Your thoughts on "Yankees"

[BUGEYE]

I just mentioned my cousin and andersonville in passing. it was interesting to go down there and visit his grave.
I've also done a little reading about that yankee prison at chicago. like I said, the history is interesting.
I was always a southern sypathizer until I moved south in 69 and had to refight the war every time some poor loser brought it up.  everyone knows that the war wasn't about slavery. lincoln used that to stir people up.

[subdjoe]

I just mentioned my cousin and andersonville in passing. it was interesting to go down there and visit his grave.
I've also done a little reading about that yankee prison at chicago. like I said, the history is interesting.
I was always a southern sypathizer until I moved south in 69 and had to refight the war every time some poor loser brought it up.  everyone knows that the war wasn't about slavery. lincoln used that to stir people up.

Still, you threw it out to make some sort of point about the southern barbarians.  "That yankee prison in chicago" was Camp Douglas.  Check out "80 Acres of Hell."  Again, the big difference between Camp Douglas and Andersonville is that the conditions at Camp Douglas were due to federal policy whereas the conditions at Andersonville were (mostly) circumstance.

"Everyone knows the war wasn't about slavery"??  Not according to what is taught at least through junior college.  And what the average man on the street thinks. 

You threw out the charge of someone else here being bitter.  Judging from what you wrote here, that seems to maybe be a bit of projection. 

[Gary G]

^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks for the heads up Gary G. I've added that title to my wish list!

GW, something else I gleaned that was new to me: The south asked to go in peace. They just asked to be left alone. 80% of Lincoln's cabinet favored letting them go. Then someone realized if the south went and if free trade was enacted (which was in the confederate constitution), this would be the end of Lincoln's reign of power. This appeared in the newspaper. Lincoln was already unpopular. If the south enacted free trade, then all European imports would come via southern ports at a 47% lower price than in the north, because of the Morill tariff. This would kill the northern industrialist  (they could presently jack up their prices at the expense of the south), which was Lincoln's power base. One week later he called another cabinet meeting in which all but one was for taking preventive measures, (aggression). This is why they devised the "make them fire the first shot" plan. There is quite a bit of proof offered; letters, diaries, newspaper articles, etc.

Most wars are fought for economic and political reasons. Most of the people do not want war. However, they are easily fooled!

There is also a chapter on Roosevelt's "make them fire the first shot" war. I haven't gotten that far yet.

Gary

[BUGEYE]

Mr. windbreak.   you were the first to say that some of you were bitter. check your early post.
I've known all my life why the war was fought, but when it comes up a reb will shake his finger at me and accuse me of thinking that the war is all about slavery. in 41 years down here I've met maybe 5 rebs that would discuss how the direction of the war might have changed if the south had a transporation system or access to more arms like the north
the south was not without genious or brave men. look at the hunley.
I like to discuss "what ifs". but ya'all hang on to the past.  the war had been over for 78 years when I was born.

[SHOOTALL]

What if the South had more weapons and materials , factories ? The north may have lost , look at numbers killed in action . The South held its own with way less for a long time. What if the South had not left Va. ? There would have been no Gettysburg . That alone could have changed the war .

[Ga.windbreak]

Mr. windbreak.   you were the first to say that some of you were bitter. check your early post.
I've known all my life why the war was fought, but when it comes up a reb will shake his finger at me and accuse me of thinking that the war is all about slavery. in 41 years down here I've met maybe 5 rebs that would discuss how the direction of the war might have changed if the south had a transporation system or access to more arms like the north
the south was not without genious or brave men. look at the hunley.
I like to discuss "what ifs". but ya'all hang on to the past.  the war had been over for 78 years when I was born.

My post was not a personal afront to any member here just a general statement yours, on the other hand, was calling out a indivual poster. As one of the two mods of this forum I will not 1. argue this point or 2. allow it to continue!

You, sir, have been warned! Drop it now!

[BUGEYE]

Mr. windbreak.   you were the first to say that some of you were bitter. check your early post.
I've known all my life why the war was fought, but when it comes up a reb will shake his finger at me and accuse me of thinking that the war is all about slavery. in 41 years down here I've met maybe 5 rebs that would discuss how the direction of the war might have changed if the south had a transporation system or access to more arms like the north
the south was not without genious or brave men. look at the hunley.
I like to discuss "what ifs". but ya'all hang on to the past.  the war had been over for 78 years when I was born.

