Stopping gun !

[SHOOTALL]

Is your carry handgun a stopping gun ? Do you even look at the stopping index ? Do you follow it ? Do you care ? It would seem that most would carry 357 mag. if they did use the index .
It is important to note that in a defense shooting it is important to stop the attack. Killing is an unfortunate side effect. If you don't agree with the index why ?
I feel many select a carry gun on looks , cool factor or from others telling them what is best. Many don't know the index exist or have ever considered that one round is better.

[jhm]

     I have 5 1911s all in .45acp several 38/357 revolvers abt. 8 .9mm s and a few other calibers, currently I carry a sig. 239 in .40 but my all time favorite cal. for CCW is a 9mm. which I also have in a sig. 239, I have the advantage of trying out guns daily at the house, if something comes into the pawn shop I think I might  be interested in when the time is up on it I take it home and give it a try, If I dont exactly hate it I tend to keep it after-all another one wont hurt.   BTW with the 1911s I used to carry a lightweight colt commander and sold it and havent had a 1911 yet that felt the same, and yes I have have tried most of the top names, I have a Kimber covert with CT grips on it at the shop and it just dont feel right anymore.   Have a happy new year to all.   Jim

[SHOOTALL]

Guess the question jhm is have you stopped someone with the ones you don't find something wrong with ? If not what do you use to determine which will give you the best chance at stopping an attacker ? Stopping them with one shot would be good.

[Mohawk]

It is all subjective. Whatever can be shot accurately and penetrate well enough is good. I would not comprimise the top index for what I know "should" be the best stopper. Many folks can't handle the 125 gr .357 and should not use it.  Personally, I don't think there is a "best" stopper. Placement is everything, as is shooting til empty.

[SHOOTALL]

Mohawk good points but still the 125 gr JHP in 357 holds the highest position. You point out reasons not to use it like being able to control it at best when we don't we comprise . Not stating above to argure just hoping all will offer good facts also.

[Graybeard]

I place little to no credence in the stopping index or writings of the authors of it. They ignore data if it doesn't fit into their personal bias which I believe invalidates their conclusions. Mostly I think they have played with statistics to tell the lie they want folks to believe.

I chose what to carry on any given situation based not at all on their index but on many factors affecting my situation on that give trip or moment in time. The weapon will vary from a lowly but easily hidden P32 or P3AT, a S&W 2" J-frame .38 Spec or 3" J-frame .357 or perhaps a .40 S&W or even a 12 pump shotgun or AR. It all depends on how I evaluate the risk and what I can conceal in the clothes I'm wearing at the moment. Obviously at home I have more options and am better prepared.

I am retired and have no where I really must be at any given time so tend to not go to areas known to post high risk. I don't have to so I don't. I'll have one or more with me any time out and about but which ones I decide based on all factors that play into the situation that day.

[SHOOTALL]

I do go to some places that have a higher rate of crime than others. I have not had to shoot anyone and hope to never have to. That said I can assure a .25 auto and .32 auto both killed people I saw shot . Nither stopped the person fast as one would hope . A 30-30 worked well as it was a bang flop . That said along with reading the charts etc. I carry a 357 mag. most all the time even when it is a back up. Main reason it is comfortable to tote , easy to hide , light and seems to be a proven cal.

[williamlayton]

If you want a .357 performance in another format (more bullets) and from my experience, easier shooting, a 9x23 is a good ticket item.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

William do you feel the bullet streamed lined for use in an auto will have the same effect as a bullet with the edge on the front like a JSWHP bullet from a revolver ? Some ( I'm inclined to myself ) feel this is the reason for the 357mags preformance . Bullet type and construction do have alot to do with it , if not FMJ's would not have the poor reputation they enjoy.

[Mohawk]

Not a problem. The old 125 is blistering, no doubt. and within punching range of an armed suspect you can snap off 6 shots in the basket pretty readily. In a N frame for example there is nothing better IMHO. But that's open carry. Its a far cry from a carry J frame of a civilian. I think a good blend, for those that like revolvers, are the Gold Dot 135 +P or the Buff Bore 158 gr LHP non- +P. As for the index in general, I would like to see a modern version to include newer loads. The last one I saw was 10 + yrs old. And I sort of questioned it then. Maybe just my personal obsevations but some of the poorer scoring rounds have done well for me and others. Does that make sense?

[SHOOTALL]

I have no ax to grind here just looking for others opinion . I like the J-frame in 357. I was glad when the 340PD came out. I feel confident it will do as well as any chambering in a J frame or many other smaller rounds. It is a compromise from the 4 inch bbl gun that made the 357m #1.

