load really loooooong 45 LC loads?

[cpileri]

(disclaimer: if this more porperly belongs in a reloading forum, please move or let me knwo and I will repost. thx, C-)

Dear Sirs and Ma'ams,
is it possible/has anyone everdone so successfully loaded really long cases for the 45LC/410 3"chamber barrel, in order to avoid all the blowby and freebore when firing 45LC out of the 45/410 barrel?

I am thinking of mimicking 45LC loads, but using either a 410 case (brass?) or 444 Marlin case, with the bullet sticking out as if it was a wanna-be 45-70 in appearance only.  According to loaddata, and looking for ~10gr Unique loads only to keep the pressures around 410bore levels, Unique powder will give the following velocities and pressures:
_______________________
 45LC: 250gr RNFP  8.1gr Unique 842fps
          285gr cast  9.0gr           924fps and 14K psi
_______________________
444 Marlin:  300gr TC   10gr Unique    1178fps
_______________________
45-70:  426gr cast(*)  10gr Unique   857fps and 12K psi
           400gr  JFNSP   11gr Unique   746fps
(*): dacron filler and 1/4" wad over powder

SO it looks like it can be safely done.  i am not trying to make a magnum superpower load, just a long 45LC load.

I think an overpowder wad and case filler (dacron) should be used between the projectile and the charge, to keep the powder near the primer for reliable ignition.    Also, might I have to reduce the shand of the bullet (make sort of a boattail) to allow it to fit in the case mouth (but leave the bearing surface at .452-.454 diameter to properly engade the rifling and prevent blowby?  That is where my expertise ends.  Anyone have any loads to share.

Background info: As i fired the 45LC (255gr LSWC), it shot straight (although about 18" high at 50 yds, with just the shotgun gold bead sight and aiming over the barrel- another topic for another time)  I noticed a ton of unburned powder down the bore.  I figure alot of powder is blown past the projectile during its ride in the free bore part of the chamber before it engages the rifling.  These loads are designed to be ~950fps from a pistol length barrel, so its a fairly fast powder (i.e. its not so sloooooow burning that it simply isnt consumed.)  Anyway, a long cartridge with a 45LC caliber bullet would eliminate the freebore part of the problem.

Thanks in advance for your expertise.
C-

[quickdtoo]

Do a search for 450 Mongo, it's been discussed hundreds of times here.  

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=450+mongo&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US301&ie=UTF-8

[cpileri]

Here's one I found over at shooting forums (http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=12206&page=2  ):

230 gr RNFMJ .451" Midway bulk bullet, 14.8 gr Unique, CCI Large pistol primer 1420 fps. This is a low pressure case forming load. It shoots into 4" at 100 yards and is quite pleasant to shoot. It is more than enough for a rabbit and is cheap to shoot.

He uses it as a fireforming load for 9.3x74R brass.  But I see it as good enough, actually more powerful than i originally wanted, for what I am after.
I was hoping to avoid buying expensive brass, and the annealing step(s).  I guess i would if I had to.

C-

[cpileri]

I guess nothing is new under the sun!
450 Mongo reading is on the right track for me.  Did find these on the gmdr low velocity pages:

45-70 300gr FPbb  10gr Unuque  1018fps

I'm looking now with hope for someone who has used Unique in 410bore loading.

More to read...
C-

[dpe.ahoy]

I had considered to this as well, using the 444 case it was tight when chambered.  I had picked up some 460 S&W brass to try but never got around to doing so.  DP

[Shu]

Downloaded 460 brass makes more sense to me.

[gjdykeman]

I started reloading in my life for a 410/45LC NEf Surviver. I also had a Comanche pistol. Loaded Mongos and everything else. Some but not a lot of success. I hoped for some  50 to 75y groups. I now try for 410 slugs and long range shot. After  almost three years, they are the same. It is what it is. 25y great. Not a long range project. I use Magteck brass 2-3/4s and 9.3X74R 3" brass fire formed for 410 bore. Many different powders. I now use a generous amount of Trailboss and 41 cal 210g copper plated and the 3" brass shells. The brass shells can be reloaded many times. The cost is about 1.00 a shell initially. Once used in the 45LC chamber, never to be used in the 410 again. I even used 777 in the comanche. IMPRESSIVE at the range but not accurate. I use the Tammer as a camp gun. Sold the NEF and the Comanche, bought a 45LC carbine. Whoosh, that's a gun.   

