Had an intruder on my property last night.

[The Famous Grouse]

It's amazing how a little real-life incident teaches you what you don't know and how unprepared you are.

Last night at 11:30 at night, my 2 YO boy woke up.  In the process of getting him settled, I went downstairs to get him a drink.

I was walking back upstairs when by blind luck, I happened to look out the front window and see a pickup truck stop at the end of our driveway.  And 1 guy got out and started walking slowly up the driveway.  Long story short, he did not attempt to come to the house, instead he walked straight back to the garage and disappeared around the side.  He never tried any house doors or looked in any windows.   

Now instantly I thought, "Should I get a gun?"  And of course all kinds of questions flooded my mind about can I legally confront someone on the outside of my property, in town, with a loaded gun, what can and can't I do with the gun, etc.  Bottom line was since I did not see that he was armed and the garage is about 30 feet from the back door, I went with the following plan:
 
I yelled to my wife that someone was on the property and be ready to call 911. 

Then I slipped out the back door and grabbed a nice ice scraper with a hickory handle.  I reached back in the door and hit the light switch turning on all the driveway and outside garage lights.  Then I yelled, "You behind the garage, come out of there real slow.  NOW!"

My idea was that if he was armed, I had an open door behind me and I could jump back inside.  If he charged me, I had a reasonable weapon in my hands and could fend off a hand to hand attack. 

So the guy comes out and I turned my flashlight right in his face and said what the hell are you doing on my property.  He slurs something about just taking piss, too much beer, etc .  I said get out of here NOW or in 3 seconds you 'll be regretting it.  He started to do a fast walk back down the driveway.  His hands stayed visible the whole time so I was fairly sure he did not have a weapon.  Then he broke into a run and jumped back into the pickup. 

So I called the police, but beyond the "what was he doing and what were his intentions" question, here's my issue:

Could I legally have gone out there with a gun?  Should I have? 

Assuming I did not point it at him or directly threaten him with it, could I and should I have gone out there armed?  If it makes any difference, I live in Minnesota, so state laws may come into play.  But even beyond that, in a situation where the intruder is outside the house and not attempting to get in, can I legally confront him with a weapon?  And is it a good idea?  Or was I foolish even to go outside in the first place, even with the standoff distance that I had? 

Thoughts please.

Grouse

[Anduril]

Good question, glad the situation turned out alright.

Should you ahve gone out armed? What if when you opened the door this fellow was on the other side waiting to get in?

I don't have an answer but it's got me thinking "if it was my house what would I do?"
I will be interested to read the opinions of others.
..

[jimster]

Could I legally have gone out there with a gun?  Should I have?  

Assuming I did not point it at him or directly threaten him with it, could I and should I have gone out there armed?  If it makes any difference, I live in Minnesota, so state laws may come into play.  But even beyond that, in a situation where the intruder is outside the house and not attempting to get in, can I legally confront him with a weapon?  And is it a good idea?  Or was I foolish even to go outside in the first place, even with the standoff distance that I had?

I can't say what is legal in your state, I do not know. I only know what is legal in my state, and in Michigan you can always have a gun anytime you want on your own property, carried any way you want.  In plain sight in a holster, in your hand, stuck in your pants...doesn't matter, it's your place, I can confront anyone I want on my property.  Sorry to say I only know our laws here, and that seems enough to try to keep up on because they change little things sometimes. Here in Michigan we are allowed to also stop a felon, or stop a felony in progress, it's up to us...and that might not always be a good idea either depending on the situation.

I also can't say if it is wise to go outside or not...every situation is different, sounds you like gave him a pretty good jolt though.  Personally, I would not have gone outside without a gun, once I decided to go outside...but that is just me...my saftey and my wifes safety comes before anyone elses safety.

Imagaine that...stopping at someone's house to relieve themselves. Glad that's all it was, times are dangerous in some places these days.  

[The Famous Grouse]

Good question, glad the situation turned out alright.

Should you have gone out armed? What if when you opened the door this fellow was on the other side waiting to get in?

I don't have an answer but it's got me thinking "if it was my house what would I do?"
I will be interested to read the opinions of others.