[Mohawk]

What do you carry in your 340? The 125 JHP?

[SHOOTALL]

yes unless I am in the woods then its 158 gr JHP. or snake shot. BTW 125 gr JHP here is 56 bucks a box for name brand. I do have a box of the speer 135gr stuff for guns with 1.8 inch bbls but have not tried it. Anyway I pratice with the less expensive factory 158's or reloaded 125's to cut cost. If you chose to tote a 12 oz 357m. You will need to shoot regular to keep up skill but also to keep hand tuff. I also use secret service wooden grips. If this gun had an exposed hammer I'm not so sure it would be as shootable as it is with a high hold.

[Noreaster]

There was a chart out by Speer or Winchester which had penetration and expansion tables listed for several common police calibers. I couldn't believe how similar the high performance rounds were. I would feel comfortable with a 9mm loaded with the right ammo. On the other hand, if I were between a killer and my family,I would prefer a 45acp or 357 sig. For years my favorite carry gun was a 442 loaded with +P. I agree with other post about proper shot placement. I fell into the trap of carrying too much gun and not having it with me all the time.


RIP Officer John Maguire Woburn PD, 12/26/10, 34 yrs. a hero!

[GH1]

More often than not my weapon choice is determined by clothing and where I'm going. If it's cold enough for a heavy coat then I carry the .357. However, where I live it's rarely cold enough for that, so it's usually my Bersa or when it's really hot it's the Kel-Tec, both in .380. I'd love to be able to carry the revolver all the time, but it's just not practical. And like others have mentioned, I try to avoid high crime areas. Having a weapon is no guarantee of safety and I don't feel the need to look for trouble. Life is challenging enough without foolish behavior.
GH1

[Dee]

I won't give an opinion on the best one shot stopper, because I don't have to. Stopping index is an interesting concept, but the FACTS ARE, the 125 grain jacketed hollow point in 357 magnum has the best one shot stopping record in law enforcement actual shoot data history. This data goes back to the 60s and is collected NATION WIDE from law enforcement agencies for the FBI.
I have used the 357 magnum 125 grain described in a shooting, and a 200 grain hollow point in 45 acp in another shooting with very similar circumstances. Although both performed and I obviously won, the 357 mag did not fail but, the 45 acp was marginal although successful, but just barely.
As far as concealed carry, I personally carry a J-frame Smith Model 60 in 357 mag. with said bullet, and trust it completely. I have only used the Model 60 to stop an 80 pound Rott but, after losin an ear it did change his mind about my little Jack Russell, and retired to his place of residence with bad hearing and, a missing right ear. A bad shot on my part, but my point was made to both the dog, and the owner.

[Brett]

Ah yes the elusive "one shot man stopper".  It's about like finding a unicorn or a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.  Sounds great in theory but their are just too many variables to narrow it down to one caliber.  True you can increase your odds to an extent by choosing a major caliber but if you can't hit the side of a barn with your .45magnum+p+ Glockinwesson or you don't have it with you because it's so big and heavy it requires a carriage and at least one other man to move it what good is that "one shot man stopper caliber".  

My line of thought goes something like this; The ideal SD weapon is the one in the largest caliber that you can shoot proficiently and carry on you comfortably and inconspicuously.   Anything else is just a bunch of gun magazine writer hype and rhetoric.

To put it another way:  Let's say an armed BG confronts you and you defend yourself with a 4" .357 revolver that you struggle to retrieve from your smart carry and manage to get off one unaimed shot which only grazes his left arm before he puts your lights out.   Meanwhile across town a would be rapist jumps out of the bushes intent on making your sweetheart his next victim but she quickly draws her .22 cal. derringer from her coat pocket and puts a 40gr stinger right between his eyes dropping him like a sack of rice.  Which one of you had the "one shot stopper gun/caliber"?  

[Dee]

I would stay close to the girl friend. She's a hell of a shot with a derringer.

[SHOOTALL]

Why is it when the 125 gr stats are noted those who do not own a 357 mag. or can't shoot it well always go to well its better to hit with a 22 than miss with a 50 cal ? Being real the lady could have just as well had a 357 mag derringer and been more effective in a different encounter. Point is you can miss with any cal. BUT if you hit close to a sweet spot which round has proven to do the one shot stop more times than others ? The 125 gr 357 mag. holds that spot. As for simple to use and safe the revolvers that shoot the 357 has proven itself there also.
 The 40 S&W seems to be a round that is working also. I feel comfortable with a 10mm . I once read that the Colt SAA was made mostly in 45 Colt because of the army. Had civilian use been the totals the 38-40 and 41 Colt would have accounted for a large number . seems both left the factory at times with same bore size and some interchanged the round in the field. Guess things were not as tight back then. The 36 cal cap and ball revolver saw alot of use. It would seem that somewhere between 35 cal and 41 cal. lies the best dia. bullet for self defense ?

