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Offline ironfoot

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Let’s not spin the Civil War
« on: December 28, 2010, 12:36:26 PM »
In today's local newspaper:


WASHINGTON — The Civil War is about to loom very large in the popu­lar memory. We would do well to be candid about its causes and not allow the distortions of contemporary politics or long­standing myths to cloud our understanding of why the nation fell apart.

The coming year will mark the 150th anniversary of the onset of the conflict, which is usually dated to April 12, 1861, when Confederate bat­teries opened fire at 4:30 a.m.

on federal troops occupying Fort Sumter. Union forces surrendered the next day, after 34 hours of shelling.

The Civil War has forever captured the American imagination (witness the popularity of re- enactments) for the gallantry and heroism of those who fought and died, but also for the sheer carnage and destruction it left in its wake. Anniversaries heighten that engagement, and I still recall the cen­tennial of the war in 1961 as a time when kids with no previous interest in American history were exchanging Civil War trading cards along with baseball cards.

My neighborhood friend Jon Udis got a subscription to Civil War Times Illustrated, and our regular discussions of sports heroes Bill Russell, Johnny Unitas and Carl Yastrzemski were briefly interrupted by talk about Grant and Lee, Sherman and “Stonewall” Jackson.

But our conversations, like so many about the war, focused on people and battles, not on why the confrontation happened in the first place. There remains enormous denial over the fact that the central cause of the war was our national disagreement over race and slavery, not states’ rights or any­thing else.

When the war started, leaders of the Southern rebellion were entirely straightforward about this. On March 21, 1861, Alexander Stephens, the Confederacy’s vice president, gave what came to be known as the “Cornerstone speech” in which he declared that the “proper status of the Negro in our form of civilization” was “ the immediate cause of the late rupture.” Thomas Jefferson, Stephens said, had been wrong in believing “ that the enslavement of the African was in vio­lation of the laws of nature.”

“Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea,” Stephens insisted. “Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordi­nation to the superior race is his natu­ral and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical and moral truth.”

Our greatest contemporary histori­an of the Civil War, James McPherson, has noted that Confederate President Jefferson Davis, a major slaveholder, “ justified secession in 1861 as an act of self­defense against the incoming Lincoln administration.” Abraham Lincoln’s policy of excluding slavery from the territories, Davis said, would make “property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless ... thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars.”

South Carolina’s 1860 declaration on the cause of secession mentioned slavery, slaves or slaveholding 18 sepa­rate times. And as the historian Douglas Egerton points out in “Year of Meteors,” his superb recent book how the 1860 election precipitated the Civil War, the South split the Democratic Party and later the country not in the name of states’ rights but because it sought federal government g­uarantees that slavery would prevail in new states. “Slaveholders,” Egerton notes, “routinely shifted their ideological ground in the name of protecting unfree labor.”

After the war, in one of the great efforts of spin control in our history, both Davis and Stephens, despite their own words, insisted that the war was not about slavery after all, but about state sovereignty. By then, of course, slavery was “a dead and discredited institution,” McPherson wrote, and “(to) concede that the Confederacy had broken up the United States and launched a war that killed 620,000 Americans in a vain attempt to keep 4 million people in slavery would not confer honor on their lost cause.”

Why does getting the story right matter? As Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour’s recent difficulty with the history of the civil rights years demon-s­trates, there is to this day too much evasion of how integral race, racism and racial conflict are to our national story. We can take pride in our strug­gles to overcome the legacies of slav­ery and segregation. But we should not sanitize how contested and bloody the road to justice has been. We will dishonor the Civil War if we refuse to face up to the reason it was fought.

E. J. Dionne’s e-mail address is ejdionne@washpost.com.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


E.J. DIONNE

Washington Post



 

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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 01:40:43 PM »
Too late to not "spin" the War.  The spin started when the federals claimed it was only a war to free end slavery.  We see again and again and again from federal sources that the initial concerns were revenue for federal coffers, mostly to fund improvements in norther harbors, rail, and other infrastructure.  It wasn't until it looked like England and France were getting ready to recognize Richmond that it became about ending slavery. 
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 03:04:02 PM »
It was a rebellion to preserve slavery.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 03:16:35 PM »
It was a rebellion to preserve slavery.