To be clear, the ONLY reason I stepped outside was that I was absolutely sure of where the intruder was.  I saw him all the way until he went behind the garage and there is at least 30 feet between where I was standing and where he would appear when he came back into sight.  I could also see the driveway and so if his buddy out in the truck got out, I could step back inside.   

I agree, I would NOT ever step outside in a situation where I didn't know where the intruder was or if I didn't know how many of them there were.  Far better to be behind a locked door. 

But funny how it goes when you get time to actually think.  Now I'm wondering why didn't I open a window and yell from inside?  See what I mean?   Easy to think you'll know what to do, but when the situation comes, it's hard to KNOW what to do.

Grouse

[jimster]

But funny how it goes when you get time to actually think.  Now I'm wondering why didn't I open a window and yell from inside?  See what I mean?   Easy to think you'll know what to do, but when the situation comes, it's hard to KNOW what to do.

It sure is...very good point. Sometimes securing your perimeter and talking to someone on the phone at 911 is a whole lot safer than going "out there"...guess you make that call when something happens, and decide then.  Nothing wrong with staying put...nobody goes out, nobody gets in. A lot easier than clearing your property or garage, or whatever. 

[SHOOTALL]

Its a bad idea to go out other than to save a life . Even if you know where one guy is are you sure there is only one ?
Also if the guy was waiting and shot could you jump bac faster than a bullet ?
I would be hard pressed to leave my wife and child. Also you pay taxes for police to investigate things like this. They have the tools , know how and back up .
 Remember winning is surviving and the best way to survive is miss the gun fight 
I don't say these this with out experince , I confronted a guy comming in my front door late one night . Didn't know there were 2 until I watched them run after I pointed a Colt 45 at him  I mean them . I was shaking more when I realized there were 2 .

[Spirithawk]

I would never step outside without a gun in such a situation. Just because you have one doesn't mean you have to fire it or even point it. Often, a simple warning that you're armed is enough. But, I most likely would not go out at all unless someone was in imediate danger or someone was trying to set my property on fire. Best to stay inside, make sure all windows and doors are locked, keep your firearm at hand and your family in a safe room and simply call 911. That's what LEO gets payed for.

[Mohawk]

Lock you and your family up in a room with no windows, gun in hand, and Call 911. Wait for the calvary. Let the operator know you have the gun.

[Noreaster]

Ok you hear something go bump in the night and you go and investigate. You did very well. If you had gone out there and zipped a bad guy who was going to harm you, a defense attorney, at a civil tort down the road-hired by the meatheads family, could make a point out of you leaving your secure home and placing yourself in the situation, "why didn't you stay where it was safe and call the police..." That can happen. In the real world we don't call the police everytime we hear a noise, (for one thing the police will label you a nut!) If you can legally own and carry the firearm then always go armed. I prefer a holster, (even a clip on,) rather then carrying in your hand. Practise from the holster with the other hand holding a light. The other thing to consider is it could be an LEO on your property searching for a bad guy from another call and running into you with a gun in your hand, or worse leveled at him/her. In my state we just had a few killers enter a woman's home and butcher her and her daugther while they were in bed, (the daugther barely survived.) Think of the doctor in CT who had two russian thugs enter his home, sexual assault and burn alive his wife and daughters. Horrible things can happen. We may never have them happen to us, but be ready. I'm glad your ok.

[SLEEPY BEEPER]

Let's play what if. In Minnesota. If you took a gun outside. Knowing there was a problem. And if you use it. You will probably be tried for murder. Your the one with the gun. And your the one that when out and used it. The fact that you are on you own property doesn't mean a thing. Stay inside and call the police. Should you have a gun inside? Probably two or three.

[Noreaster]

Wow, Minesotta is tough. If you use the cross walk without a traffic safety vest are you liable for property damage if a car hits you?

[pmeisel]

Glad it ended well for you.

I would have preferred something more substantial than an ice scraper, but I've been in a similar situation, you use what you got....

[torpedoman]

he would have never made it down my driveway to get close to my house. I'm pretty sure he would not have needed to take a leak after the shotgun went off.

[Spirithawk]

At least here in Missouri we have the Castle Law. 