[cpileri]

thanks all.
The 460 brass wouldnt be long enough to take care of my original goal of taking up all the freebore in the long chamber.
It looks like my best bet is to fireform the 9.3x74R brass, and load the 255gr lead SWC backwards into the casemouth (probably).  take up space in the case between powder charge and projectile with overpowder wad and filler, and i may have to re-think my choice of unique as powder. 
but so far, after doing alengthy search on just about everywhere i can think of, this seems like the best way to elimminate the freebore.

I sure do appreciate all who posted, and welcome any more replies!

C-

[cwlongshot]

Please be very careful and read up on the use of fillers in light loads with a large case. It can be VERY dangerous!!!! Wrong fillers can badly foul your bore. Cards and wads can "ring" your barrel/chamber. Light loads with fast powders can cause detonation effectively blowing up you and your gun. I used to use Granix (sp?)shot buffer as a filler.  I got bad fouling and poor accuracy after just a few shots. It was hard to clean out. I remember my own father using "cream of wheat" as a filler. That sure smelled funny! No damageto him. But we now now that the use of heavy fillers such as this are also very bad as they add weight as if a heavier bullet was being used  

Another time I watched a fellow shooter blow up a very nice S&W with very light charges of fast powder. I remember looking at him tipping the muzzle up and bouncing the but on the bench before every shot. A bit later I herd an odd sounding bang and looked to see the smoking remains of a once fine gun. He was lucky and didn't get too hurt.

IMHO FAR greater issues than freebore "problem" that may not be a problem at all.

JMHO, I would hate to hear of someone getting hurt for not knowing all the implications of that decision. Personally I would not do this.

CW

[petemi]

CW, some pretty good experienced advice.  Thank you.  I only load by the book because I don't know enough to experiment.

Pete

[Shu]

Free bore is not really a problem. There is enough cartridges usage to prove it isn't. 38 special in a 357 max. etc.

If you are a novice to reloading experimentation is something you should run away from. Those ballistic people like speer, lyman, etc have the equipment for it.

[Macphoto]

This may be off base, but your unburned powder may be due to not having a heavy enough crimp.  With all that empty space, the primer alone may not be able to get to a pressure level that will sustain the powder burn.  Example I have personally witnessed was a 44mag in Contender.  Case was not crimped.  the 2400 powder got hot enough to melt, but not burn as it came out the barrel, cooling as it went and looked like cornflakes, flat, but wider than bore diameter.  Generous roll crimp on the remaining loads and burn was clean and accurate.

[Blackhawker]

Please be very careful and read up on the use of fillers in light loads with a large case. It can be VERY dangerous!!!! Wrong fillers can badly foul your bore. Cards and wads can "ring" your barrel/chamber. Light loads with fast powders can cause detonation effectively blowing up you and your gun. I used to use Granix (sp?)shot buffer as a filler.  I got bad fouling and poor accuracy after just a few shots. It was hard to clean out. I remember my own father using "cream of wheat" as a filler. That sure smelled funny! No damageto him. But we now now that the use of heavy fillers such as this are also very bad as they add weight as if a heavier bullet was being used  

Another time I watched a fellow shooter blow up a very nice S&W with very light charges of fast powder. I remember looking at him tipping the muzzle up and bouncing the but on the bench before every shot. A bit later I herd an odd sounding bang and looked to see the smoking remains of a once fine gun. He was lucky and didn't get too hurt.

IMHO FAR greater issues than freebore "problem" that may not be a problem at all.

JMHO, I would hate to hear of someone getting hurt for not knowing all the implications of that decision. Personally I would not do this.

