Author Topic: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi  (Read 6786 times)

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Offline AtlLaw

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5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« on: December 19, 2010, 10:34:35 AM »
Now I got a 223 Handi on the way.  I also have a few thousand rounds of milsurp 5.56.  Has anybody fired 5.56 in a Handi?   ???
Richard
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Offline mo.hillbilly

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 11:00:28 AM »
 :-\I've shot a few thru my handi and did'nt se any problems such as excessive pressure or anything. Not sure about accuracy as i did'nt shoot from a rest. It makes for cheep shooting and brass is plentiful too.

Offline cantankerous

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 11:11:11 AM »
Handi's instructions caution that the rifling is for accuracy w the 55 grain bullet.  Will suffer w the heavier 63(?) grain bullet. I've shot quite a bit of the 55. Works fine. Haven't tried the heavier bullet. Would do so if I had some on hand.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 11:42:22 AM »
Handi's instructions caution that the rifling is for accuracy w the 55 grain bullet.  Will suffer w the heavier 63(?) grain bullet. I've shot quite a bit of the 55. Works fine. Haven't tried the heavier bullet. Would do so if I had some on hand.

That's only with old 1:12" twist barrels, and not entirely true even at that, there are a few heavier bullets that will shoot well in 1:12" twist barrels, 60gr Nosler partition, 63gr Sierra #1370, 64gr Win PP and maybe the 70gr Speer. All H&R 223 barrels made since about 2007 have 1:9" twist.  :)

H&R does or did warn against shooting 5.56 Nato ammo in their 223s.

Tim
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2010, 12:55:51 PM »
Will suffer w the heavier 63(?) grain bullet. I've shot quite a bit of the 55. Works fine.

What I have is 55 gr.  Bought it to use in my favorite AR, an A1 clone, which has a 1 in 12 barrel.  Good to hear you haven't had any problems!   :)

H&R does or did warn against shooting 5.56 Nato ammo in their 223s.

That's what I thought I'd heard, and not just for the Handi.   :-\  'course the warning sounds like a CYA to me rather then a "YOU WILL DIE!   :D

Guess I'll try it and see...  ;)
Richard
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Offline watkibe

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 07:23:38 PM »
...and maybe the 70gr Speer. Tim

No maybe about it for me, I love the way the Speer 70 grainers work in my 1:9 223 Ultralight barrel !

Offline mechanic

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 01:22:16 AM »
I've shot a few boxes of milsurp through mine with no issues.  Not the most accurate, but ok for plinking.  No pressure problems.  Just check the throat depth to be sure.  Mine has a long throat and I'm well off the rifling.

Ben
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 01:55:32 AM »
  I've shot a bit of FN Herstal milsurm through my Handi.  A good time was had by all, no bad to report.

Offline reclusej

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 10:43:30 AM »
I shot some Wolfe Brand steel case and had bad luck. It wouldn't eject.
 Thought it was a chamber problem but shot Remington brass and no problem.
I guess it is an individual barrel situtation. I also shot some new brass made  by a Greek
outfit and the brass split (1" split) 2 out of 3 shots. I only shot 3 rounds. Be careful with
what you buy.
 You get what you pay for. Lesson learned. reclusej
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 10:47:05 AM »
Steel case Russian Tula 55 grain FMJ is about 1MOA out of mine. My most accurate Handi. I have tried reloading the steel case for kicks. Various $$ varmint bullets with Fed Match primers and different combos of IMR4895. Shoots fine, not as accurate as the cheap stuff....lol

Offline petemi

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 12:20:28 PM »
My 1 in 9 Handi .223 shoots 55 gr. Russian Junk just fine.  The ejection problem is with the ejector.....that's why all my Handis are extractor.  I'm not going throuth the B.S. of carrying a rod with me in the woods to poke out stuck cases......especially if I need a second shot.

I have heavy leather gloves with brown jersey glove liners, and I pick the spent cases out just fine, August or February.  I won't own an ejector rifle.  Don't ever want to see one close to home.

