Author Topic: Steep learning Curve, Contender questions (Read 1614 times)

smong2000 · « **on:** December 24, 2010, 10:22:23 AM »

Just got a new to me .30 Herrett barrel, it came with some brass, dies and loaded ammo.

First problem was stuck barrel, researched on this site, discovered it had a 1 piece locking lug, switched it out with the 2 piece from my other barrel, ground down the back until it worked -problem solved. Now I need to get another split lug from TC.

Second problem is the ammo wouldn't fire, hammer hit but no dent on primer, slammed the barrel closed 3x on each round, problem solved.

Questions are;

Is the firing problem because the neck is not set back enough and I'm crush fitting the case by slamming? Is that odd if the ammo was working with the barrel in another frame? How do I decide how far back is right, just go a bit at a time until they work or bottom out my die to the holder? Can I go too far?

The barrel seems pretty loose compared to my other but tightens up when closed. Should I get an oversized pivot pin for it? Will that screw up my other tight barrel?

Thanks everyone and Merry Christmas!

MePlat · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24, 2010, 12:00:53 PM »

Use David D's way

Dezynco · « **Reply #2 on:** December 24, 2010, 05:19:26 PM »

Sounds like a lock up problem. You probably need to polish the sides and tops of the locking bolts a little more. If they do not fully engage, the gun will not fire.

Remember you're not GRINDING, just polishing. I use a hard stone and oil. Believe it or not, this tends to be a common problem on some of the older barrels.

David D. · « **Reply #3 on:** December 24, 2010, 05:25:10 PM »

Frame to barrel gap can vary between frames and barrels. When shooting reloads loaded for a set up then switching frames can change headspace in the break actions resulting in hard to close or easy close and misfires. I myself like to take a filler gauge and determine the frame to barrel gap. If my frame to barrel gap is .004 then I want my cartridge to protrude from the barrel .003. Doesn't matter if I,m shooting a rimmed, semi rimmed or rimless cartridge I still headspace off of the shoulder. Not having a proper headspace can effect accuracy.

Hopalong7 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 25, 2010, 01:39:02 AM »

Add together Meplat and David's suggestions and you have mine exactly.

smong2000 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 25, 2010, 02:33:20 AM »

Ok I think I've got the gist of the headspacing. Thanks

For my misfiring, the action was locked up tight and the hammer was striking, sometimes lightly denting the primer. I think that means my lugs are OK. The only grinding I did was on the back of the lugs to shorten them slightly so I could open the action. I polished up the top and bottom with a stone like advised.

Now I'm looking to resolve (or accept) the looseness issue. I'm thinking of an oversize pin but worried that will screw up my other barrel and frame. I guess after I bench shoot it, I'll know if it is a problem.

MePlat · « **Reply #6 on:** December 25, 2010, 03:24:05 AM »

use David D's way

Dezynco · « **Reply #7 on:** December 25, 2010, 04:13:25 AM »

Quote

the action was locked up tight and the hammer was striking, sometimes lightly denting the primer

I still say it's a simple lock up problem. You might need to polish the lugs a bit more.

Quote

I think that means my lugs are OK. The only grinding I did was on the back of the lugs to shorten them slightly so I could open the action.

Don't grind anything off!!! Just polish so that they snap into place. The locking bolts/lugs must fully trip the interlock safety for the hammer to fall with full force.

Quote

One can make a " mountain out of a mole hill" if they persist on complicating things when they should be left simple.

+1

The barrel to frame gap, hinge pin and shoulder position of the cartridge is USUALLY a "fine tuning" issue. The gun should fire, especially if some of the ammo worked on another frame. Granted there are variances from one frame to another, but not usually enough to cause any major issues. I've fine tuned 3 G2's and an Encore, but the guns were firing OK before. I had a problem with my G2's not cracking Large Rifle primers so I loaded with Large pistol instead - until I purchased a heavier hammer spring. As I said, these were all fine tuning issues. Once you get the locking bolts engaged fully into the frame, she'll go bang reliably. I've done this a dozen times when fitting an older barrel to a G2 frame, if the bolts don't engage, the gun will go click.