My post was not a personal afront to any member here just a general statement yours, on the other hand, was calling out a indivual poster. As one of the two mods of this forum I will not 1. argue this point or 2. allow it to continue!

You, sir, have been warned! Drop it now!

okay mr. windbreak sir.  as usual ya'all get your panties in a wad and won't discuss anything unless it is swinging your way.  I did not call anyone a name. I poinnted out his attitude.  If you really read my posts you would see that I am on the side of the south.  I really think the south would have won with the same logistics as the north.
but since you are a mod I have to do your bidding and stop posting.    wow, I wish I had the power to shut up people who don't agree with me.

[Ga.windbreak]

Did I say stop posting, no. Am I the one who is unwilling to move on NO Am I the one being sarcastic, again NO.

You know exactly what you are doing and so do I. If you want to continue to debate good but drop the sarcasism and name calling or else.

BTW I could care less what your feelings are about the South are, right or wrong, good or bad! Its your sarcastic and combative attitude that I question and will not tolerate.

[subdjoe]

I went back over my posts and there is nothing there to warrent your warning.
I'll pray for you that you might replace the hate with tolerance and find peace.

I had called you to task, but edited out that part, in my response to you after you told SBG "You are a bitter man still fighting the war."   So at least one who is not a mod here saw at least one of your comments as somewhat insulting to someone. 

[BUGEYE]

SDJ, why did GW even mention that people were bitter.  I thought as a mod, his job was to keep bitterness out.
as far as my cousin, I am not bitter, I'm not sad.  it was just war.  my wife and I walked around andersonville with a drawing of the prison from that time.  it's just another piece of history.
If your ever there again, my cousin was Joshua Ramey.  he's in the book and his grave was right next to the road.
and no, I don't think southerners are barbarians. I hate it that this all happened.
so I'll apologize and say no more.

[SHOOTALL]

I guess we now see why its hard to have thoughts on yankees 

[Ga.windbreak]

SDJ, why did GW even mention that people were bitter.  I thought as a mod, his job was to keep bitterness out.
as far as my cousin, I am not bitter, I'm not sad.  it was just war.  my wife and I walked around andersonville with a drawing of the prison from that time.  it's just another piece of history.
If your ever there again, my cousin was Joshua Ramey.  he's in the book and his grave was right next to the road.
and no, I don't think southerners are barbarians. I hate it that this all happened.
so I'll apologize and say no more.

As will I, you have my apology. For the record, thanks for your prayers but you mis judge me if you think I "Hate". I have little time left and none of it to be wasted on hate.

You are in my prayers!

[BUGEYE]

G.W.  I apologize.  I really would like to hear some Ideas about what it might have been like if the south had won.
would we be one country? two?  how long would it have taken to end slavery? would yankees have immigrated south like I did?  or vice-versa?  a million things I would like to know.

[subdjoe]

G.W.  I apologize.  I really would like to hear some Ideas about what it might have been like if the south had won.
would we be one country? two?  how long would it have taken to end slavery? would yankees have immigrated south like I did?  or vice-versa?  a million things I would like to know.

Two nations, as all the deep south wanted was to go its own way.  Note that VA, NC, TN, and AR didn't leave the Union until after Honest Abe issued orders for them to raise troops to invade the lower south, so they likely would have stayed with the north. 

Slavery was at the balance point of becoming uneconomical.  It was declining in the upper south through both social and economic pressure.  It was less expensive to pay an Irishman fifty cents a day than to feed, clothe, and provide shelter and medicine for a slave.  Those same things were starting to put pressure on the slave owners in the lower south.   Somehow all the other western nations managed to end slavery without a war, there is no need to suppose that it would have been any different here. 

Immigration happens.  It depends on lots of things.

More interesting would be speculation on how both nations would be now if the 600,000+ in uniform hadn't been killed.  Or if the 1.25 million 'excess deaths' in the civilian population hadn't happened during that 4 year period.  And if the federal scorched earth policy hadn't stripped the south of almost all industry, down to the village blacksmith level.

[SHOOTALL]

Many Southerners freeded their slaves before going to war , Many don't realize Lincon freed slaves in the South not all of America. Remember below the Mason - Dixon line was slavery and several northern states were part below the line. I think that slavery would have gone away in a more peaseful mannor.
 Two nations most likely as the South was not invading the north to force there way , they wanted out.
It would have been interesting to see how the South would have invested its wealth had it not been used for war or taken by the north. Al;so it would be interesting where the South would sell raw materials or where the north would buy them . Had they not traded they may very well could have priced themselves out of the markets of Eourpe and others.
 When WW1 started it would have been a stress on the Two Americas and WW2 may have forced a reunion who knows . Seperate nither would have been as strong . Look at unions had the north not been checked by the right to work South would they destoried the economy ? Had the South not had northern unions what wages would they be making in the South and where would safety be ?