CW

CW,
Do you know of any actual evidence of chamber ringing, personally?  I've heard a lot of it, but no one has ever really shown or come up with actual real evidence of it.  I once posted a thread here on it.  If I can find it, I'll post it.  In any case, I went as far as calling Lyman about it being that they discontinued posting loads using wads or fillers.  The answer I received was that they discontinued these loads because people were "cramming" the case full of the wad like a muzzle loader and not because of ringing.  I've also read many other articles that suggest ringing as a myth. 
Just wondering if maybe you've ever seen evidence of it etc.  I'm still in search of real evidence.  I've been wary of using wads in my 45-70 ever since I'd heard of ringing.

By the way, I agree fully with you on using caution with large capacity cartridges and light loads.  It can be dangerous if one doesn't know what they're doing or what to expect.  I personally don't like that "tilt the gun back" theory.  I too have seen people do that and I tend to shoot as far away from them as possible when at the range.   

[cpileri]

Thanks for the admonitions.
if I do this, I am looking to be very cautious:  weighing wad/filler so as to not exceed load data, example: if a safe and light starting load is 10gr Unique with a 300gr projectile; a 255 bullet leaves me 45 grains of total weight for the wads/filler.  

I will admit that I am still reading up on the seeming paradoxical 'benefits' of the overpowder wad; on the one hand necessary to get ignition and avoid a secondary detonation effect; on the other hand the wad pressure can cause a presure spike on its own.

I am hoping to find the magic bullet, pun intended, where someone just stuck a full-caliber projectile onto/into the top of a 410bore shell and found it to be safe and accurate.  Wishful thinking, so far.

Yes, i am still in the information gathering phase.

C-

[Blackhawker]

A thought came to mind:  It's too bad there isn't a seating die that can seat a bullet way down to normal seating range of the 45 Colt but inside one of those long brass cartridges.  This eliminates the use of wads, ensures that there is not TOO much open space in the cartridge AND, when fired, the bullet would have to travel through the brass, rather than the open chamber space of the 410 length area, hence avoiding bullet yaw and further inaccuracies. 

Just an idea but if someone were to come up with a die like that I bet there would be profit in it.

[gcrank1]

Charlie Dell and Wayne Schwartz, of the American Single Shot Rifle Assoc. (ASSRA) did extensive tests and have documented some of it in the Assra publication, The Single Shot Journal, and a book they co-authored (title escapes me at the moment). They could, and did, repeat the effects. After reading some of this, I decided I would no longer use a powder positioning wad.

The idea of deeper seating wont work because of the interior taper of the case walls, gradually getting thicker as it goes toward the base. Pressure also spikes as the volumn is decreased, sometimes very abruptly, and if one were to try this idea all loading/pressure data in the manuals would no longer apply.

[Blackhawker]

Charlie Dell and Wayne Schwartz, of the American Single Shot Rifle Assoc. (ASSRA) did extensive tests and have documented some of it in the Assra publication, The Single Shot Journal, and a book they co-authored (title escapes me at the moment). They could, and did, repeat the effects. After reading some of this, I decided I would no longer use a powder positioning wad.

The idea of deeper seating wont work because of the interior taper of the case walls, gradually getting thicker as it goes toward the base. Pressure also spikes as the volumn is decreased, sometimes very abruptly, and if one were to try this idea all loading/pressure data in the manuals would no longer apply.

So I take it that the article did not support the use of powder positioning wads?  Is that why you quit using them?  Ironically, I just read an article (I'll have to look it up) that supported the use of wads for accuracy in revolver loads.  I was actually going to try them out, especially in my 38-40.  Now, maybe not.   

Good thinking gcrank, seating deep, deep, deep as I mentioned above is probably a BAD idea.  Pressures would surely go all over the place and not only compromise accuracy but would become a hazard as well. 

[cpileri]

hmm...
Is 10gr Unique bulky enough to not need the op wad and fillers?

That would simplify things.  Just load the bullet and go?

Because 10gr of unique is safe in 45LC, 444 Marlin, and 45-70 with bullets from 250-400+gr.  So i am thinking that powder charge is fine in a 410/45LC chambered gun; its the longer case and empty space that is the issue.

