American versus European view on riflescopes

[pastorp]

Do you guys that have hunted or been stationed in Europe believe that it would be fair to say the European mindset is to spend a lot more for optics than your rifle costs?

While most Americans will spend more on the rifle & less on the optics?

I wonder why that is. The night hunting, or they own less rifles on average than we do?

Merry Christmas.

[diggler1833]

Great question, I'm sure that there will be some debate on this.

I'm not very familiar with the spending habits over across the pond, but I will say that quite often, we Americans do skimp on glass for a scoped rifle.  I see quite a few reviews where an optic gets good marks because the glass is relatively clear (so subjective by the way), but absolutely no reliability/durability tests were conducted.  I'd love to see an article sometime where a dozen or so "bargain" optics were put to a box test, followed by an actual measurement of adjustment test (i.e. a 1/4"@100yds optic gets 40 clicks cranked on it and the next shot is measured from the original POA/POI and back again), and a drop test to check how well they will hold zero.

You can find optics that will pass these tests, but more often than not, they will cost as much as a custom rifle.  You can also find qute a few Americans that prefer and will generally only use optics that are this reliable/expensive as well...you just won't find too many on this website.  Try the Sniper's Hide if you want to read a lot more about Schmitt and Bender, US Optics, Nightforce etc...

I've done the cheaper optics route, and what I have to show for it are a bunch of broken scopes that are sitting around the garage in variuos places.  Not one has broken from abuse, but every one of them from repeatedly adjusting them (dialing in elevation/windage, adjusting the AO).


I t

[diggler1833]

Guess I'll have to do more than one post since there is something acting up here.....

.....I think that maybe hunting/shooting costs a lot more generally over in europe than it does here.  I can only speculate on that though.  It would make sense if everything else was more expensive that the gear would be a bit as well.

I'm definitely not saying that everything overseas is made better either.

I guess I'll get my flame-retardant suit out for the upcoming disagreements.

Merry Christmas.

[Lloyd Smale]

one reason is alot of the hunting done over there is in low light and even at night

[BBF]

one reason is alot of the hunting done over there is in low light and even at night

 The deer in Nova Scotia have figured that out as well that walking around during open season is only healthy during darkness.

[Dave in WV]

Two consistant complaints in the Us about Euro scopes are short eye relief and ocular bells so large bolt handles don't clear them if using low (sometimes medium) rings. The closer to your eye the ocular lens is and the larger the ocular lens, the brighter the scope seems. I'm NOT saying euro scopes are not truely brighter, just two things that make optices seem brighter. Look at the old Warsaw Pact Cold War scopes with the rubber ocular extention that touches you. Put one on a $100 scope and instantly it's "brighter" due to less stray light.

[bilmac]

What do we care what Europeans think. We can go hunting almost any time we want all year long. Can they? We can drive to the edge of town and take up our firearm and start hunting. Can they? We have a second ammendment. Do they? Even guys of modest means often own small arsenals. Do they.  A few rich guys who might own one or two guns and hunt a couple days a year knows what is better than a guy who literaly lives with a gun in hand?

Baa Humbug I say.

[Empty Quiver]

I believe Bilmac is headed down the right path. As I understand it hunting is very much a rich mans sport in Europe. The hunt is the thing. Doing the job in style means more than it does here. The hunter doesn't even retain the meat from what little I have read on the subject.

Night hunting is not illegal, and in many areas a suppressor is considered considerate not felonious. The scopes are designed to take advantage of the laws and customs.

What real advantage is there to a "night" scope in a country that outlaws hunting from 1/2hr after sunset till 1/2hr before sunrise? Most hunters are living in rural areas, where lets face it, incomes are less. Hunting comes from a long tradition of subsistance not entertainment. Guns are prized as much as tools as works of art.

So if you are on a limited income and can't even hunt past dusk, why not economise in an area that will not likely affect the outcome of the hunt? Light gathering ability is not related to durability and one can be had without the other if need be, to reduce cost.