Keith L · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2010, 04:23:29 AM »

Don't get to carried away with the "snake oil" out there that promises to make your guns shoot better. The only impact most have is to lighten your wallet.

David D. · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2010, 05:59:09 AM »

Quote from: Dezynco on December 25, 2010, 04:13:25 AM

The barrel to frame gap, is USUALLY a "fine tuning" issue. The gun should fire, especially if some of the ammo worked on another frame.

But not always! A cartridge designed to headpace off of the shoulder, which someone correct me if I,m wrong such as the Herrett rounds this can be a big issue! A few .001 of an inch can make a huge difference. Then also ever reloading manual I've ever read stated never use loads work in one gun in another!

A pure wildcat, there are no factory loads available for the .30 Herrett. It is formed simply by setting the shoulder back on standard .30-30 brass, then trimming to an overall length of 1.60 inches. Even though forming the round is straightforward, however, there are critical aspects to the process. Where to put the shoulder is the most critical of these.

Even though it is a rimmed cartridge, the .30 Herrett must headspace on the shoulder. If the shoulder is set back too far, cases invariably suffer head separations, sometimes as soon as the second firing. Shoulders set too far forward will not allow the Contender action to lock up properly. This can result in poor accuracy, no ignition or inability to close the action at all. Decent accuracy and case life is obtained only when the cartridge fully and snugly fits the chamber. Typically, best accuracy comes with fully fire-formed cases and neck sizing.

The correct case-forming techniques are carefully spelled out in several places, including the Hornady Reloading Handbook, the free load data brochure put out by Thompson Center and elsewhere. That being the case, I won't go into extreme detail here, but the basic process is to very gradually adjust your sizing die downwards during the forming operation until the gun just barely closes on a sized case. Because no two chambers are alike, especially for wildcat calibers, you should never use ammo that was loaded for other .30 Herrett barrels. If you own more than one Herrett barrel, you should size, load and mark ammo specifically for each. Even a separate set of dies for each barrel wouldn't be out of line.

MePlat · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2010, 06:11:06 AM »

David D's way is correct

David D. · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2010, 07:14:31 AM »

I also have been reloading and shooting wildcats for 30 plus years in TC's. If I read the first post correct it concerned shooting another's brass and loads in his TC. And I still say the headspace is not correct for his frame and barrel or he wouldnt have to crush it three times to get it to fire. And yes I do understand about using the rifling and bullet to hold brass for fireforming, done it for years. I also know if not headspaced proper one will most certainly experience misfires. Lets say one has .007 frame to barrel gap and headspaces .003 to .004 below the end of the barrel then that gives one .010 to .011 which can cause problems. Excessive headspace will cause a lockup problem also creating misfires. Having to crush the case three times to get the firearm to fire certainly tells me that's one heck of a crush fit. What works well for me is a fit where my TC closes with little to no effort and gos bang with only one effort!

MePlat · « **Reply #12 on:** December 25, 2010, 07:34:51 AM »

Removed

David D. · « **Reply #13 on:** December 25, 2010, 08:24:22 AM »

Hoping not to sound argumentative, but we all know most TC's have a Frame to barrel gap some more or less than others. Of the 17 I have all do have some gap. Why then would one want to make the gap wider by going .003 to .004 lower than the end of the barrel. Like I said not being argumentative or disrespectful, always willing to learn? Just makes more since to MY way of thinking to fill the gap, not make it wider leading to more stretching of the brass during firing and over working the brass, and in some cases could lead to case seperation.

