Author Topic: FMJ on yotes  (Read 1955 times)

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Offline AtlLaw

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FMJ on yotes
« on: December 19, 2010, 01:23:38 PM »
Has anybody used 5.56 FMJ bullets on coyotes?  I've got a few K of milsurp ammo but I won't use it if the bullets just punch a hole in and out and the animal runs off to die.   :-\
Richard
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 02:17:35 PM »
Richard

I have shot a few with the 55grn FMJ military load.  One ran about 30 yards and fell, the other at least 100 yards before he dropped - Lucky there was snow on the ground.

I like light weight for caliber expanding bullets on coyote.  I have shot dozens with both 40 grain .223 and 32 grain 204 Ruger, and most all have been immediate kills.  I like to call, and most of my shots are close, so the bullets tend to stay in the dog, and do little damage to the pelt .

    larry
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 02:40:41 PM »
I have a friend who used 55 grain FMJBT's they seem to tumble and kill fairly well. That said most of us do not use them to avoid ricochets.
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Offline cjclemens

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 04:48:55 PM »
I'd have to agree with billy.  The FMJ's most likely kill as well as any other bullet type.  We just dont use 'em around here because they tend to travel farther.

Offline trotterlg

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2010, 04:57:54 PM »
This subject comes up over and over again.  There is a real good reason that HP and plastic tip bullets are made, they work better than FMJ's.  FMJ's work so bad that in some places they are not even legal to use while hunting.  Sure they will kill a Coyote but you can also turn a screw with a table knife, use the proper tool for the job.  Larry
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Offline Modoc

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 05:13:24 PM »
Check your local game regulations also. A lot of states and provinces do not allow FMJ bullets for the take of game.
California (my location) mandates an exposed lead point or bullet designed to expand on impact.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 01:38:38 AM »
Check your local game regulations also. A lot of states and provinces do not allow FMJ bullets for the take of game.
California (my location) mandates an exposed lead point or bullet designed to expand on impact.
[/quote

I will bet old Richard will know the law where he lives.  ;)
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline jlwilliams

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 01:52:57 AM »
  I wouldn't use FMJ on coyotes.

Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 05:18:29 AM »
Has anybody used 5.56 FMJ bullets on coyotes?  I've got a few K of milsurp ammo but I won't use it if the bullets just punch a hole in and out and the animal runs off to die.   :-\

A close range .22 can punch a hole in and out of a Coyote and it will run off on you for sure.

Your centerfire is hardly a rimfire (velocity wise) and will generate perhaps 1200 more ft lbs of energy.

What this means is that when even a "tough" bullet enters living flesh at high velocity, there is going to be a massive amount of hydrostatic shock released that is initially going to open the wound channel to great proportions.

The Coyote (even some of our 60 lb eastern types) are simply too small of a critter to take this kind of abuse and a hit near the boiler room is often going to mean instant lights out as the cnc has recieved a sever shock.

When you skin that Coyote out, It is common to find large areas of bruised, bloodshot meat around the wound channel which verifies that the hydrostatic shock does happen. This is something that you knew already.

Please note that velocity needs to be present for this to happen. If you operate strictly within Calling Range like I do, the fit is going to be like hand in glove.

What is calling range?...I am going to say 150 yds max but usually closer. I do not like them to get much under 100 yds because even that "tough bullet" out of a centerfire can create a rip in the nearside hide.

What is a tough bullet?...For me it is the 55 gr Hornady #2267. It is a .224 FMJ-BT. I shoot them out of a .22-250 for an actual velocity of around 3,591 which is 169 fps under the 3,760 claimed in my load data.

Ricochets?...Your darn right a bullet will ricochet and my .22 lr is the worst offender as the bullets will bounce all over the place (if you let them)..Perhaps we could compare this to a fmj .223 at the 400yd mark? even if the bullet happened to be a softpoint, would there be enough velocity left over to make the bullet mushroom out instead of skip or bounce?...Do we really have any buisness shooting a 150 gr or heavier bullet out of the likes of a .25 cal bore or larger? The answer is yes because we are sure of our backstop, the number one rule.

We are talking about a varmint class bullet "55gr or under" touching down at 150 yds or under (read calling ranges) while still moving at or over 3000 fps. Such a bullet in this weight class is can be notorious for leaving the jacket behind whether in the form of large amounts of copper petals which can be found at the surface of the dirt berm or even the entire jacket which can be left behind in a lot of different media while the lead core continues on through.

The jackets on these lightweights will survive the likes of passing through a Coyote though with the benifit of getting a small in and a small out which is important if you skin everything out like I do.