Europeans also make and drive cars that generally not suited to American tastes. The roads are narrower fuel is more expensive and the average distances travelled are much less. Not too many areas in Europe like North Dakota, Texas, or California for that matter. Cooper Mini is ridiculious for the Great Plains states. As a Chevy Suburban would be in the streets of Paris.

I think hunters on both continants know what suits the conditions they encounter and gear up accordingly.

[wreckhog]

America: Joe sits on a log at the end of his driveway and pops a doe at 30 yards after 20 minutes of "hunting".

Still in America: Blake goes to a ranch with his Amex card, and sights in his new $500 Remington. The guide takes him in the ATV to a feeder. They sit in the heated blind facing the feeder. Together, they wait for 20 minutes until the buck in the size range that Blake has paid for appears. It is one of 30 staring at them from 20-100 yards away. The guide sets up the video camera, Blake shoots his deer, the guide puts it in the ATV and they are back at the lodge for a late breakfast.

Europe: Sven takes a week and several thousand Euros. He goes to an estate, where he is escorted by a guide all day, every day. They climb all over the estate. By the end of the week, he has shot 3 trophies, selected by the guide at 300+ yards. He reserves the same hunt for next year.

These are the cliches. Not sure how true they are.


I know Americans that take a month each year to shoot prairie dogs. Their scopes cost more than the Jeep that I drive everyday.

[Empty Quiver]

America: Joe sits on a log at the end of his driveway and pops a doe at 30 yards after 20 minutes of "hunting".

Still in America: Blake goes to a ranch with his Amex card, and sights in his new $500 Remington. The guide takes him in the ATV to a feeder. They sit in the heated blind facing the feeder. Together, they wait for 20 minutes until the buck in the size range that Blake has paid for appears. It is one of 30 staring at them from 20-100 yards away. The guide sets up the video camera, Blake shoots his deer, the guide puts it in the ATV and they are back at the lodge for a late breakfast.

Europe: Sven takes a week and several thousand Euros. He goes to an estate, where he is escorted by a guide all day, every day. They climb all over the estate. By the end of the week, he has shot 3 trophies, selected by the guide at 300+ yards. He reserves the same hunt for next year.

These are the cliches. Not sure how true they are.


I know Americans that take a month each year to shoot prairie dogs. Their scopes cost more than the Jeep that I drive.

I'd like a jeep like that

[Brithunter]

What do we care what Europeans think. We can go hunting almost any time we want all year long. Can they? We can drive to the edge of town and take up our firearm and start hunting. Can they? We have a second ammendment. Do they? Even guys of modest means often own small arsenals. Do they.  A few rich guys who might own one or two guns and hunt a couple days a year knows what is better than a guy who literaly lives with a gun in hand?

Baa Humbug I say.

  Oh how I love the closed mind and view of some    Also I love being regarded as Rich........................... if only it was true  as for hunting well let's see I can only speak of the UK and mainly England but let's start with small game and Rabbits (Bob Tails) well not only is there no season on them they are classed as an agricultural pest, not quite vermin but close, no possession limits and if you shoot clean ones (head shots) then you can also sell them to the Butcher or game dealer.

Deer Stalking (hunting) there is no limit to the amount you can possess and you can also sell Venision again to any outlet. In the last year there has been some changes brought in by Europe about Hygeine and to sell venision now for human consumption you need a Hygiene certificate  never been a problem in the past but thos Eurocrats have to do something to justify their exhobitant pay packets. The only day it's not legal to hunt is Christmas day, Sunday has a few other restrictions but they are not onerous really. No game licence is required in England and Wales. Scotland still retains it for the moment at least but the licence costs about $10 for a year.

As for rifles well my own small collection runs into the dozens  and I am on a very low fixed income. Prices are high here for instance I just brought a tub of H4381SC powder which cost £32 ($52 US). Bullets are equally expensive which is one reason I am shooting my .222 Rem chambered rifle more now as it's cheaper. A box of Remington Express 165 Gr Core-Lockt in .280 cost over $64 US which is a rip off.