Well, ONE of the reasons, among others such as plundering southern states to pay for northern infrastructure and industry,  that some states wanted to leave the union was to preserve slavery (which was starting to die out anyway).  But the WAR was waged to keep the revenues flowing from the south into northern coffers.
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 03:49:28 PM »
There is no doubt to the thoughtful reader of history that slavery was at the heart of the Civil War.  But it is also true, that the Southern states had every legal right to secede from the union they had voluntarily joined.  It is also true, that Lincoln had no real thought of ending slavery, or he would have written the Emancipation Proclamation quite a bit sooner. 

While slavery is a great dark spot on our nation's history, the liberties that Lincoln took have very directly led to the mess we are now in, by instituting a Federal system far larger and more powerful than our founders envisioned. 

Perhaps it is our punishment, all over again as a nation for our sin.  And I do say "our", because the North profited directly and indirectly from the institution of slavery, as did the South.

What can be said, is that the destruction of so many young men could have been avoided by wiser leadership among their elders, who were all too eager to bring on the war....

Ben
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 07:02:22 PM »


While slavery is a great dark spot on our nation's history,


Slavery was not only practiced in the US.  It is a world wide institution.  Before the trad moved across the Atlantic, as many blacks were sold east in the first 400 years of the African slave trade as were sold west in the next 400 years.  And the first link in that trade was blacks selling blacks to, usually, Arab slavers, who then sold to other Africans, Indians, other Arabs, and Europeans.  That is something else that gets twisted - it is made into something that ONLY existed in the southern states.  RI had something like 50 distilleries making rum for the slave trade, plus ship yards.  I think every shipyard in New England made slavers.  And the all sailed under the Stars and Stripes, and were all financed by northern money.
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2010, 01:19:28 AM »
subdjoe, you are correct, which is my point above, that the North profited from the slave trade equally with the South.  Our constitution however, if followed however, should have ended the practice for us.

My 9th ggrandfather came to this land in the 1620's, his passage paid by a wealthy man.  To repay that man, he sold himself into bondage, (indentured), for 7 years.  While not slavery, it was close.

It was a different time, with different values, one we cannot fully appreciate because we have not lived it...

Ben
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Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2010, 03:34:13 AM »
mechanic, my first ancester to these shores was also an indentured servant from france.
we enslaved people, we stole land from native americans and we stole the southwest from the mexicans.
the south was stolen from the cherokee, the seminoles and those tribes from alabama and mississippi whose names I forgot.  the folks back then did some terrible things.  but that was then and this is now.
it's time to bury the bitterness and hatred.  there is not one person alive today that had any part in the civil war.

I like ironfoots idea. talk about people and battles.  I'm a yankee according to some but on another thread I made note of the genius and bravery of the south and referenced the Hunley (I got to see the mock-up in july) but a mod still threatened to ban me because I didn't agree with everything he said.
so, ironfoot and mechanic, the war is still being fought. :'(
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2010, 05:41:03 AM »
subdjoe, you are correct, which is my point above, that the North profited from the slave trade equally with the South.  Our constitution however, if followed however, should have ended the practice for us.

My 9th ggrandfather came to this land in the 1620's, his passage paid by a wealthy man.  To repay that man, he sold himself into bondage, (indentured), for 7 years.  While not slavery, it was close.

It was a different time, with different values, one we cannot fully appreciate because we have not lived it...

Ben

If I recall my history, it was pretty easy for indentureds to be sentenced to further years of servitude for a variety of reasons, many ended up never escaping it.

Exactly - different times, different values.  Yet too many try to judge our ancestors by our mores, values, and standards.  We have to understand yesterday in its proper context.

Bugeye, yes, it is still being fought.  But now it is a war of (dis)information.  Check the history books in our schools and you see that all southerners were slave owners who beat their slaves every day.  You will learn that somehow the Underground Railroad somehow only had northerners and escaped slaves running it even though there were hundreds, if not thousands, of miles of it in the South.  I could go on, but it has all been posted here before. 

Oh, and your harping on being told to dial it back, I mod on some other fora and I have kicked people who agree with me off because they were obnoxious at others.  With you bringing it up in another thread like this, I would have sent you a private message to stop.  If you didn't I would kick you out.  As the song says, "gotta know when to fold 'em."  Just a hint.
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2010, 12:02:10 AM »
"... the Southern states had every legal right to secede from the union they had voluntarily joined."