Richard, I do not have any idea how tough that your milsurp fmj ammo is but again, is going to be a lot more fragile than the likes of a 170gr out of the bore of your 94'....I would use that ammo but keep your backstop in mind or calling ranges where that bullet is going to touch down quickly.

This subject does come up over and over again as claimed and I find myself the "odd man out" on the majority of these post's and I usually avoid them because it can take a month for the hair to grow back on my arms n eyebrows after the flaming is done. I have avoided them at least until today!

Some of my Best or Worst arguments here were with the late Lawdog. Lawdog thought that I was crazy on the "velocity kills" issue and I, in turn, wondered if he had ever shot a Coyote in his life. Lawdog liked to use the .22 Hornet and an expanding bullet that did it's job well out to 150 yds with the bullet often staying in the yote. Reflecting back on this, I think that it would be an excellent combo for the caller but don't own one yet so I continue to use what I have and am getting hides that are worth skinning.




Offline Buckskin

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 06:56:36 AM »
I'm not sure why you would even consider usinf fmj with the great fragmenting bullets of today.  Instead of one small in and out you get one small in and dead dog in no time.  I shot one yesteday at 280 yds with my 223 and 60 gr vmax.  Hit him a little far back and he was dead in 30 yds.  fmj and he wouldn't have been found.
Buckskin

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Offline Catfish

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 08:40:46 AM »
The bluuets I use on coyotes are really alittle to explosive for coyote, but I continue to use them because here in Ohio I just can`t take a chance on a rickochet and the FMJ can bounce a long way.

Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 05:32:24 AM »
Quote
I'm not sure why you would even consider usinf fmj with the great fragmenting bullets of today

Very good point, a lot of results have been reported over a lot of years and the bullet that stay's in while creating a lot of damage is highly desired. Results can vary though so I have stuck with that old "hide" bullet that was recommended by Hornady. I did perk up a bit when the "Frangable Grenade" bullets came out but lost that intrest when they showed one blowing up on a grape. My shot is usually a clean one but sometimes grasses or weeds could do this bullet in.

Quote
I shot one yesteday at 280 yds with my 223 and 60 gr vmax.  Hit him a little far back and he was dead in 30 yds

Good job and nice shot!...the rifle sure is fun! In my senario, I may have called your 280 yd yote In to 80 yds and the velocity induced hydrostatic shock would have shut it down right now. Works so well that I have been tempted to shoot one through the big middle (not) just to see what would happen. After this, and in my experience, that little 55 gr bullet just cannot take the abuse of touching down so quickly as it does not take much media for the jacket to be left behind or for the jacket to turn into pedals or shrapennal.

I guess that my sport is more about the calling than the shooting although the latter is great fun. A camera could be the ultimate but is simply not to be considered as they educate easily to overcalling or missed shots. Still though, if you ever get one close enough to see the look of deadly intent turn into wide eyed suprise, or have had one bounce off your chest, it is worth the experience.

Coyote hunting has made me a social misfit for sure. It causes one to do strange things like go out regularly in the single digit temps or even to be hunting them on Christmas eve. Benifits are that my phone will ring or that even the well dressed lady at the bank will excitedly tell me about what is happening at her cousins uncles sisters place. Great opportunitys but the drive can be prohibitive in a lot of cases, especially when those Coyote's are much closer than you would think and yes, I mean in your area also.

The Cattle or hog farmers want results and I am not above taking the 12 w/#4 buck in these cases. I am also not above making some dirt hole sets in the intrest of control. That rifle is pure enjoyment and the weapon of choice and I do have the option of using my Varmint loads on them (Sierra GameKings ahead of some H380) but skinning these can leave something to be desired at the .22-250 velocity's. I am leaning towards using your vmax bullets but in a much more sane caliber such as the .22 Hornet for my mode of operation which is calling them in close.

Offline Buckskin

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 08:31:06 AM »
Quote
I am leaning towards using your vmax bullets but in a much more sane caliber such as the .22 Hornet for my mode of operation which is calling them in close.

I also have a 204 in an Encore barrel, which I use 32 grain vmax's with and I have shot many of them from 260 to 330 yards with it.  Kills them just as fast as the 60 grain vmax, sometimes faster.
Buckskin

