropping up ? I was educated by way of a Baptist seminary, and of course we both know the Mennonite break started when Menno Simmons decided to lead his flock away from main stream Baptists.  We also know that except for some details the basic doctrine of Bible Baptists and Mennonites are basically the same. We are instructed to "hate the sin, but love the sinner".
   Her is one area where the Bible speaks of homosexuality...I quote from the King James Version;
   " For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use in: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in  themselves that recompence of their error which was meet".   (Romans 1:26,27)  
  
   Let's look at that last phrase..." Receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet". Simply said..they get 'payback' for persisting in their homosexual sin...could that payback be ...AIDS ?  
    According to God's word we are to help the sinner to escape his/her sin and find forgiveness in Jesus.  We are specifically instructed NOT to facilitate their staying in a sin which could lead to their damnation. 
  The text I used was not "out of context", but completely in agreement with the Bible throughout...here, compare the New Americvan Standard with the KJV;     http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/passage.aspx?q=Romans+1%3A26%2C27&t=kjv&t2=nas

   Remember, as the Bible says, if you assist someone in their sin, you are a partaker of  that sin..

[crustylicious]

Thank God I live in a country governed by a Constitution and Bill of Rights, not ruled by some wacked out Christian talibaners who consider themselves the defacto interpreters of the Bible!

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

[ironglow]

Thank God I live in a country governed by a Constitution and Bill of Rights, not ruled by some wacked out Christian talibaners who consider themselves the defacto interpreters of the Bible!

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

Crusty;
  Both your links are well handled by my last post..both being of no consequence as to what I posted.  
  My major concern here is the cohesion of our combat units with all the pollution being forced upon them by the "progressives" in government.  My grandson just arrived home on leave from Parris Island and in our (his Dad and I with him) last evening, he told of a meeting held at PI concerning just this question.  In attendance were leading base officers and the commandant of the Marine Corps, along with about 500 officers and non-commissioned officers.
   After informing the troops about the possible repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" and how the politicians in Washington want the absorption of their new program into the military, the commandant asked for a show of hands for those who wanted the repeal of "don't ask, don't tell" and or the adoption of a homosexual welcoming program.
   Among the 500 in attendance, not one hand was raised.   I agree with Squirreluck ...this is not a good thing...

[jimster]

eh...maybe our congress is so stupid all they did was repeal "don't ask, don't tell"....in which case it just goes back to the same way it was before Clinton....
Remember...you have a bunch of people in congress that don't read their own legislation, don't read anyone elses either, and are just stupid enough to repeal
the Clinton deal with nothing else added....in which case....they just boot the gays out as always.  They actually are stupid enough to not know what it was before the
don't ask, don't tell.    

Wouldn't that be funny?  WHOOPS!  We botched it again!    We have to repeal the repeal!

http://capitolhillcoffeehouse.com/index.php/article/761

[teamnelson]

Excellent link Jimster, worth everyones read.

... but on a side note; DOD/JCS has directed down to lowest levels to suspend all admin separation packages for homosexuals. If we do in fact go back to pre-Clinton standards, homosexuals can be criminally charged, receive UCMJ punishment and be booted under less than honorable conditions, losing all VA benefits (education being the one most of the gay servicemembers who have outed themselves to me are expecting upon separation). If folks will remember during Clintons discussions it was perceived by many in the gay community as a positive step allowing gays to serve without fear of disciplinary action. I know there has been a surge in self declarations by homosexuals in the military hoping to get out before this hit; they saw the writing on the wall plain as day.

[powderman]

crusty. Your preacher, so called rev white, is leading a lot of folks to hell with  him. He's a liar. Theres no misunderstanding what God has to say about these deviates, it's very plainly written. In addition to Romans there are plenty of other scriptures concerning these perverts. They used to have a cleansing of Jerusalem and other cities every once in a while. The deviates were  rounded up and driven away and told that they would be killed if they came back.  POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

Judge the man on his ablity to do his job. If he insist on flaunting his sexual behavior while in the service be it hetro or homo boot his azz out . If he is a good soilder so be it . God will judge we don't need to . I have worked when homosexuals were on the job. They did not act one way or the other. They did their job. I know their lifestyle is of no intrest to me so I don't feel at all uncomfortable around them. Maybe seeing stright people go about their life may encourage them to go back to a stright life style . I have confidence our military will work it out in a profesonal mannor !