[myronman3]

minnesota is alot like wisconsin.   were it me, i would have put the wife and kids in a secure room, ensured all doors to the house were locked, guarded the house from the INSIDE, and called the man.   if they try coming inside, that is where they die.   i would not go outside to confront.   there are too many things that can go wrong. 

[trotterlg]

If your state would put you in jail for shooting someone on your property you probably should never take a gun with you at all.  I would not go out at night without a gun even to chase off a Possum, you never know what else is out there.  I try to avoid places that I am not at least close to equal the baddest thing I am likely to find.  One time hunting Grouse I walked into a Meth Lab, I felt really small even carrying a 16 gauge.  Larry

[fatercat]

i would have got my m-14 shot the tires off the truck. my wife is well armed and can shoot better than me. she would be ready for the pisser(??). she would have called the police as soon as i saw the guy. the pisser was up to no good. be ready for the worst thing that can happen to you. always keep a throw down in your house.

[williamlayton]

You got lucky this time.
First, I don't buy the story about takin a whizz.
Drunks don't care where they pee-----I speak from real life experience.
Second---even if drunk and needing to pee---he could have been armed----I don't trust the judgement of drunks with guns. I have been in too many Texas Honky Tonks & speak from experience here, also.
Third, I would get the hell outta that state, whichever it is---and move to where you can protect yourownself.
This is a GOOD example of the need for self protection---Cops are never there when you really need 'em.
Blessings

[Mnswede]

Being a retired Marine, I don't Ass-u-me about the laws of Minnesota concerning lawful use of a weapon.  I also have a permit for conceal and carry.

Mn law states that you must be:
1.  Reasonably in immediate fear of death or great bodily harm for yourself or another.
2.  Be a reluctant participant.
3.  No reasonable means of retreat
4.  No lesser force would suffice, deadly force was the only option.

Mn has no "Castle Doctrine" and the protection of property isn't grounds for use of deadly force, see above list of four reasons!

Famous Grouse's only true option would have been, call 911 immediately first.  He could have gone out to get the license plate number if he felt safe enough to do so and believed his family wouldn't have been placed into harms way by do so.

You don't know the laws pertaining to deadly force for your state, lookup the State Statutes that are on your States wedsite.  If yoy can't figure out the legalesse mumbo jumbo, then get a book the puts the laws down in everyday language.  Still don't understand, then talk with a lawyer.  The price would be better spent then you in prison and or civilly sued by some miscretant.

[Mohawk]

The law is what the DA says it is until the Grand Jury or Judge says otherwise. That's the only interpretation that counts. If your life is not in immediate danger, and you shoot, then that is your risk. My first instructor used to say " You WILL know when to shoot. If you have to think you should not". Do you really want the DA to present a case stating that you shot an unarmed man for taking a leak behind your garage? That you hunted him down? Just always remember defense not offense.

[turk762]

Let's play what if. In Minnesota. If you took a gun outside. Knowing there was a problem. And if you use it. You will probably be tried for murder. Your the one with the gun. And your the one that when out and used it. The fact that you are on you own property doesn't mean a thing. Stay inside and call the police. Should you have a gun inside? Probably two or three.
[/quote
I agree with most of what you say, but lets play what if, what if he does go outside and he is not the only one with a gun, as you state it makes it sound like he is the only one armed, which we all know may or may not be true, he may have gone outside with the firearm as a precautionary tool only, at least here in WI if you have a firearm you must follow the same guidelines as a LEO, Weapon, intent, and delivery system= good to shoot.

He should have stayed in side. And he did go out armed already (wood handle), it doesnt matter that it has another use, when you intend to use it as a weapon it IS a weapon, (Example, A car, knife, lead pipe, axe, hatchet, ect.) if you do arm yourself do it with the correct tool for the job.

[williamlayton]

Grouse
What state do you live in?
Blessings

[Spirithawk]

You might want to think about getting a good watch dog. A lot of people are more afraid of a mean dog than a gun. When we lived in St. Louis our house was broken into 3 times. Got myself a pair of Chows and there was no more break ins.   If nothing else, even a small dog will delay intruders somewhat, giving you the needed time to take the necesary steps to protect you and your's such as reaching your firearm and dialing 911.

