Author Topic: Let’s not spin the Civil War  (Read 10000 times)

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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2011, 03:58:25 PM »
Slavery was a convenient excuse!
Did Lincoln "Emancipate" Slaves in the north?
Or did he only "Emancipate" slaves in the Secessionist states?
States rights was the MAIN issue because there was a
lot of tax money that was about to be lost from these states
especially from cotton exports to Britain and France.
Slavery is just the politically correct cause but was really
the least of many reasons.   

Hi S.S.
Lincoln did not believe he had the Constitutional authority to emancipate slaves.
During the war he said he did have the authority to declare the slaves in the seceeding states free, because in wartime it is fair game to deprive your opponent of property that helps him wage war.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2011, 04:17:18 PM »
Slavery was a convenient excuse!
Did Lincoln "Emancipate" Slaves in the north?
Or did he only "Emancipate" slaves in the Secessionist states?
States rights was the MAIN issue because there was a
lot of tax money that was about to be lost from these states
especially from cotton exports to Britain and France.
Slavery is just the politically correct cause but was really
the least of many reasons.   

Hi S.S.
Lincoln did not believe he had the Constitutional authority to emancipate slaves.
During the war he said he did have the authority to declare the slaves in the seceeding states free, because in wartime it is fair game to deprive your opponent of property that helps him wage war.


He gave himself that authority. 
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 03:51:35 AM »
Well which ever the case, it worked out for the better IMO...
Buckskin

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Offline Casull

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 05:20:49 AM »
Quote
Well which ever the case, it worked out for the better IMO...

Yep, much better to wage an illegal war, trash the Constitution and cause the deaths of millions than to let the institution of slavery fade out on its own (which it probably would have done within a decade or two anyway).   ::)
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 05:48:17 AM »
Quote
Well which ever the case, it worked out for the better IMO...

Yep, much better to wage an illegal war, trash the Constitution and cause the deaths of millions than to let the institution of slavery fade out on its own (which it probably would have done within a decade or two anyway).   ::)

Illegal war??? I bet every war has been called that, usually by the side that has surrendered.... :'(
Buckskin

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Offline Casull

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 06:06:03 AM »
Quote
Illegal war??? I bet every war has been called that, usually by the side that has surrendered....


I don't really care about what other wars have been called.  The States had the right to secede and Liincoln had no Constitutional authority to wage war against them for doing so.   :'(
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Offline eastbank

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 06:28:18 AM »
i,ll bet there is a lot of people who now wish you had been able to secede and kept the slaves all to your selfs. eastbank.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 10:44:23 AM »
I'll bet there are a lot of people today who love to exploit slavery in every way possible even know it ended nearly 150 years ago. They will do this even knowing that war was waged and hundreds of thousands of people (mostly white) have been killed in the process. That is not good enough for those people. They will try and "use" it forever as a means to commit racist acts against white people and in the hopes that some day they can line thier pockets with some form of restitution.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 10:59:38 AM »
Well which ever the case, it worked out for the better IMO...

Yes it did.....
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2011, 01:11:25 AM »
Ironfoot, let me see if I have your take on the WONA right.  Summarized from your posts on various threads on this forum.

Slavery only ever existed in the southern states of the US.  

No one in the north ever had anything to do with slavery at all.

The only reason any southern state left the Union was to preserve slavery, there were no other reasons.

All northerners were, and are, benevolent and wanted only freedom for Blacks, and for Blacks and Whites to live side by side in peace and harmony.

Lincoln was a saint who saw the only way to end slavery was to force the southern states back into the Union so he could, by executive fiat, abolish it at bayonet point.

The end justifies the means.  As slavery is the ultimate evil, Lincoln was justified in everything he did to hold the Union together in order to end slavery.


That is what I get from all your posts.  There were no other issues besides slavery and that Lincoln was never wrong in anything he did.  There is nothing else that needs to be, or can be, learned about the Civil War.  And, more importantly, that no one should ever try to learn anything else about it. 
Your ob't & etc,
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Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2011, 04:02:19 AM »
This is from Lincoln's first inaugural address:

"One section of our country believes slavery is right, and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong, and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute…."

http://www.vindicatingthefounders.com/library/lincoln-first-inaugural.html

The south seceded because a northerner, who said slavery was wrong and should not be extended, was elected President.

ironfoot, if Lincoln was so against slavery, WHY did the Emancipation Proclamation EXCLUDE the slaves in the North From Freedom "as if this proclamation were never issued?" Hmmmm? If Lincoln believed in 1847 that it was "the right of any people to throw off their government in exchange for one that better suits them" then how could he believe that for any nation on earth EXCEPT the United States? In FACT, the U.S. has supported more secession movements than any other nation on earth!! If it was so right for the U.S. to support those nations, why not here? I'll tell you why!! None of those nations were funding the federal government to the tune of 80-90% like the Southern States were. Look it up in the 1860 census!!

Jefferson Davis said: " The condition of slavery with us is, in a word, Mr. President, nothing but the form of civil government instituted for a class of people not fit to govern themselves. It is exactly what in every State exists in some form or other. It is just that kind of control which is extended in every northern State over its convicts, its lunatics, its minors, its apprentices. It is but a form of civil government for those who by their nature are not fit to govern themselves. We recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race of men by the Creator, and from the cradle to the grave, our Government, as a civil institution, marks that inferiority." - He said this in the Senate Chamber of the U.S. Capitol on February 29, 1860.