Pete
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Offline gendoc

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 12:46:55 PM »
we ain't shot no milsurp ina handi.... only in milsurp raffle-guns !!!
as far as ejectors go in this part da world... hada few prollums wifum in rimless cartages, but not ever hada
prollum wif a ejector for a rimmed case.
my boys autos shoot that milsurp stuff kinda gud !!! ;D
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Offline jlwilliams

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 03:31:57 AM »
  The laquer on the Wolf ammo can get sticky.  I've had a few rounds stick in my Handi and I know a guy who had a realy hard time getting a case out of a Savage bolt gun.  The AK and SKS type guns seem to run fine on the Russian laquered stuff ( big surprise- the Russian ammo works great in the Russian type guns ;)) but it can be problematic in other platforms.  Back to the original question, any brass cased milsurp ammo is fine.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 04:06:47 AM »
What I have is Guatamalan.  Good stuff.  I never used any Russian (Wolf) stuff in anything but the AK, 91 or 44.  I seriously doubt that I'd use it in either of my AR's!   :D

Thanks for the input y'all.  I think I'll give the milsurp a... SHOT!   :D
Richard
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Offline petemi

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 04:17:20 AM »
The SKSs and AKs were wisely made loose to drag through mud, dirt and rivers.  In Viet Nam, they were much better at that than our M16.  I think that's why the steel cased, lacquered Russian ammo works in Russian rifles.  A buddy of mine and his companion ran out of ammo and destroyed their M16s and shot their way out of Cambodia with AK47s. This may be treasonous to say, but Kalishnikov is one of my heros, as is Stoner.  By the way, I did electrical work for Stoner in Florida.....what a gun collection ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)  I have a picture somewhere of Stoner and Kalishnikov shaking hands at the Geneva Arms Convention years ago.  I doubt those two guys are still above turf, but they certainly left a footprint.

In a Handi, it seems the lacquer melts a bit and adheres to the chamber and after a few rounds results in a stuck case.

Sorry about the history lesson,

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
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Offline Singlepopper

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 05:33:59 AM »
The 5.56mm surplus stuff I used (from Sportsman's Guide) was the most unpredictable stuff I've ever shot in my Handi (1:12) ... not that the list of stuff I've shot is that long. Only bought 40 to shoot and I am glad it's gone.
Jim Allen

Offline Flynmoose

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 06:26:02 PM »
The newer Wolf is poly coated, seems to work better than the lacquer coated stuff.
FM
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 08:59:37 AM »
I have never shoot my Handi fast enough for lacquer/poly to be an issue.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 09:45:22 AM »
Why Pete, youre not just a Uper-ge-zer!
Who'd a thunk, hey?
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Offline srussell

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2011, 09:41:34 AM »
a buddy of mine  and myself shot our handies with green tip ammo and got some really flat primers.

Offline bwcweld

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2011, 04:45:50 PM »
ive been using imperial brand milsurp.  is this brass good enough to reload?

Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2011, 05:39:00 PM »
ive been using imperial brand milsurp.  is this brass good enough to reload?
Imperial brass is great stuff. I've used their brass in 7x57, never had a problem. I believe Imperial is a Canadian company.
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My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline Deerhunter#1

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 12:31:55 AM »
I had nothing but problems with my 223 and any steel case ammo. Every case would get stuck. Glad to see some have had good results with it and are able to shoot the cheap ammo. Not to change the subject but I am waiting on a 7.62x39 barrel and was wondering about the steel case ammo for this . Has anyone had any success with and specifi brand. would like to shoot it cheap for range days and wanted to get some ammo for when I get it back.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2011, 04:03:02 AM »
Somewhat akin to what the 'investment guys' say," performance of others is not indicative of what yours may be".......
Only way you will know is to try some in your barrel.
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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Offline PHATINJUN