[billy_56081]

IG: 

Remember, as the Bible says, if you assist someone in their sin, you are a partaker of  that sin..

OOooohh....don't forget that now.!  If the policy is good enough for our number one ally, foreign aid recepient, and world's most invincible army then its good enough for our guys, gals, or whatever.... so it must not be sin...


..TM7
.

Old TM is there nothing you cannot link back to your hatred of Judaism? Dude, I gotta give ya credit, your hatred is consistent. So ya gonna goose step and seig heil around your CHRISTmas tree?

[powderman]

Old TM is there nothing you cannot link back to your hatred of Judaism? Dude, I gotta give ya credit, your hatred is consistent. So ya gonna goose step and seig heil around your CHRISTmas tree?



BILLY. I doubt seriously that the tms celebrate CHRISTmas. It would go against their religion. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

Thank God I live in a country governed by a Constitution and Bill of Rights, not ruled by some wacked out Christian talibaners who consider themselves the defacto interpreters of the Bible!

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

  Crusty;
        I think there are many who are well aware that whatever one's hangup is..he can find some false prophet somewhere, who will "tickle his ears".
  Such is the case with the homosexual crowd, in fact there is a ersatz denomination the "Metropolitan" church which caters to them and helps to spin passages the way the homosexuals like to hear them. If perchance, that is your deep-down problem, you're still welcome to post, I'm sure.
  You will notice however, the false teacher did not even deal with (Romans 1:26,27)...that one is a bit more difficult to 'spin'. My only words for that false teacher are found in (Matt 7:21-23)...take it or leave it..
   
       Has anyone noticed that when most people are involved in a sin..drunkeness, a thief, a liar, a robber, a doper etc...when they want to get help, be cured or turn to God, they realize they must first admit their sin and admit to themselves...that it is a sin...
   Most often, very few in the homosexual crowd refuse to admit it is sin, and Their kind stays, hopelessly enmeshed in  their muck. A few will recognize their sin for what it really is, repent and climb out of their self-imposed pit.
   This freedom is available to all...they only need ask..

[guzzijohn]

Powderman:
Let me reword my question to you since I guess I was not clear.
You are in a platoon out on patrol. One or more of your platoon members are known to you to be homosexual. The platoon gets into a firefight, would you without hesitation risk your life, and provide aid and assistance to help the homosexual members of the platoon as you would the non-homosexual members if needed? This is a simple yes or no question. 
GuzziJohn

[ironglow]

  Guzzi;
  Having been a soldier, I will answer it foor PM:
   As a soldier, I will do my duty..same as if I were guarding a vial of anthrax which I was ordered to protect. I would still know the anthrax was deadly, but duty is duty...

[jimster]

I've never felt felt threatened in any way from a gay person, or even all that uncomfortable, guess I'm pretty secure in who I am, I've worked around them, ate around them and been next to them without any worries at work. Taking religion out of the picture for a minute, everyone has their views. What interests me is the fact congress is always trying to legislate something they can't control, in the process they always wind up wrecking a few things and even hurt the people they claim to be helping. The gays would have been better off without congress "heppin em out"....kind of ironic if you stop and think about it. Congress has wrecked entire races, I don't suppose wrecking a small percentage of gays is going to be too hard for these dolts in congress. If the gay crowd is smart, they won't be looking for too much legislation, but I think a very loud few are not speaking for the silent majority of gays. Most gays probably don't want the lime light and would like things to calm down...least I think so. There have been homosexuals since the beginning, whatever the reason/reasons, they are not going away and everyone knows it.  Nothing new.

There are just some things you can't legislate, sooner or later you would think they would learn this.  
Doesn't seem real wise to me to mess with the military too much, everyone knows gays are already there, most of them might not be in a hurry for things to change, maybe they like things the way they are now in the military...anyone ask them? I doubt it...they won't be saying much either way. Congress isn't doing them any favors in my opinion.  

[guzzijohn]

Once again let me say that I am not pro homosexuality but many homosexuals are good people and human beings. As was posted by Ironglow “Love the sinner but not the sin” Examples below are just plain hate.  Hate is a sin and hate has been shown in some of these posts.