Lincoln did not believe that secession was legal. Here is what he said about it in his first inaugural address:
"I hold that in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever, it being impossible to destroy it except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself."
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

"It is also true, that Lincoln had no real thought of ending slavery, or he would have written the Emancipation Proclamation quite a bit sooner."  

Lincoln spoke at length about stopping the spread of slavery into the new territories. Here, as an example, is his Coopers Union speech:
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

The pro slavery secessionists thought that by not allowing expansion of slavery into the territories, the slave states would become outnumbered by free states, and that would lead to abolishment of slavery, so they seceded to preserve slavery.

"What can be said, is that the destruction of so many young men could have been avoided by wiser leadership among their elders, who were all too eager to bring on the war...."


Hard to argue with that.

Ironfoot



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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2010, 03:16:40 AM »
Quote
"... the Southern states had every legal right to secede from the union they had voluntarily joined."

Lincoln did not believe that secession was legal. Here is what he said about it in his first inaugural address:
"I hold that in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever, it being impossible to destroy it except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself."
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html


The same Honest Abe also said
:  
Quote
Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and to form one that suits them better. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may make their own of such territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority intermingling with or near them who oppose their movement.  

Lincoln on the floor of Congress, 13 January 1848
Congressional Globe, Appendix
1st Session 30th Congress, page 94



Quote
"It is also true, that Lincoln had no real thought of ending slavery, or he would have written the Emancipation Proclamation quite a bit sooner."  

Lincoln spoke at length about stopping the spread of slavery into the new territories. Here, as an example, is his Coopers Union speech:
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

The pro slavery secessionists thought that by not allowing expansion of slavery into the territories, the slave states would become outnumbered by free states, and that would lead to abolishment of slavery, so they seceded to preserve slavery.

"What can be said, is that the destruction of so many young men could have been avoided by wiser leadership among their elders, who were all too eager to bring on the war...."


Hard to argue with that.

Ironfoot


Lincoln on Blacks and slavery:

Quote
"There is no right, and ought to be no inclination in the people of the free States to enter into the slave States, and interfere with the question of slavery at all."

Quote
"It is nothing but a miserable perversion of what I have said, to assume that I have declared Missouri, or any other slave State shall emancipate her slaves. I have proposed no such thing."

Quote
I say that we must not interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists, because the constitution forbids it, and the general welfare does not require us to do so.

Quote
"I have no purpose directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of
slavery where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

 
And Lincolns comment on that:

Quote
"I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution has
passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government
shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States,
including that of persons held to service.  Holding such a
provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no
objection to its being made express and irrevocable."
 

That amendment to the Constitution was passed in Congress AFTER most of the southern states had withdrawn their representatives from Congress.  It but needed ratification by the States.  Seems like, if it was only about slavery as some suggest, all the south needed to do was to ratify it along with the northern states.  That they didn't suggest that, contrary to the history books and apologists for northern industry and finance, there was more to the secession movement than slavery.


Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2010, 07:19:09 AM »
It was a rebellion to preserve slavery.

It was a rebellion I'll grant you that. Now having said that please be so good as to direct me to the chapter and verse in our Constitution that allows any President ANY REASON to send troops into any of the several States as an answer to a rebellion whatever that rebellion might be?

I would save you the time but I'm truly interested in A) Will you even answer my question B) Fall back on your Slavery answer or C) does it matter to you (not calling you out here I really would like to know.) that Lincoln killed the Constitution that he swore to protect and defend?

I await your reply, respectfully.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2011, 02:23:20 AM »
Hi Subdjoe

Where did you find the Lincoln quote about rebellion?

Below is the quote from the Yahoo!.Answers website, along with an explanation posted 2 years ago:
(Your quote missed the part in bold print.)
"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable and most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."

The Rebellion to Preserve Slavery wasn't intended to free the world, but rather to spread slavery to the territories.

Here is a comment on the quote from the same website:

"This quotation does not address the question of states rights. It addresses what is usually called "the right to revolution." In 1861, Lincoln sincerely believed that a small minority of southerners had manipulated the political process to overawe the majority of southern citizens and that secession was not supported by the majority of southern citizens. He believed that the political South (by which he meant adult white men) opposed secession and that secession conventions were illegal and unrepresentative. That is why he thought going to war over secession was not opposing a genuine revolution of the southern people. You may disagree with his thinking but he really did think about this and articulate a theory that many other northerners agreed with as well as southern unionists who did not recognize the south's secession. But to repeat myself, Lincoln's words refer to the right of revolution, not to states' rights doctrine."