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2011, 05:28:01 AM »
DH#1        "Not to change the subject but I am waiting on a 7.62x39 barrel and was wondering about the steel case ammo for this . Has anyone had any success with and specifi brand. would like to shoot it cheap for range days and wanted to get some ammo for when I get it back."         Maybe you missed the hundreds of posts? on why the 7.62x39 was discontinued. Some guys have been able to get them to shoot the cheap stuff but the caliber was discontinued do to FTF with it.Kurt
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Offline ironglow

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A frequently asked .223 question....
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2011, 09:31:53 PM »
  Tim;  Perhaps this would be a good "sticky"...
      I often get asked this question and it can be important information to impart. 
   ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
   http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MediaPages/ArticleDetail.aspx?mediaid=316
 
       Is 5.56mm safe in my .223 Remington?
  The .223 Remington is a sporting cartridge with the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge. It is loaded with a .224" diameter, jacketed bullet, with weights ranging from 40 up to 90 grains, though the most common load by far is 55 grains.
The primary differences between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm (NATO) are that .223 Remington is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 NATO and the 5.56 NATO chamber has a longer leade. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 NATO chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 NATO ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as flowing brass, difficult extraction, or popped/punctured primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the firearm. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 NATO "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.
While the 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made with thicker brass in the web area than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56 NATO cartridge measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute) location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56 NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Remington test barrels. SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56 NATO round fired is basically a proof load, potentially very dangerous. The 5.56 NATO chambers, also known as mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the bullet engages the rifling of the barrel. The .223 Remington chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber, used by Rock River Arms or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington equally well.
Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56 NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered firearm due to the excessive leade. Using 5.56 NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered firearm can lead to excessive wear and stress and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice. Some commercial fireams marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it. Signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or puncturing of the primers) should also be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 NATO ammunition
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Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2011, 07:58:50 AM »
... This may be treasonous to say, but Kalishnikov is one of my heros, as is Stoner.  By the way, I did electrical work for Stoner in Florida.....what a gun collection ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)  I have a picture somewhere of Stoner and Kalishnikov shaking hands at the Geneva Arms Convention years ago.  I doubt those two guys are still above turf, but they certainly left a footprint.

In a Handi, it seems the lacquer melts a bit and adheres to the chamber and after a few rounds results in a stuck case.

Sorry about the history lesson,

Pete

 Pete is this the picture (sorry for the size, I pulled it off a web site)?
 
 Eugene Stoner passed in 1997, Mikhail Kalashnikov is still alive, I think the man is around 90 -93 years old.
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline ironglow

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2011, 10:05:07 AM »
a buddy of mine  and myself shot our handies with green tip ammo and got some really flat primers.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  Green tip is armor piercing..it will drill through 1/4" armor plate @ 200 yds.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline tomme boy

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2011, 11:38:59 AM »
No it is not armor piercing. If it was true AP then it would not be available to purchase. It was ment to be able to pierce a kevlar helmet and extended range. Not sure what the range was. 500??
 
If it was AP, it would be black tipped. And the steel case sticks in the chambers because of the steel in the case. It does NOT spring back like brass does. It is unable to release from the chamber walls of the barrel. The so called laqure has nothing to do with it. It was a rust preventative for the case. The reason the Russian guns do not have a problem with this is becuse of the size of the extractor that they use. It is large enough to rip it out of the chamber.

Offline tacklebury

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Re: 5.56 MilSurp in a 223 Handi
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2011, 12:49:34 PM »
I just shot 15 through mine this after noon.  It was old Lake City Arsenal from my days in the Infantry.  Been sitting in a cupboard for 20 years .  Shot pretty good though.  Most of the cases were bent a little, as they were mainly misfeeds from when I ran a range.  I'd often keep them policed up so someone didn't try to jam them back into a clip.  (4) of em were bent too much to load into the chamber but the rest did pretty good as I walked in the scope.  I'm loading up some of my own, so this was just a test run for the scope mainly.  ;)
 
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