The drawbacks are that we have no public land hunting......................... I do my Deer Stalking by the outing or day and pay for it as such my last one was a successful hunt for a Roe Buck last April. Due to other things like Dad being ill and Mother falling and breaking her coller bone and a bone in her groin I have had me shooting severly restricted due to caring for them both.

As for Optics well I try to get the best I can which usually means used for me. Just recently I cquired a Lisenfeld (German) 6x42 Jaguar scope which in my opinion beats the Leupolds I have hands down. I also have a Lisenfeld 3-9x42 and usually have it set on 6x mag but when sighting in for a new load or switching brands of ammo I use it on 9x as recomended and the funny thing is that I don't have to move my head forwards on the stock unlike with the Leuopld Vari X 111 2.5-8 that I have. There is not reason that the American makers cannot use the same quality of glass and coatings but then the prices would be higher and the average American shooter would not buy at those prices. They expect it to cost very little but be as good and that is siimply not going to happen.

[bilmac]

Kinda expected to hear from you Brit Hunter. But truthfully now you got to be a rare exception. And I know I am painting Americans with a broad brush. But in general hunting and shooting are American sports that Europeans are fast forgetting. I'm glad to hear that you do have opportunities to do some hunting in England.

To the question of this thread, I think one big reason why we prefer smaller scopes on this side of the pond is weight. When is the last time you spent a whole day climbing around in mountain terrain. Maybe an American scope isn't absolutely flawless like high end European glass, but if your scope is a 1/100 of a second faster to acquire a target when you mount the rifle, does it take you 1/100 of a second longer to mount the rifle because it is heavier and you are weary from packing it.

And, price is a factor!! I guess each of us has a limit on how much is willing to spend on a hobby. So comparing what you are willing to spend to what I am willing is not really debatable. Actually I'm kind of cheap compared to many, I have lots of other priorities. The real argument should be over what I can buy within my limits. I can buy much more when I buy less expensive scopes. My cheaper scopes do work. They go hunting and seldom fail. The rare times they have failed, it was no big deal because I almost never go hunting without a spare rifle.

 I'm not convinced that an expensive scope will always shoot smaller groups, but if they do it is a very tiny improvement. I have done my share of competative shooting, and what I have done it wouldn't have made much difference if I could have shot a group a 1/10 of an inch smaller. You have to be very good to use that much better accuracy when you are shooting offhand. I don't think I could tell the difference if I was shooting prone. Only bench resters need that kind of precision, but then they are a special class.

[pastorp]

The question was painted with a very broad brush I know. And some American hunters are willing or can afford to buy expensive optics. When I hear the complaints about the cost of a leupold scope and hear the praises about some much cheeper riflescopes I just wonder what the average American mindset is concerning riflescopes for hunting.

I have always felt that leupold was my benchmark in optics. When I balance weight, performance, warranty, eye relief, & quality I am usually most happy with a leupold. However the one feature I do like in European riflescopes that leupold lacks is etched crosshaires. They really are much clearer.

And I, like most of you don't really care what the European mindset is except in how that affects what's available to me in sporting equipment. I also think studying human nature is interesting. I have not lived in the culture I was born & raised in for almost 30 years and I find observing other cultures interesting.

Regards,

[BBF]

somewhat off topic
At least in Germany,peraps in other EU countries as well, Hunting is not considered a Sport but an Art. Very different attitude I'd say.

[pastorp]

Interesting statement scatterbrained. Could you explain in more detail ?

Regards,

[victorcharlie]

That's been my view too.  I've got a Bushnell 4200 on a savage .17 HMR.  Almost without exception, all my rifles wear scopes that cost more than the rifle they are on.

[mcwoodduck]

What do we care what Europeans think. We can go hunting almost any time we want all year long. Can they? We can drive to the edge of town and take up our firearm and start hunting. Can they? We have a second ammendment. Do they? Even guys of modest means often own small arsenals. Do they.  A few rich guys who might own one or two guns and hunt a couple days a year knows what is better than a guy who literaly lives with a gun in hand?

Baa Humbug I say.