From Powderman:
BOY, now we can bunk the boys and girls together, share the showers, etc. There are enough real men and women in America without allowing these perverts to be in everybodys face. Shame on the dems, other libs, and pantywetters. Sickening. POWDERMAN

BEERBELLY. HEH. Going to church (Westboro) would be a step forward my friend

You have claimed to be a mennonite and a Christian but openlt support the obamination, queers

I reckon they could always have an all gay outfit, point them towards the enemy and say, if you catch em, you can have them. POWDERMAN.

Theres no misunderstanding what God has to say about these deviates, it's very plainly written. In addition to Romans there are plenty of other scriptures concerning these perverts.

From Beerbelly:
Looks like it is time to trade in my old eagle globe and anchor for a membership in the Westboro Baptist Church.

After thinking about it I have changed my mind. This may be a good thing, friendly fire can rid the world of a lot of queer scum!

GuzziJohn

[bigMikeA]

post deleted by bigMikeA.  was inappropriate

[powderman]

guzzi. YES, I would defend them the same as any other member of my platoon. POWDERMAN. 

[beerbelly]

I will answer your question. He would not come back!

[powderman]

guzzi. I reread my posts and see nothing wrong with anything I said. You clearly support these sexual deviates and predators and even more clearly deny what God has said about them, You are the first so called mennonite I've ever known to deny Gods word. I really doubt that you go to church, let alone read the Bible, but I'll list some scripture for you to read, if you have a Bible. POWDERMAN. 

1st Corinthians ch 6, vs 9.
Romans, Ch 1, verses 26- 28.
Leviticus, CH 18, vs 22 AND ch 20, verse 13.
Ephesians ch 5, verse 12.
Deuteronomy ch 22, vs 5. AND ch 23, verses 17, 18.
2 nd Kings, ch 23, vs 7.
1st Kings, ch 22, vs 46. Ch 14, vs 24. CH 15, vs 12.

Read these then tell me that God approves of these perverts. Need more, I'll look em up if I get time. Merry Christmas. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

IG:  

Remember, as the Bible says, if you assist someone in their sin, you are a partaker of  that sin..

OOooohh....don't forget that now.!  If the policy is good enough for our number one ally, foreign aid recepient, and world's most invincible army then its good enough for our guys, gals, or whatever.... so it must not be sin...


..TM7
.

        TM;
    I can see you haven't talked at length with any of our first line combat troops who dealt with Muslim embedded forces in the sandbox !  Yes, Muslims say homosexuality is a grave sin, punishable by death..that's what their talk says...but there must be a lot of "looking the other way" going on.  Talk to a real combat member of the Army or Marines and ask them to explain the practice of certain fngernails being allowed to grow long on the IA embeds...

[SHOOTALL]

So the Govt. decides to not make it an issue anymore . It might not be my choice or your choice but it gives the freedom to decide . They ( in reality we Americans, since they rep us all) in Govt. voted to give back a freedom . That does not mean either the military or Americans are partners in crime with the homosexuals any more that they are drunks because some soilders drink a bit much from time to time. In the long run it will be harder on them since now they are soilders with out excuses . Get caught doing something you are not suppose to no more don't ask / don't tell .
 I wouls also ask what will change ? They are in the military now , will the fact that others know now in some cases make any difference ? Wouldn't most want to know ? I would venture a guess that most knew anyway.

[powderman]

The difference is that the military now has to condone sin. Yes, I see a lot of good soldiers who will not reinlist. The queers have served for years but didn't brag about it, they need to crawl back under their rock. The obamination has helped drive another nail in Americas coffin. POWDERMAN. 

[SHOOTALL]

I don't see them condoneing it at all. The heathen pratice has been on earth longer than America itself . I see the GOVT./military deciding to stop trying to do anything but dealing with those who get out of line. They can't stop it other than keep every member under a watchful eye and on base at all times , and then if the wrong bunch got togather all bets would be off. I believe other military laws/regulations/ rules will cover any misbehavior and now can be applied with out concern for sexual orientation.
To be honest it one more minority absorbed back into the general population and privlage lost.