C-

[quickdtoo]

CW's words of caution are thought provoking, so I did a quick internet search, the links below are two different incidents, the second is reported by the shooter himself, possibly caused by an overcharge on a Dillon 550, very scary! 

Tim

http://www.vincelewis.net/44magboom.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/159999-s-w-625-jm-catastrophic-failure-accident.html

[gcrank1]

The referenced research was into the chamber ringing question, not accuracy. Their conclusion, and thus mine, is that a ringed chamber isnt worth the risk, and there are other ways to get consistent powder positioning; ie, the orienting the powder within the case before firing. If you maintain consistent powder positioning and minimize ignition and velocity variations the accuracy should be similar to loads using the questionable wads. Those boys are/were shooters (C.Dell has now died), not just theorists, and you could count on their stuff.

[cwlongshot]

CW,
Do you know of any actual evidence of chamber ringing, personally?  I've heard a lot of it, but no one has ever really shown or come up with actual real evidence of it.  I once posted a thread here on it.  If I can find it, I'll post it.  In any case, I went as far as calling Lyman about it being that they discontinued posting loads using wads or fillers.  The answer I received was that they discontinued these loads because people were "cramming" the case full of the wad like a muzzle loader and not because of ringing.  I've also read many other articles that suggest ringing as a myth.  
Just wondering if maybe you've ever seen evidence of it etc.  I'm still in search of real evidence.  I've been wary of using wads in my 45-70 ever since I'd heard of ringing.

By the way, I agree fully with you on using caution with large capacity cartridges and light loads.  It can be dangerous if one doesn't know what they're doing or what to expect.  I personally don't like that "tilt the gun back" theory.  I too have seen people do that and I tend to shoot as far away from them as possible when at the range.  

Blackhawk,
No I have not personally seen it happen. But I have spoken to folks who have and I have personally seen two barrels so effected.
 Like others here I too have read of it from a number of trusted authors. Based on these things, I made my decision the "benefits" couldn't come close to the risks. Personally, I feel this is an EASY decision these days with the advent of large bulky powders like XMP5744 and Trailboss. They are expressly designed to work in cavernous cases such as these.

Guys, keep one thing in site, by and large these calibers are or where originally designed for BLACK powder. We know blk powder is vastly different from smokeless and required large cases for the bulky and relatively lo powdered powder. Using these calibers with most smokeless powders is just fine. Just when folks try to "reinvent" blk powder loads using fast burning pistol powders, do the problems start.
 I too like to experiment too, I must say I like the idea of making such a chambering. Just do so safely and with the knoledge of what others have experienced before you doing or attempting the same things. Read all you can, speak to and listen to folks who have been there and done that. Then weigh the facts and move on with knoledge and confidence that what your doing won't hurt you or someone near you when you touch off a shot. I would genuinely bye saddened if I herd of someone here getting hurt and I hadn't offered my experiences to try to assist them. I mean isn't that why we have these boards, to swap experiences and learn things? I know I learn things here almost every day!

Peace and a happy new year to all,
CW

[cpileri]

is there a website that lists powders in order of absolute or relative 'bulkiness'?

My thought is to take that list, and cross-reference it with accepted safe loads from published data (I have a barnes manual, etc) for these long, cavernous cases (444 marlin, 45-70, others approximating or larger than 3" 410bore cases) using a ~250gr projectile; and load that.

We could just as easily call them 'reduced' or 'youth' or 'wimpy' loads for the large case, as opposed to a 'really loooong 45LC' load; either way, it will serve my purpose.

I am willing to change powders, forego fillers and wads, etc- just want a long case and full bore diameter projectile at ~45LC power levels.  Safety is primary, and i wont do this if it cant be done safely.

Any such list exist?

C-

[Blackhawker]

gcrank:
Thanks for the added info and clarification above!

CW:
Thank you too for the info on ringing.  I've always been worried about it in my BC 45-70.  I usually use polyfiber wads with my loads of 2400 since it's not a very bulky powder.  I can use IMR 4198 but that powder isn't as accurate with the particular load.  I suppose I can search and play around with more powders.