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080810190553AAJ2yRJ

Regarding your Lincoln quotes on blacks and slavery, what is your point in posting them, and do you agree or disagree with those quotes?
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2011, 02:40:44 AM »
Hi Ga.windbreak

In response to your question:

"It was a rebellion I'll grant you that. Now having said that please be so good as to direct me to the chapter and verse in our Constitution that allows any President ANY REASON to send troops into any of the several States as an answer to a rebellion whatever that rebellion might be?"

What did you mean by "our Constitution"?
After the southern states seceded, what constitution were they operating under, the US Constitution or the Confederate Constitution?
It seems strange to argue that the seceeding states were no longer part of the US, but then those same southern states complain that they should be afforded rights under the US Constitution.

Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2011, 05:05:42 AM »
I posted the comments by Honest Abe about blacks and slavery to show that, contrary to some pronouncements, he was not trying to end slavery, and that he was not a friend of the black man.  And, also given his willingness to keep slavery intact, even to supporting an amendment to the Constitution to insure that it would be forever protected, slavery was not the main cause of the south leaving the Union.

I'll have to get back to you on where I got the quote.  I've had two (Yep TWO) computers go down in the past month.  I just happened to have saved that to a thumb drive.  I know that I have seen it on several sites, never with what you bolded.  And, that line does not change
Quote
Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better.
It is an explanatory comment, nothing more.  It is decidedly not aimed at slavery.  I believe it was in support of the 18487 Hungarian Revolt.

Now, Did the 13 colonies have the right to leave the Union with England in 1776?  Seems like your arguments that the deep south had no right to leave this Union apply to all 13 trying to leave England.


And, care to address his support of the Perpetual Slavery Amendment?  And why, after it had passed in Congress, the deep south did not come back into the union if, as you claim, the war was only about slavery?


Hi Subdjoe

Where did you find the Lincoln quote about rebellion?

Below is the quote from the Yahoo!.Answers website, along with an explanation posted 2 years ago:
(Your quote missed the part in bold print.)
"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable and most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit."

The Rebellion to Preserve Slavery wasn't intended to free the world, but rather to spread slavery to the territories.

Here is a comment on the quote from the same website:

"This quotation does not address the question of states rights. It addresses what is usually called "the right to revolution." In 1861, Lincoln sincerely believed that a small minority of southerners had manipulated the political process to overawe the majority of southern citizens and that secession was not supported by the majority of southern citizens. He believed that the political South (by which he meant adult white men) opposed secession and that secession conventions were illegal and unrepresentative. That is why he thought going to war over secession was not opposing a genuine revolution of the southern people. You may disagree with his thinking but he really did think about this and articulate a theory that many other northerners agreed with as well as southern unionists who did not recognize the south's secession. But to repeat myself, Lincoln's words refer to the right of revolution, not to states' rights doctrine."



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080810190553AAJ2yRJ

Regarding your Lincoln quotes on blacks and slavery, what is your point in posting them, and do you agree or disagree with those quotes?

Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Gary G

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2011, 05:40:59 AM »
Subjoes quote about Lincoln defending succession was made by Lincoln in 1847 when Lincoln was a one term congressman. Lincoln was a vocal opponent of the US-Mexican War of 1846 and was defending succession as a way of protesting that war. (Donald W. Livingston, "the Succession Tradition in America")

So politicians are wishy-washy. What is new?
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2011, 06:04:04 AM »
Hi subdjoe

You didn't answer my question, do you agree with the Lincoln quotes stating he did not have the authority to end slavery where it existed?

Anybody who reads the Lincoln/Douglas debates, and Lincoln's Coopers Union speech, knows Lincoln was against slavery. His plan was to stop the spread of slavery to the territories, and accept the continuance of slavery where it was for the time being. Read Lincoln's Coopers Union speech:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

This line from Lincoln's Coopers Union speech summarizes his position:

"Wrong as we think slavery is, we can yet afford to let it alone where it is, because that much is due to the necessity arising from its actual presence in the nation; but can we, while our votes will prevent it, allow it to spread into the National Territories, and to overrun us here in these Free States? If our sense of duty forbids this...."


