Technique questions. Help please.

[Stuart C.]

My last formal target shooting instruction was years a lifetime ago with the .22s; Marksman, Marksman 1st Cl, Sharpshooter, etc.
Now that I'm enjoying the larger calibers, I could really use some tips for getting my groups smaller.

Today, mostly out of frustration, I held the rifle VERY firmy into my shoulder, with a front and rear rest.  It was my best group yet at that distance (200 yds).

So now I'm wondering 'What else am I probably not doing correctly" since I just stumbled on this latest improvement.  The four things I'd really appreciate input on (at least for now  ) are:

- Just how firmly to you hold the firearm when shooting from the bench, with just front and rear bags?

- I see some shooters with no left hand on the fore-end (right hand shooter).  It is back under the butstock maybe. Doesn't this allow the muzzle to just jump and doesn't that effect accuracy?

- Do you apply any downward or rearward pressure with the left hand?

- In what increments do you work-up loads? If the avg load is 36 grains, do you go up every two grains? (ex. 32,34,68,38) Every one grain? (32,33,34 etc.)

Thanks very much!!!

[bobg]

  Never done any real formal bench shooting. A bunch of us use to get together on Saturday mornings and shoot. One of the guys attended a lot of matches in NYS. I was told he held some titles in the state. One morning he told me damn Bob you have no idea what you are doing. He told me your left hand belongs back by the rear bag.  Let the gun jump. I started shooting that way and my scores did improve.
  I have always worked my loads up in 1/2 grain incruments. Not sure this is correct but that is the way i do it.   

[Stuart C.]

Bob, thanks.

Anyone else care to chime in, please do so.

[bobg]

  I thought this was a good topic Stuart. I was also interested in  seeing some answers to this. Looks like more plinkers than serious target shooters on here. On our Saturday shoots we were only shooting 100 yards. No one was shooting what i would call big bore guns. Mostly 222 and 223. The old guy that was instructing me was shooting a heavy barreled Remington 6MM.
   His ideas seem to differ from yours. He said your left hand controls the rear bag. No pressure on the rifle at all and a light enough trigger pull that you just touched it and it fired. One morning the old boy told me he knew where there was a Remington 40X 222mag. with a 15 power Unertl scope for sale. I bought it. Damn that rifle would shoot. The older guys all died and the younger guys stopped showing up so i sold the 40X to a guy on GBO.  I am long winded and bored this morning so i will tell you a little more. Not that you are really interested in hearing an old man rattle on.
   There is a black powder club about 10 miles from me. They host some very formal black powder shoots. My wife wanted to go watch one . We went. None of those guys held the rifle down. Let it jump. We became very good friends with a couple there.
     One day my wife ask the guy if she could shoot his gun. She did and loved it. The guy told her his sister in law had a custom made rifle she wanted to sell. Let's just say i paid more for it than the car i am driving now. The rifle weighed 50 pounds and was 55 caliber so i had to get into casting my own balls for it. My wife won a couple of trophies for high womens score with the rifle. It got to be a PITA. She couldn't lift it off the bench to reload it so i had to do that for her. She out shot me three matches in a row so i sold the rifle for $1oo more than i paid for it. Sorry for my long post. Just an old man rambeling on.

[SHOOTALL]

No claim to be expert but first when looking for a best load i try 1/2 grain inc. when the best two are found then 1/10 gr icm between them to fine tune. Note temp and you may need to adjust load if your temp has big changes thru out the year.
Where to put that non trigger finger hand . Light recoil rifles I use it to squeeze a bag full of rice under the toe of the stock as it works for fine adjustments. It as important to be lined up on the stock with your shooting shoulder place the gun on the bags and lean into it instead of drawing it back to you. You must also guard aginst canting the gun ( also scope must be correct on the gun or you will have built in cant. Also try placing the front bag in different places under the fore stock.
 with a hard kicking gun forget the above , get a 5 ft step ladder place a sand bag on top STAND behind it lay fore arm on bag grab gun with both hands and hold on tight. Or better yet get a buddy to sight it in for you. 

[bobg]

  What are we calling hard kicking guns?  I have shot a buddies 300 Win. Mag. off the bench a lot and i shoot that like i said above. Believe me the recoil is a little hard on that.