[Mohawk]

I had two Rottweilers in my car  WHILE they stole my radio. This was also during a stabbing in our parking lot.  Dogs are not a factor to an intruder. Just my personal experience, they will kill them, control them, or let them loose. Just defend your fort.

[Brett]

Unfortunately, and I believe wrongfully, most courts of law will view you as the aggressor/instigator the minute you attempt to confront an intruder, whether it be outside your home on your property or even inside your home.

You will be asked questions like:
"Why did you leave the safety of your house/bedroom/closet/hiding place/etc?"
" Why didn't you call police ASAP instead of confronting the intruder yourself?"
"Why didn't you just attempt to escape or leave the area if you feared for your safety?"
"What were you feeling, where you angry?"
"Did you seak revenge for this intrusion or any past incidences (robberies, burglaries, etc against you or any family member?"

Be prepared, and don't be surprised if the court tries to paint you as blood thirsty, trigger happy, vigilantly just waiting for any excuse to pump someone full of lead.  If, God forbid, you ever do have to shoot someone you better hope that they don't survive.  If you are dragged to court it will be better if there is only your side of the story and not "I was just looking for a place to take a leak because I drank too much ice tea at dinner when this made man came out with guns blazing!"   

[dougk]

I try to avoid places that I am not at least close to equal the baddest thing I am likely to find.  One time hunting Grouse I walked into a Meth Lab, I felt really small even carrying a 16 gauge.  Larry

Larry,
interesting how things like that happen.  My back up gun is a 10mm.

I was always taught you can never have too much fire power when it comes to personal defense.

[dougk]

Grouse
What state do you live in?
Blessings

I was thinking the same thing.  Also, what setting do you live (urban, rural).

[Spirithawk]

To give an example of how easily things could go wrong concider what happened to me a few years back. Our kids are grown so my wife and I live alone. We in the country and were somewhat secluded,26 miles to town and 1 1/2 mile to nearest neighbor. As we sat watching tv late one night, my wife glanced out the window and saw two men dressed in camo pants and dark shirts snooping around our sheds. Looking out I too saw them but no vehicle was in sight other than my own. Any other time I'd have stepped outside with my pistol in my hand but for some reason I didn't grab it. Opening the door I saw them coming towards me and both had pistols in their hands! I ducked back inside demanded to know who they were and what they wanted while retrieving my .44. They in turn demanded I step outside. My wife was on the phone dialing 911. Talking through the door it turned out they thought I was some guy that I'd never heard of. They finally asked the address and as you might guess they had the wrong one. They wanted the next house down the road. I finally convinced them and only confirmed my suspicion that they were Sheriff's Deputies when they turnd to leave and I saw it stenciled on the back of their shirts. Not once did they identify themselves! Had I stepped out with my pistol, as I normally would have, someone would most likely have died because shot's would have been fired by us both! Even if I'd have survived can you imagine the crap I'd have been in. My word against their's, if they survived, and even worse if they didn't. Your brain is your best weapon. Have a plan and stick to it.

[45-70.gov]

99 %  of the time    [my guess]

you ARE dealing  with an innocent moron

even calling the police  or  pepper spray  is over kill

in these  cases  100+ lumens  tactical  light to the eyes
and  an aggresive tone of voice  is  the best thing
i  don't let trespassers  feel welcome
and  have never had a repeat ''visitor''
not  saying those that stay inside  are  wrong...thats  just not for me

NEVER REMOVE THE GUN FROM YOUR POCKET UNTIL YOU NEED IT
AND   AT SUCH  TIMES  MY HAND IS IN THE SAME POCKET

 my dog once helped me capture a car theive hiding in my yard
years  later  a building inspector  posed a bigger threat to me
after  my dogs attacked  him and he hired a lawer

[dougk]

This question is very interesting as it goes to the heart of personal defense.

To me personal defense is just that defending your family and your self from an eminent  threat.  This does not mean putting yourself into a situation that causes you to be threatened.  But rather this means protecting your family and yourself from a threat that comes to you and every option has been exercised to avoid the threat.