Don't spin Lincoln and try to make it sound like he did not oppose slavery.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2011, 06:48:18 AM »
This is from Lincoln's first inaugural address:

"One section of our country believes slavery is right, and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong, and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute…."

http://www.vindicatingthefounders.com/library/lincoln-first-inaugural.html

The south seceded because a northerner, who said slavery was wrong and should not be extended, was elected President.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2011, 07:05:08 AM »
Slavery was/is wrong and was ended by a genius named Abe Lincoln.  No human has the right to enslave another....period...ever.  This from a huge fan of the Confederacy and it's leaders.  Keep in mind that Lincoln thought Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite.  I do not....... I think Jefferson was an even bigger genius.
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Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2011, 07:08:58 AM »
This question is asked in order to educate myself rather than make a statement.

How could expansion of slavery to the territories benefit the south?

Some in the south practice slavery.  Only a small percentage of southerners owned slaves.
These people had the finances to expand their operations in the area in which
they lived rather than expanding into a territory.  Based on these observations
the expansion argument could very easily be used as a ruse to bolster support
for a war that many did not want.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2011, 07:33:39 AM »
Hi littlecanoe

In answer to your question, "How could expansion of slavery to the territories benefit the south?"

If slavery was expanded to the territories, then slave states would continue to have parity, or maybe even outnumber, free states.

This is from the first posting in this thread:

Our greatest contemporary histori­an of the Civil War, James McPherson, has noted that Confederate President Jefferson Davis, a major slaveholder, “ justified secession in 1861 as an act of self­defense against the incoming Lincoln administration.” Abraham Lincoln’s policy of excluding slavery from the territories, Davis said, would make “property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless ... thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars.”

If the number of free states continued to expand, and the number of slave states did not expand, the free states would outnumber slave states and the free states could eventually vote to change the Constitution to explicitly outlaw slavery. Southerners who had a lot of their wealth tied up in slaves would lose much of their wealth. Even Lincoln Republican statements that slavery was wrong and should not be extended to the territories was threatening to slaveholders, because if it became universally accepted that slavery was wrong, then it would be expected that slavery should end.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2011, 08:39:21 AM »
Hi subdjoe

You didn't answer my question, do you agree with the Lincoln quotes stating he did not have the authority to end slavery where it existed?
<snip>

Don't spin Lincoln and try to make it sound like he did not oppose slavery.

OK, now that you have refined the question (since I don't agree with him that blacks are by nature less than whites) I can answer it.  I agree that the executive did not have that authority.  If the executive does, then why a legislative branch?  Just rule by executive fiat.

I was not attempting in any way to say that he did not personally oppose slavery.  But if, as his words
Quote
Holding such a
provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no
objection to its being made express and irrevocable
show, he was willing to support the Perpetual Slavery Amendment, how strong an opponent of it was he?  I think it fit more with his budding Marxist views than him being a true friend of Blacks. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2011, 09:12:35 AM »
Hi subdjoe

You and Lincoln both agree, slavery could not be abolished by the federal government in the states where it already existed.
The amendment did not change that.
But Lincoln fought to keep slavery from expanding into the territories, and said slavery was wrong.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Gary G

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 10:32:36 AM »
As in most wars, if truth were common knowledge, then who would they get to fight? Thus propaganda is invented and when repeated enough becomes history.

Too bad they didn't have Wikileaks, lol.

Boston Transcript for March 18, 1861

Quote
It does not require extraordinary sagacity to perceive that trade is perhaps the controlling motive operating to prevent the return of the seceding states to the Union which they have abandoned. Alleged grievances in regard to slavery were originally the causes for separation of the cotton states; but the mask has been thrown off and and it is apparent that the people of the principal seceding states are now for commercial independence. They dream that the centres of traffic can be changed from Northern to Southern ports.The merchants of New Orleans, Charleston and Savannah are possess with the idea that New York, Boston, and Philadelphia may be shorn, in the future, of their mercantile greatness, by a revenue system verging on free trade. If the Southern Confederation is allowed to carry out a policy by which only a nominal duty is laid upon imports, no doubt the business of the chief Northern cities will  be seriously injured thereby.

The difference is so great between tariff of the Union and that of the Confederate States that the entire Northwest must find it to their advantage to purchase their imported goods at New Orleans rather than New York. In addition to this, the manufacturing interests of the country will suffer from the increased importation resulting from low duties. The government would be false to its obligations if this state of things were not provided against.