[SHOOTALL]

458 win mag taught me ! 

[bobg]

   I don't think that is a target gun SHOOTALL.  I sure do understand both hands on that one though.

[SHOOTALL]

My poor attempt at humor . I would add that a gifted coach will not have a certian way each shooter must follow . He will offer what has worked but also change the rules to fit the student when it makes sense to do so. We are all built different.

[SHOOTALL]

StuartC if I may suggest next time out shoot for fun at easy targets. Omit the pressure to do good , relax and enjoy yourself. As things start working just fine tune them but don't tense up. Sometimes i don't aim more than at a whole target , just working the trigger and feeling how the gun recoils. things like that allow you to learn each operation with out the distraction of the other parts , dry fireing is good also.
 Most important is to not develope bad habits .

[bobg]

   Looks like we both might be right SHOOTALL. With heavy recoil big bore hunting rifles use both hands with downward pressure on the barrel. The topic was target shooting. If i am not mistaken most of the long range target shooters are not useing anything bigger than the 300 Win. Mag. They are useing the method i stated. The last time i checked. Which as been a while ago and i don't remember the yardage.  .  The record was held by a guy shooting a 6MM PPC.
   It might help if we knew what caliber Stuart C was shooting.    

[Stuart C.]

7 mm Mauser.
I'll tell you one thing, I switched out the 4x and put on the 3x9 just to be sure.  I know the 3x9 is reliable. The 4x might be suspect.
Thanks for all the advice!!!! Keep it coming. 
I will try to get out this Sunday.
Thanks!!!

[bobg]

    Well Stuart it looks like the bottom line is What ever works for you. That is not a heavy recoil rifle. Should be about like the 7MM-08. Try a few different techniques and let me know what you get your best results with. I know how i would shoot it. I would use the free recoil method and let it jump.   

[DalesCarpentry]

I do a lot of shooting. Never anything formal though. I do consider myself to be a fair shot though. I had a Remington 700 SPS Varmint in a 22-250 that was a real shooter and now I have a Remington 700 VLS in a 308 that shoots very well. Both are capable of one ragged hole groups at 100 yards if I did my part with my hand loads. I have found I shoot better early in the day for some reason. You know when you are fresh and been up a couple hours and had a good breakfast. I know that sounds funny but it is true for me. I have gone to the range after working all day and can't shoot for crap!!! When shooting off the bench (I am right handed) I place my left hand just in front of the sand bag that supports the rear of the stock grasping it a little. The bottom of the rear of the stock has an angle to it so I use that hand to move the bag back on forth to come on target for elevation. I also lean into the rifle pulling it firmly into my shoulder. I do not put a death grip on the rifle. I just make sure it is firmly into my shoulder. Many experts would tell you to exhale prior to firing but I inhale and hold my breath. I squeeze the trigger all the way through. Now I will tell you this you could be the best shot in the world and if you have a trigger that has an 8 pound pull you will have a very hard time getting tight groups. I like mine at about 2 pounds and these Remington triggers when adjusted correctly break very clean. Now as far as scopes go I could not shoot a tight group with a scope that had a max power of 9. I have a 6.5x20x44 Vortex Viper scope on my rifle and it really is a nice scope. I enjoy theh extra power. That is me though and what works for me may not work for you. I regularly shoot pennies at 100 yards for fun. Below is one I shot with my 22-250. Well merry Christmas and take care Dale

[bobg]

   Go on line and check out bench rest shooting. Most of those guys don't even touch the gun. They just use the index finger to touch the trigger. These ARE heavy bench guns though.
    Sounds to me like you use the free recoil method Dale. Those look like 3 shot groups Dale. With my target guns i don't waste my time with anything under 5 shots. I have some 10 shot targets here shot with my old Rem. 788 in 243. 10 shots measure 3/8" center to center of groups. At a formal shoot that would not  even win someone telling you good job done there.
    We know what Stuart is shooting. We just don't know how formal his shoots are going to be.
    By the way Dale. I believe it is not legal to deface money. . Oh hell i have some dimes here that look just like your pennies.