[subdjoe]

 When WW1 started it would have been a stress on the Two Americas and WW2 may have forced a reunion who knows . Seperate nither would have been as strong . Look at unions had the north not been checked by the right to work South would they destoried the economy ? Had the South not had northern unions what wages would they be making in the South and where would safety be ?

Re: WWI. We have no idea what world history would have been like if the deep south had been allowed to leave in peace.  Maybe the events leading to WWI would not have happened.  Or it may have come sooner.  Who knows. Would the US have been weaker?  Maybe, but it would still have had a strong industrial and financial base, as well as natural resources. 

[Gary G]

Many Southerners freeded their slaves before going to war , Many don't realize Lincon freed slaves in the South not all of America. Remember below the Mason - Dixon line was slavery and several northern states were part below the line. I think that slavery would have gone away in a more peaseful mannor.
 Two nations most likely as the South was not invading the north to force there way , they wanted out.
It would have been interesting to see how the South would have invested its wealth had it not been used for war or taken by the north. Al;so it would be interesting where the South would sell raw materials or where the north would buy them . Had they not traded they may very well could have priced themselves out of the markets of Eourpe and others.
 When WW1 started it would have been a stress on the Two Americas and WW2 may have forced a reunion who knows . Seperate nither would have been as strong . Look at unions had the north not been checked by the right to work South would they destoried the economy ? Had the South not had northern unions what wages would they be making in the South and where would safety be ?

Shootall, those are interesting questions.

Al;so it would be interesting where the South would sell raw materials or where the north would buy them .

The Confederate constitution called for low tariffs, basically free trade. Probably Europe would have removed their retaliatory tariffs making southern exports more profitable. Imports would have come in through southern ports at lower prices which would have hurt the north's highly profitable industrial base along with Lincoln's support base. IMO, this was the cause of the war. Wars are rarely fought for ideological reasons.

When WW1 started it would have been a stress on the Two Americas and WW2 may have forced a reunion who knows

WWI was a European war that became Wilson's war. Probably America would have stayed out as most Americans had desired. In that case, there would not have been a Hitler or WWII. The war had  about reached exhaustion stage when Wilson entered. The Treaty of Versailles guided by Wilson made it impossible for Germany and resulted in the hyperinflation of the Wiemar Republic. In their desperation, the looked to Hitler to free them.

Seperate nither would have been as strong

That might not be so bad. It is a fact that weaker nations are involved in fewer wars. Wars impoverish the people.

Had the South not had northern unions what wages would they be making in the South

Labor is a scarce resource. It's price, as in all scarce resources, is a function of supply and demand. Wages would not have been much different.

[BUGEYE]

the union over at eastern airlines kept our pay good at delta.
other than that,I'm not a big union man.

[SHOOTALL]

That was my point unions help with wages to a point.

[JimP.]

Spanky, you wonder why some  are still bitter, and cant let go. That is understandable due to the way the history has been re written by the "winners". Also remember, the South is still being "Occupied" after all these years since the conflict has been over. My family in Alabama had its land stolen by the "Carpetbaggers" in the time  (1870's) of turmoil after the war  was over. JimP.

[BlkHawk73]

As a man born and raised in the Northeast, I find statements such as "Damn Yankee", or threads with titles such as "War of Northern Aggression" just as offensive as a southern man would find the terms like "Ignorant Southerner", or "War of Southern Stupidity" to be.

Kind of thought we were all Americans...  Personally I judge someone by their thoughts and actions, not their geographical location, or the actions of relatives 150 years ago.

Larry

 BINGO!   Then again, coming here amongst a bunch of Southern folks and asking for the "truth" is like asking a bunch of Ford employees what's the best vehicle to buy.  You'll get one side and it may or may not be the facts.    The whole anti-north thing that still exists makes as much sense as everyone hating anyone from a foreign country moving to the is country when in fact the VAST majority of citizens here are of immigrant decent.   Hate of the past shouldn't equate to hate of the current unless there's a great deal of narrow mindedness and ignorance.  Having Native American in my family tree should I hate any and all 'white men"?    Same mentality.