[jhm]

Shootall:  What I use is the one I can shoot the BEST, and there are a few of them, however if it isnt a comfortable weapon to carry I usually dont carry it as a all day gun, I can empty a full clip of 9s out of a 239 more accuratly than I can a full clip of .40s out of the same platform, as far as the .45 goes they are great shooting guns however for me a little on the heavy side to carry concelled all day, even the Scandium S&W 1911, but what the heck I like the 9s the best and still havent had anyone volenteer to stand in front of it to prove it wont do the job.   Jim

[SHOOTALL]

I had both in 239 , didn't like them for carry ( heavy just  me ) . I have had a couple opertunities to see what happens when you change carry habits. What I mean is when SHTF you react. you do as you have trained. This is a good thing if you understand it and use it to your advantage. If you have to think where is my gun today and what do I need to do to make it go bang , you may lose . I got my first lesson one cold dark night . We had had people using our driveway as a route to where they grew pot ( police ended that) . I did not know that at the time and thought people were using it for other purposes . I decided to check it out one night. Instead of the J frame in the pocket it was a shoulder rig under a coat. Biger gun is better right. Well about 30 yards from where I expected to find someone in the dark something comes out the woods beside me . Keep in mind I am not using a flash light . Well I reached in that front pocket where there was no gun  . Now some will say it won't happen to them , I said the same . Some like to switch cause they want to show off new toys , been there also. My carry gun looks worn out from carry, top of the alloy frame has places where it is worn down. So I advise have one gun in the same place every time you tote. Add all the extra guns you want but always have that one . Some made a deal out of only 5 shots , carry 2 guns , go to a 327 federal mag. If you face several guys with guns or weapons up close you will be lucky to get off 5 shots unless you can retreat to cover anyway. BTW I wouldn't stand in front of a BB gun but that does not make it a good choice for self defense .

[LocnLod]

.357 ballistics that are known in law enforcement for stopping are out of 4" barrels.  Out of a 2" J frame barrel performance is in line with 9mm +P from a 4" barrel. 

[SHOOTALL]

Yes I have heard such also. But in a 1.8 inch bbl 357mag. is better than a 38 spl. out of a 1.8 inch bbl.

[S.S.]

Ingram M10 in .45 ACP.
I know for a fact it is a stopper.
In Beiruit it made several Martyrs.
Multiple impacts in rapid succession are not what you are
after in this thread though. I still prefer large bore and
slow moving projectiles. There are so many variables that come
into play that a blanket statement of what is a stopping gun
can not really be made. Maybe a 12 Ga. slug gun

[Noreaster]

Check out Buffalo Bore. They have some velocity comparisons with different barrel lengths. It surprized me, newer revolvers with short barrels did vey well.

[demented]

 99% of the time I'll have my S&W 638 loaded with plus P 158 gr. lead hollowpoints in my pocket.  Whether this combo works I have yet to see (hope I never do) but thats probably what I'll have if the balloon goes up. I have and still do on occasion carry a .45 with standard velocity 230 Gold Dots and a couple 9mms loaded with plus P 124 gr. Gold dots, have never felt under gunned with any-I intend on putting bullets where they'll do the most good if possible, caliber be danged.

[alacharger]

Even with a shotgun, there are no guaranteed stops.  Regardless of what you are using, continue to shoot until the threat is neutralized. 

With that said, use as much gun as you can comfortably carry and shoot accurately.  I prefer full size 1911's in either 10mm or .45 ACP, with a .380 ACP or .38 special as backup.  Your mileage may vary.

[mcwoodduck]

Even with a shotgun, there are no guaranteed stops.  Regardless of what you are using, continue to shoot until the threat is neutralized. 

With that said, use as much gun as you can comfortably carry and shoot accurately. 