MePlat · « **Reply #14 on:** December 25, 2010, 08:40:39 AM »

Removed

David D. · « **Reply #15 on:** December 25, 2010, 10:27:38 AM »

No Sir, I haven't tried your way. No disrespect intended but I really cant see the benefit in sizing my brass shorter than my chamber knowing after firing its going to stretch more than it has to, than if I size it to fit my chamber plus frame gap. As far as case separation if one does his case inspection before reloading he should, I say should avoid most case separations from happening as most stretching will leave a visible ring, or in most cases can be felt with a hooked sharp point. Now as far as a split neck here and there I have had a few. A clear indication that that batch of brass has reached its useful life or work hardened brass should have been aneeled. As far as your question about removing your post they are no problem on my part. They are your opinion same as my post are mine and I really cant see them being a problem.

MePlat · « **Reply #16 on:** December 25, 2010, 10:52:37 AM »

Thats the problem with most people they have only tried one thing or one way to do things and then all other things are worthless. But, like I have said I have tried different ways including yours and I just prefer my way as a simple quick way. If stretching 3 or 4 thousands is going to cause problems especially after the first shot that completely forms the case to the chamber then setting the dies after the first firing to stop just short of shoulder set back I would say you have a problem elsewhere. Liike bad brass or one is setting the shoulder back after the first fireing and are still doing it on the subsequent loadings too.
Anyway he can do it your way I don't care. I really don't know why I responded to his post to begin with.
I guess just wanted to help.

David D. · « **Reply #17 on:** December 25, 2010, 11:18:07 AM »

MePlat

I certainly didn't mean to or intend to offend you. After all forums are for discussions and debate. I,m not saying my way is right way, but like you, my way works well for me. And I,m not like most people. I,m always looking for a way to make a gun shoot better! That's the best part of reloading!!!!! There always more than one way to skin a cat!!!!

MePlat · « **Reply #18 on:** December 25, 2010, 11:27:40 AM »

That is.okay. I will gracefully bow out and let you have the.stage. I will just.sit in the audience. I know when to show.the.white.flag of.surrender

smong2000 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 25, 2010, 12:48:20 PM »

GENTLEMEN,

Thank you all for your gracious advice. I certainly welcome multiple points of view and will consider everything as 'information'. Hope no one got upset by the exchanges.
Best Wishes to everyone and Thank You,
Steve

David D. · « **Reply #20 on:** December 25, 2010, 01:51:21 PM »

Quote from: smong2000 on December 25, 2010, 12:48:20 PM

GENTLEMEN,

Thank you all for your gracious advice. I certainly welcome multiple points of view and will consider everything as 'information'. Hope no one got upset by the exchanges.
Best Wishes to everyone and Thank You,
Steve

Not upset on my end. Love to discuss and debate and listen to opinions of others. Like the other gentleman I,m sure I'm also set in my ways.

smong2000 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2010, 03:23:00 AM »

I thought I could give you all some feedback on my results. I can gladly say that both my barrels are now working reliably on the same frame.

and it was an educational journey.

The .35 Rem always was fine but I took a bit off the back of it's locking lug attempting to make the lug work on the .30 Herrett barrel. Never did get it quite right for the Herrett so put it back on the original barrel and it works fine and locks tighter than ever. I spent all week trying to reach T/C and ended up emailing them, still no response so I decided to see what I could do with the 1 piece lug myself knowing it had to be replaced anyway. I succeeded in slicing it down the middle with a precision thin diamond lapidary saw, it took about 3 hrs to cut at 60 rpms -very hard steel. I then used the metallurgy lab equipment and reground the angle to about 5* with a mirror finish and knocked off all the edges. It now locks up like Fort Knox with zero play, engaging straight across 1/2 way up the lug, and releases perfectly. No misfires after snapping dozens of caps on both barrels.

I disassembled all the ammo that was 'long', resized the brass until it just shouldered the chamber (shortened a bit at a time until the rim barely stopped on the chamber/extractor by feel) and tested for function. Had trouble with the measurement technique because the rim thickness on my brass varied quite a bit. I sorted the brass by weight and loaded up an abbreviated 'ladder' for accuracy with the I4227 powder I salvaged. Tomorrow I'll try to get to the range and bench it.