[Ga.windbreak]

As a man born and raised in the Northeast, I find statements such as "Damn Yankee", or threads with titles such as "War of Northern Aggression" just as offensive as a southern man would find the terms like "Ignorant Southerner", or "War of Southern Stupidity" to be.

Kind of thought we were all Americans...  Personally I judge someone by their thoughts and actions, not their geographical location, or the actions of relatives 150 years ago.

Larry

 BINGO!   Then again, coming here amongst a bunch of Southern folks and asking for the "truth" is like asking a bunch of Ford employees what's the best vehicle to buy.  You'll get one side and it may or may not be the facts.    The whole anti-north thing that still exists makes as much sense as everyone hating anyone from a foreign country moving to the is country when in fact the VAST majority of citizens here are of immigrant decent.   Hate of the past shouldn't equate to hate of the current unless there's a great deal of narrow mindedness and ignorance.  Having Native American in my family tree should I hate any and all 'white men"?    Same mentality.

I am Southern and also  have an Ex who is of Cherokee desent therefore my children are of mixed blood. I find your flippancy disturbing to say the least! The whole truth is here if you really want to find it. It appears though, to these eyes, you care only for tit for tat thus the finding of the truth is far far from your mind. JMVHO of course!

[SHOOTALL]

I don't see the likeness of a country like the CSA being attacked and brutalized anything like working for Ford but to each their own. Those willing to look past their own prejudices will get to the point where they will see the folks from the South form their opinions from the attitude displayed by some from the north. Same can be said in reverse. It would be better for both to consider what has gone before them and not fall into the same traps. That said a visitor to either place should respect the fact they are visitors and act respectful.

[subdjoe]

 BINGO!   Then again, coming here amongst a bunch of Southern folks and asking for the "truth" is like asking a bunch of Ford employees what's the best vehicle to buy.  You'll get one side and it may or may not be the facts.    The whole anti-north thing that still exists makes as much sense as everyone hating anyone from a foreign country moving to the is country when in fact the VAST majority of citizens here are of immigrant decent.   Hate of the past shouldn't equate to hate of the current unless there's a great deal of narrow mindedness and ignorance.  Having Native American in my family tree should I hate any and all 'white men"?    Same mentality.

You mean as opposed to what you get regurgitated from the 5th grade history books by the Lincoln apologists?  As I've said before, I'm a native of CA, so I have no dog in the hunt.  Other than that as I read more and more of the history of our Republic, the more I see that what gets taught in school and portrayed in mass media is heavily biased to exalting the north and belittling the south. 

Was slavery THE reason the southern states left the union?  No.  It was one of several. But that isn't what gets taught until you reach the 200, or maybe 300, level classes in college.   Oh, mention is made of some of the tariff laws, but nothing is said of the economic impact they had on the south.  Or how they favored the north.  Or how much of the federal revenue came from the south to be used to support infrastructure in the north - which worked to enhance the wealth of northern industrial and financial interests, often to the detriment of the south.

Nor is mention made that the slave trade was mostly a northern institution.  We read of the ships being loaded in Africa, then blacks sold in Charleston, Atlanta, etc. But we don't read that those ships were built in northern yards, crewed by northern men, financed by northern money, carried trade goods and rum produced by northern factories and distilleries.   

We need to know ALL our history, not just the 5th grade stuff that northern apologists spew.

[Pass Lake]

Please tell me the federal statute that says southern states may not publish their state history or state school test.

[SHOOTALL]

Don't know about a statute but to recieve Federal funding the state will use the approved books . I would think anyone interested in Govt. would already know and understand how things work. Why pass a law ? Follow the money if you want to see how things work !

[Pass Lake]

To my understanding, Texas, which is a southern state, plays a major role in what is printed in history textbooks.  California and Texas are the largest buyers of high school textbooks.  Texas has a state board which sets standards and approves the "tone" of textbooks.  If the textbook companies want to sell books in Texas, the follow their guidelines.  It is the Texas money trail.  If there is a federal law as one poster stated, I would like to know about that law.

[SHOOTALL]

Maybe with regard to math , geo , and such Texas migh influence But some how I just don't see how with Virginia History as taught in the 4th and 7th grades if memory serves me .

[Pass Lake]

"Our Virginia: Past and Present" is a 4th grade history textbook written by Joy Masoff and used in Virginia public schools.  She is a textbook author and has published a number of school books.  There didn't seem to be any Federal approval for her book to be used. It received approval by just the state of Virginia. 

[SHOOTALL]

If federal money was used and it most likely was you can bet it met certian frderal guide lines .