+1
A handgun is the poorest choice of defensive arm.
Marshall wrote street stoppers to see what was effective. 
The Strousbourg test where the french shot goats with different bullet designs and calibers.  (the PETA people go nuts over the mention of the test by the way) To see what was the most effective handgun caliber and bullet combination out there for a semi auto in the early 90's.  I think 3 to 5 goats were shot with each bullet/ caliber combination.  Any goat that lasted longer than 5 seconds got another round.
The bullets and calibers followed along the lines with what Marshall wrote about.
In either the test or the observations Marshall made in real world shooting shot placement and being able to get the bullet into the soft gooey parts that either reduce blood pressure, leak lots of blood, skeletal structure, or stop motor functions was the main factor in any of the encounters.
There were a few stories in Street stoppers where even large calibers like 45 ACP ball and the FBI 10mm Load failed.
The 45 Ball failed to hit something vital, and the shooter was killed and the 10mm load failed to get through heavy dense mussle of a body builder on PCP.

[SHOOTALL]

I watched a film of a GA. state trooper ( I think ) who stopped a guy for a traffic violation. The guy acted funny so the trooper looked in the bed of the truck seeing what looked like illegal drugs . Long story short trooper shot guy in chest with a 45 acp . Frderal hydro shock ammo was used . The guy then attacked the trooper , trooper could not get away and was losing conc. he tossed the gun . Two more troopers came and it took all three to cuff the guy. He was on pcp . He died 2 hrs later it was stated. So no round is 100% yet some are much better than others as history of shootings prove. And any hand gun is better than any long gun if you have it with you , that's the selling point to hand guns. The fact that most people live after being shot with a hand gun vs most die from a rifle shot proves with out doubt which kills better . From reading the post alot of folks don't seem to care and carry what looks good I guess. Not cutting them down but it is interesting that people don't check these things out .

[mcwoodduck]

The story with the 45 in marshall's book was two guys in a rooming house get into a fight and one says he is going to get his gun, the other says me too and they tromp up the stairs, side by side to their rooms.  Each emerge with their guns.  one with a Colt Gold cup loaded with 230 grain ball ammo.  The other had a jennings 22 auto loaded with stingers.  The Colt guy was laffing and shot the guy with the Jenning 7 times.  The jenning guy fired once hitting the Colt guy in the Aorta sending him to the ground to bleed out in short order.
The guy with the 7 45 holes in him took two busses to the hospital and lived.
When talking about African Big Game rifles Capstick said shoot the larges gun you can well.  He said that hitting a buffalo in the foot, will have the m running over you faster on three legs than on four.  I think the same goes with defensive handguns.
When I was in college in the early 90's My schedule and work allowed me to shoot at the local range on Wednesday mornings before work.
I oftern ran into new police oficers that had the new model 60 in 357 Mag and had problems hitting a human sized sillohuette at 21 feet with them.
I once offered to help and was rudly treated and bet the officers I could out shoot them with a rented Model 60 than they could with their guns.
After I collected $ from them I then was teaching them how to shoot the tiny flame thrower / cannon hybrid.  Over the next few weeks they brought their friends in to be humbled and learn how to shoot the guns.  So much so I was making rent on teaching the new and a few older officers how to shoot.
I do not think grabbing a gun with the best one shot stops or the most foot pounds is the best thing in all cases.  If it were we would all be packing A ruger redhawk 454 Casull, a S&W 500 snub nose, or a desert eagle in 50 AE.  but not many of us could make repeated hits with it needed for defensive work.  I also wonder if the stats of 63% one shot stops with 45 Ball and 62% with 9mm ball are mediocre and the 60 grain Silver tip in 32ACP at 60% due to poor or good shooting and not the bullets.  Looking at the stats only give me a Colt 1903 loaded with sivertips (My colt liked them my Walther PP does not) over a Full sized 1911 loaded with ball any day. The meduim framed 1903 will fit in a pocket of my field coat in my waist band where as the 1911 my end up not going on all trips.  Now if the 1911 was a later model or a Sig P220 that can shoot the hotter hollow points that get you into the high 80s low 90% one shot stops..... Different story may occur.  Also remember that the printed data showing foot pounds and FPS is based on either a 4 or 6" barrel in a revolver and a full sized auto 4.75 to 5".  the shorter barrels significantly reduce the energy.  That 125 grain 98% one shot stop Semi jacketed Remington load for the 357 mag may only be giving the printed speeds of a 125 grain 38 special out of the 2" barrels. 
Shooting the steel swingers at the pistol shoots I noticed my 4" revolver would swing targets that my 2" revolver would not, shooting the same ammo.  My 380 would move those same plates.  making me think if I had to carry a medium framed auto or a snub nose 38 spl, the 380 would get my choice especially holding an extra round or three.