As to your comments about old black powder cartridges being used with fast, non-bulky smokeless powders; I couldn't agree more to all on your words of caution.  Typically, when I load large volume cartridges such as the 45-70 with a non bulky powder, I do some measuring.  How do I do this??
I'll take a cartridge, say a 45-70, and measure and mark exactly where the base of the bullet will be once seated.  Then I'll fill the cartridge with my desired load of whatever powder I'm using.  I then take an unfolded paper clip in which I've bent the end into an "L" shape (almost hook-like).  With the cartridge held vertical, the charge of powder level, and with ample lighting, I'll slowly move the paper clip down into the cartridge until I visually see the bottom of the "L" shape touch the powder.  Holding the paper clip exactly at that place, I mark the paper clip as to where the end of the cartridge mouth is, hence, marking the depth of the powder in the cartridge. From there I determine the distance between the seated bullet and the top of the charge.  If the powder is NOT more than 50% of the remaining volume of the cartridge AFTER the bullet is seated, I don't use the load and search for other data OR I have been using the fiber wads, which maybe I'll stop doing so. 
Anyway, I hope that made sense.  The way I see it, if the remaining space in a cartridge (after a bullet is seated) is less than 50% filled, then when the cartridge is laying in the horizontal plane as when chambered and ready to fire, it is highly likely that the primer flash hole is even with or above the powder charge and a BAD recipe for powder detonation. 

Tim, thanks for posting those links.  There is enough there to scare the bajeezes out of all of us and prevent us from getting sloppy or careless at the loading bench, that's for sure!   
 
In the second link, it is mentioned that the problem could have been a double charge.  Being a 45 ACP, I just don't see that as being the case.  While a double charge in such a small cartridge could bring on some incredible pressure, I just don't think that one round like that could do it.  Additionally, I'd imagine that 11 grains of any powder would overflow the case of a 45 ACP and be easily seen by the loader.  I tend to think that the author is incorrect and that this was probably an under charge.
 
As listed in the link, the intended charge was 5.5 grains.  It is very easy to have a progressive loader mischarge a load, especially if perhaps powder baffles are not in place etc.  I don't know off hand what the minimum load for Universal is in a 45, but I can't imagine it being much more than a grain or so less.  With small charges, it is very easy to make a VERY large percentage of error in a load yet only being a half a grain off from a target load.  This is one reason why I've stopped using progressive loading on my loader and I actually weigh each and every charge.  It takes me a longer time to load but I know exactly what is going in every one of my loads, as opposed to the old days when I was going progressive.  Some of you may not agree with me on the point of progressive loading but to me, when it comes to safety, I tend to stick with taking my time and measuring everything out.  In my mind, guns can be replaced but heads, eyes, hands, and other body parts cant be. 

[gcrank1]

Cpileri, I dont know of any 'bulkyness chart', but those powder mentioned by CW are two of the best and you wouldnt go wrong by using them (and isnt that the more relevant part of your question). As you gain experience in the reloading aspect you will get a 'feel' for a lot of what you read due to certain powders/loads being oft repeated and referenced.
Unique is not a bulky powder, but is more-so than the faster shotgun powders like Bullseye and RedDot, etc. In most (all?) reloading manuals the faster powders are listed first, then the slower, in order. The grains weight/pressures developed/velocities achieved give a clue to their performance as the load density increases.
Ball powders meter like 'glass', flake powders less so, and rod powders 'grunch' the measure quite often when thrown.
But those rod powders, that have mostly been around a long time, tend to fill a case the best and have plenty of data behind them.
You, as a new reloader, need to be using verified reloading manual data, or that from the powder manufactuer, only.

[cpileri]

Now, that Trail Boss seems like a safe and doable idea:  especially iff IMR's own directions are true!
Figure out maximum case capacity with bullet seated
2. weigh that amount of trail Boss
3. drop to 70% of that maximum as starting load.
here;
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf
If that's true, then me and my digital scale ought to be able to do that.
Some examples i have found show loads of ~12grains as low (but not lowest) starting loads in 45-70 cases being ~14kpsi pressure with 250-300gr bullets.  All data for 5744 are too high pressures- although i can look harder for low pressure loads, i am sure.