J. H. Jordan to Secretary Chase, March 27, 1861
Quote
In the name of God! why not hold the Fort? Will reinforcing and holding it cause the rebels to attack it, and thus bring on civil war? What of it? That is just what the government ought to wish to bring about, and ought to do all it can to bring about. Let them attack the Fort, it will then be them that commence the war.
(Ramsell, "Lincoln at Fort Sumpter, p 272.)

Now someone find out who J. H. Jordan was. I think maybe he was a Republican governor.


As said previously, wars are most often fought for political-economic reasons which the people are not aware. Propaganda must be invented to justify the loss of lives in humanitarian terms.

The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline Gary G

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2011, 10:46:36 AM »
Hi subdjoe

You and Lincoln both agree, slavery could not be abolished by the federal government in the states where it already existed.
The amendment did not change that.
But Lincoln fought to keep slavery from expanding into the territories, and said slavery was wrong.

That too was an economic reason. The same reason that Lincoln did not want freed slaves in Illinois. They would compete against white labor.

However, from a political standpoint, I am sure that Subdjoe has a better answer.
The sole purpose of government is to protect your liberty. The Constitution is not to restrict the people, but to restrict government.  Ron Paul

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

“Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” — Frederic Bastiat

Offline S.S.

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »
Slavery was a convenient excuse!
Did Lincoln "Emancipate" Slaves in the north?
Or did he only "Emancipate" slaves in the Secessionist states?
States rights was the MAIN issue because there was a
lot of tax money that was about to be lost from these states
especially from cotton exports to Britain and France.
Slavery is just the politically correct cause but was really
the least of many reasons.   
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline eastbank

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2011, 01:09:51 PM »
this is where my ggg grandfather lived before the civil war and this is where he lived after serving in the union army untill he died, as you can see he realy got the spoils and plunder from serving in the war.  ISAAC PIERCE-155PVI- 155TH REGIMENT INFANTRY. THE REGIMENT LOST 254 MEN IN THE WAR. eastbank.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2011, 01:22:05 PM »
Lincoln was a criminal. Anyone that thinks he was genius must be retarded.

Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
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Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2011, 01:54:08 PM »
Hi littlecanoe

In answer to your question, "How could expansion of slavery to the territories benefit the south?"

If slavery was expanded to the territories, then slave states would continue to have parity, or maybe even outnumber, free states.

This is from the first posting in this thread:

Our greatest contemporary histori­an of the Civil War, James McPherson, has noted that Confederate President Jefferson Davis, a major slaveholder, “ justified secession in 1861 as an act of self­defense against the incoming Lincoln administration.” Abraham Lincoln’s policy of excluding slavery from the territories, Davis said, would make “property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless ... thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars.”

If the number of free states continued to expand, and the number of slave states did not expand, the free states would outnumber slave states and the free states could eventually vote to change the Constitution to explicitly outlaw slavery. Southerners who had a lot of their wealth tied up in slaves would lose much of their wealth. Even Lincoln Republican statements that slavery was wrong and should not be extended to the territories was threatening to slaveholders, because if it became universally accepted that slavery was wrong, then it would be expected that slavery should end.

This seems a very weak reason to cause the southern states to feel the need to start a war that they knew would have harsh effects.  Like Bilbo Baggins in Lord of the Rings "..like butter scraped over too much bread." 

When so many letters exist where the writers comment that they were fighting for freedom and self determination and R E Lee makes a similar statement those men did not view slavery as the primary issue.  A pivotal issue?  I can see this. 

Now, I'll pigeon hole myself by saying that I had Lincoln bias, KY being his birthplace.  I was taught a very biased history from the time I was a pup.  As an adult I just don't see his greatness in the way in which I was taught.  Additionally, I believe that the CSA was correct in fighting for self government and self determination but strongly feel that slavery was why they lost the war.  I believe that God's judgment and justice was carried out.  So, IMO, they were correct in their primary reason to fight for freedom but they were defeated by condoning a reprehensible practice.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2011, 02:03:25 PM »
Why is it that the history books tell us that the southern states started the war? The south succeeded from the Union. The Union troops in Fort Sumter were an occupying army in the Confederacy which was not part of the Union anymore. From my perspective, the Union troops should have withdrew back to the Union. Keeping them there was an act of war. The Confederacy may have fired first but the north started the war by not withdrawing from a newly formed nation.

Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3