Bilmac,
I think the scopes are based on the style of hunting.
Most European hunts are driven.  Be they birds or big game.
You are mostly in a blind and have shooting lanes.  Shots are short and fast in deep forest with low light.
Most european countries tax you on what you own and if you only own one rifle you can spend a few $ on the scope.
Also with the Value added taxing systems scopes cost a lot more when you add 10% at every level of production and sales.
The German glass may be good but I don't think it is that much better than the Leupold, Weaver, or Bushnell scopes made here.
In the 30's and 40's the germans and Hungarians made the best crystal and ground the glass the best.  With lasers and coatings I think it is easy to copy what they had and improve on them.
Most American hunting is either spot and stalk, still hunting, or stand hunting.  Other than dogs being used in the south for deer  and people in the north for drives that are similar to the European driven hunts.
Now on the other side of things we do care what the europens do.  Some of the wako lefties here want to create a value added tax and our scopes too would end up costing as much as the european scopes.  I like the Weaver V and K series an the leupold Var X II scopes.  But I would end up buying some Chinese made POS due to the costs where a $300 scope would then cost $500 to 600 with the Value added taxes.

[charles p]

I can't fathom why any hunter on any continent does not want the best glass he/she can afford on their rifle or in their binocs.  The older I get, the more I appreciate good optics.  One problem I've found, is that some of the best optics are often very heavy.  I've found that 50mm objective lens offer little if any advantage, and a 30mm tube doesn't either. 

[Hit or Miss]

It seems to me that every time I buy a cheaper scope I'm disappointed in it.  One exception is a Centerpoint I put on my CZ 452, it was the only scope I could find that didn't hit the bolt with the power ring and it is not bad at all!  I keep hoping I'll find something under $150 that's worth the money though.

[Brithunter]

Ahhh yes and there is also the dirrefence in style/stance. The Europeans and including a lot of British shooters tend to shoot with a relaxed stance with head held naturally erect and not forced down onto the stock. Probably a result of the driven shooting that formed the lines of the classic British sporting shotgun. One lifts the gun to the shoulder and does not move the head to it.

The same thing happened when they made the stalking rifles. Target shooting is a different game althougher.

As for my being the exception to a degree that is true but I belong to a society that helps to keep the knowledge of the old breechloading guns alive. Many in the society have far greater collections than mine and mine is quite modern in make up compared to theirs. In the club I used to belong to it was the few that only had one or two guns. Most had a dozen or more. A close frined had to sell his firearms only keeping hold of his shotguns a few years ago due to ill health. I do not know if he retains any of his shotgun cllection now as having moved we no longer get to vist like we did. He had a wonderful collection of Browning O/U guns from the Leige Custom shop and also some beautiful guns from some of the better English makers like a late 1800 Live Pigeon gun by E.J. Churchill. Live pigeon was the fore runner of clays and was a gentlemens sport for betting. He also had a Westly Richards muzzle loading shotgun, a high quality fowler by Needler of Hull and a best gun by Wm Powell & Son. His hope was that although he could lay down to shoot shotguns were shot standing and he could continue to shoot a bit but his health has deterioted not improved.

The clubs I belong to now have their core of mulitple gun owners and of course just the occasional shooter. Shooting is a bug and once it bites there really is no cure. A factor that does influence the number owned of course is what your finances can take. It is certainly more expensive here to shoot and own guns  .

[diggler1833]

<-----------------------------one dumb American here who totes around heavy stuff.  Actually work requires that I stay in pretty good shape.  I know that I can't be turning 32 forever, so at some point in my life I know that a lighter option may eventually be the better one.

I don't spend as much as I can on scopes in hopes that it will reduce the size of my groups.  I spend as much as I can on a "quality" optic with a decent track record of proven performance in hopes that my group doesn't shift from one point to another in between shooting sessions, or even worse, during them. 

Of course the advantage of better glass itself goes without saying.

[Guy Pike]

With the availability of servicable hunting rifles in the under $400 dollar range it should be quite easy to achieve the goal of spending more on the scope than the rifle. I for one will swap a Leupold from one rifle to the next and put up with what some would perceive as the "bother" of zeroing the scope to the new rifle. Of course time spent behind the trigger is a drug to me!