Problem is, 45-70 is one thing, and 45-120 data is for a cartridge 3.25inches long; whereas a blown out 9.3x74r case will be 2.84" long.  So my starting amount willbe determined by an an unknown (or unfound) maximum.

I'll continue my search, looking for load density of trailboss in blown out 9.3x74r, or case capacity of blown out 9.3x74R; or whatever search terms my google-fu can come up with.

C-

[cpileri]

here's someone who did 444 Marlin, for what its worth (since pressures are unknown):


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76185

[Blackhawker]

cpileri,
Here is what I think:  save yourself a whole lot of trouble and just go out and buy yourself a 45 Colt carbine or carbine barrel for whatever platform in which you are shooting from.  Forget about shooting the 45 Colt in a 410 chamber.  I had a Thompson Contender barrel chambered in 45 Colt and 410.  The 410 was fun as heck to shoot and the 45 Colt never shot well.  Aside from the jump in the chamber, you also have an area at the end of the barrel in which a choke is to be screwed in place when shooting the 410.  Maybe I'm wrong but I think that if you don't have rifling all the way out to the crown of your barrel, you're never going to achieve good accuracy.  So, why waste the time fooling around with the chamber jump when you can just go out and buy a new barrel??  Besides, fooling around with light loads and experimental loads in a high volume cartridge is only a recipe for danger and disaster. 

I second gcrank's statement:  You, as a new reloader, need to be using verified reloading manual data, or that from the powder manufactuer, only.

....just my thoughts. 

[cpileri]

Well, y'all sure are doing a good job of convincing me to forget the idea.

Am looking for 45LC barrel, unfortunately d/c'd by manufacturer.

Also, although I am not the MOST experienced reloader; and have done a bit but always with published loads.  Problem is, there isnt much for this 45-extra-long-colt (450 Mongo) cartridge.  So, I am new to this cartridge and to 'experimenting' in general.  SO maybe I am a new reloader, maybe not, depending on yoru viewpoint.  Unfortunately, saying I need to stick to published loads means I never get to try the 450 Mongo EVER.

I do, sincerely, appreciate everyone's concern for my safety. Really, Thanks!

All I really want to know is a safe place to start (and probably not ever go higher) with light loads for this cartridge.  Light meaning approx 45LC power, and safe for a SB1 receiver/~14,000psi.

I liked the idea of and the seeming ease of determining starting load of the Trail Boss powder.  Am still looking for other similarly bulky and 'forgiving" (pressure-wise) powders.  I am enjoying the research, if nothing else.

Happy New Year.

C-

[cpileri]

And as for that screw-in choke... I am leaving it off.  Does it help anything?  it looks like an attempt to reduce the bore diameter (for the last inch of so of the barrel length, anyway) when firing 410 loads.  But it looks like the openign of a cavern with stalagtites and stalagmites arrayed like a monstrous stoney mouth.

It is obviously too narrow for 45-cal loads.  And since the barrel is rifled, dows it do anything beneficial to the spin of the 410bore loads?

So far, I havent even tried firing with it in.

[gcrank1]

Im glad you appreciate that we are trying to help, not only you, but anyone else who may read this thread. All of us so called 'experienced reloaders' have at least thought similar things to you, and some of us have, well......gone where angels fear to tread.
By rights, a .45 Colt load in that bigger capacity case should have lower pressures. Powder positioining, as stated, is going to be an issue; there is a lot of history doing just that in big cases, though. The Choke I am not familair with, but imagine that an 'overbore' tube would protect the barrel threads as the gas is trying to escape around the bullet base.
FWIW, knowing what I think I know today, after 30+ yrs. doing this, I would buy a container of Trail Boss and have at it. I know these barrels havent the best reputation but you may be the exception,; and I always have to mess about with odd-ball ideas myself.