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Offline shot1

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 12:16:37 PM »
Not all FMJ's are created equal. A number of years ago I got a real deal on some 55 gr FMJ's made my IMI. $19.00 a thousand. I bought several thousand after testing them for accuracy in which I found that they shot just about as well as Sierra Match Kings in my Bushmaster AR which is pretty darn good. One day when I got to the range to do some shooting I found that someone had left 4 one gal. milk jugs full of water sitting at the 75 yard mark.   :o Target of opportunity  ;D . I loaded up the AR with some of the IMI's and popped them to see what would happen. On each one there was a big splash of water like a jet came out the front of the jugs. I thought that was strange. Upon getting to the jugs I expected to see a single 22 cal exit hole. But what I found was some many small holes in the sides and back about the size that rat shot from a 22 lr would make. The jugs still had about 2" of water in the bottoms of them and it looked like someone had taken a bullet and ground it down on a grinder and poured the grindings into the jugs. It was not too long after that I saw on TV on the History or Military channel a show about wounds from combat of something like that. In that show they stated that the Israel army had been using some bullets that were blowing BIG HOLES in people even though they were FMJ's. There was a big stink about it and they stopped using them. Guess where the bullets I got came from? You got it, Israel Military Industry is what IMI stands for. Since then I have shot some ground hogs with these bullets and I can't tell the difference between them and a ballistic tip in the destruction they do. They blow BIG HOLES. The jackets on these IMI bullets are VERY thin and I believe on impact they crumple or bend and the bullet almost immediately turns sideways and breaks apart in many pieces. I have never shot a coyote because until just the last couple years there were none around where I live. There are some that have been showing up in the last two years and I hope to try my luck on them this winter when deer season gets over. I will be using my AR but will be using a Sierra 69 gr Match King HP or maybe my T/C Contender pistol with the 6mm-225 win barrel with a 80 gr SSP Sierra at 2700 fps. Shots will be 200 yards or under max most would probably be between 50 and 100 yards.   

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2010, 04:51:32 AM »
The jackets on these IMI bullets are VERY thin and I believe on impact they crumple or bend and the bullet almost immediately turns sideways and breaks apart in many pieces.

There was a very interesting and creditable study done on terminal performance of various FMJ's.  It is somewhere on the web.  I read it years ago so I won't try to summerise what it says other then modern FMJ's are frangable.  Something like they yaw on entry then break apart at the cannelure.  Very interesting...

I checked the twist on my 223 last night and it's 1 in 12.  That's okay since, if I can't get quick kills with a small hole in and a small hole out, I want a light bullet that will go in a dog and not exit.   ;D
Richard
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2010, 05:44:01 AM »
I'm tempted to try the new 35 grain ballistic tips. The normal 40 grain ballisic tips exit 50% of the time for me on yotes.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Ron 1

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2010, 06:13:10 AM »
atlaw
 sounds like you may have a couple k rounds to punch some paper  ;D ;D ;D  sounds fun and at how many yrds ??? ???  have fun ;D ;D ;D ;D
         rw
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Offline ironglow

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2010, 07:31:37 AM »
  I use SAP, BT or HP bullets for this task..
   Just remember, depending upon what rifle you are using..be sure a military round is safe in it !

  http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html
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Offline prairiedog555

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2011, 12:51:20 PM »
I use FMJ for coyotes.  It is 30.06.  They don't run, they just die.  Maybe in .223 it is not advisable, but in large cal. seems to work well.

Offline Dogshooter

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 04:24:41 AM »
Where I live and hunt, we are beginning to call in more and more wolves. Have been told that FMJ's work well on gut shot wolves in that they do die, just not too close to the shooter. They run away and expire far enough away that their tracking collar doesn't alert authorities of the shooter's position. Of course I don't have first hand knowledge of the validity of that claim because it is against the law to shoot wolves in my state. And being the upstanding citizen I am, I would never break the law. As for coyotes, I wouldn't use FMJ's because I want to SEE them die, in their tracks. If I were to go out for coyotes with the knowledge that I MIGHT call in a wolf, and IF I was not above breaking that particular law, I would load my 22-250 with Hornady Superperformance ammo loaded with 50gr V-Max bullets and have a handfull of 50gr FMJ reloads in my pocket. But I would never do that. Oh, and did I mention that I would never do that?
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Offline dks7895

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 05:08:30 AM »
I shot a bobcat with a 55gr FMJ.  Nice neck shot at 60 yards, dropped in it's tracks.  An expanding, rapid or controlled, is a better choice.  But as always, shot placement plays a big part.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2011, 12:05:36 PM »
  How about using the old sniper trick (don't tell the Geneva conv. guys)... ;)
   Just grind or file the FMJ back to where some lead is showing.  Careful with some grinding though, the bullets can get hot real fast...(now how would I know that ?).
   You could file a couple and see how they work of water jugs or wet phone books.. ?
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Offline james

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Re: FMJ on yotes
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2011, 03:48:09 PM »
Since I don't eat coyotes and the hides are worthless here, I shoot them with anything I have with me. Bow, rifle or shotgun.  I prefer them to run off and die so I won't have to handle the mangy things.