Jefferson Davis was a staunch believer in states' rights. It was his interpretation of the constitution, his belief that the United States was a voluntary union of sovereign states, that actually led him to become the president of the confederacy. In the years leading up to Mississippi's break with the union, the northern states and the federal government were submitting the southern states to abnormal pressure. Basically, the federal government saw the southern states as captive consumers of the northern factories. When the southern states looked overseas for trade, the northern companies through their congressional influence imposed biased tax laws upon the southern consumers. Finally, the south said "we've had enough". The south sent a representative body to Washington, seeking an audience to discuss peaceful resolutions, but President Lincoln refused to see them.

The south did not declare, nor did they fight, a civil war. By definition, in simple terms, a civil conflict is where one party tries to overthrow the government of another party. The southern confederacy did not try to overthrow the US federal government. the southern states simply wanted to be left alone, to pursue a government that they thought was more just. Rather than look for a peaceful resolution, the federal government knew that the confederate states produced over 75% of the agricultural products of the United States. The federal government did not want to relinquish control over that much prosperity.

How does this relate to Jefferson Davis' view of slavery? Simple. Slavery was part of the economic condition in the south. Davis viewed slaves as property and defended his stance by citing the constitution. But Davis also knew the obvious immoral problem of slavery. He was, as was most of the southern plantation owners, struggling with the solution. In a letter to his brother Joe, Davis described some of his views on slavery, writing, "in order for a slave to be made fit for freedom, he must first be made unfit for slavery." Davis knew this could only be done through education. But the immediate problem with the formation of the confederacy and the position that the federal government took when it came to heavy-handed governing, caused his public position on slavery to take a back seat.

In one of his speeches, Davis is credited with telling either the US congress or the congress of the confederacy (I can't find the document and I don't remember which speech) that slavery would disappear from this country within two more generations, perhaps sooner.

Some of the biggest benefactors of slavery were the owners of Northern shipping lines. THAT's why Northern slaves weren't freed by the Emancipation Proclamation!! So don't be too quick to judge the South. Slavery was, and is, an appalling practice that scarred the lives of so many. The world has evolved in many ways, and many of the practices in the history of our planet were barbarous. It is not difficult to understand that our part of the world had to go through the same evolutionary changes. Hopefully we have learned from our past.

It should be mentioned that in late 1864, Davis was prepared to abolish slavery in exchange for European diplomatic recognition in order to save the Confederacy. Davis informed Confederate congressional leaders of his intentions, and then sent Duncan Kenner to Europe to make the proposal. Davis even made Kenner a minister plenipotentiary so as to ensure he could make the proposal to the British and French governments and that it would be taken seriously.

Jefferson Davis treated blacks with respect and received their respect in return. Critics will reply that Davis believed in white supremacy. But these critics almost never explain that nearly all Americans in that day believed the same thing. This was true of the average man on the street right up to the nation's leaders in all parts of the country.

As for the expansion of slavery, Davis believed it should be left up to the individual territory or state to decide for itself and not be decided by the government or any section of the country. The nearly worldwide belief that slaves were indeed property lead to Davis' (and the South's) belief that, if a slave owner, North OR South, traveled into a non slave-holding territory or state, that his slaves were still his property. It was no different than taking your horse from Georgia to New York, it still belonged to you, even if somebody disagreed with you on it, and that you had the right to take it with you when you left. It was Property!!


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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2011, 05:23:28 AM »
- Southernbygrace -

So what is your point in all that? Lincoln was the bad guy and Davis was the good guy?  The north started a bad war?  The war should have been called anything but Civil???

All mute points in my opinion, what's done is done, history has been written.  Weather Lincoln had good intentions about freeing slaves or protecting the best interests of the north makes no difference.  Slavery was abolished, and the unity of Country was restored.  If it didn't happen then it would have happened some where down the line.
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2011, 06:48:10 AM »
- Southernbygrace -

the unity of Country was restored. 

Only on paper was "unity" restored. Nearly all people born and raised in the north feel that the civil war was necessary and just. That’s what they are told in the class room. Most people from the north tend to be more liberal, it always fascinated me that the death of hundreds of thousands of people (including pure innocents) are justified in their minds to bring "unity" and emancipation. Yet, the death penalty is seen as barbaric to these same people. I'm clearly in the minority as a northerner. I think Lincoln was nothing more than a murderous pig that violated our constitution and the sovereign rights of the states. Booth's assassination of Lincoln was true justice and unity has never been restored. The history books are wrought with the pure lies and half truths of the victors. The South has never been given any justice in the class room history books. Until this happens, there will can never be any real unity around the truth. For generations yet to come there will be descendants of Confederate troops who will likely never give into the Northern propaganda or the half truth history books.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2011, 07:22:51 AM »
- Southernbygrace -

So what is your point in all that? Lincoln was the bad guy and Davis was the good guy?  The north started a bad war?  The war should have been called anything but Civil???

All mute points in my opinion, what's done is done, history has been written.  Weather Lincoln had good intentions about freeing slaves or protecting the best interests of the north makes no difference.  Slavery was abolished, and the unity of Country was restored.  If it didn't happen then it would have happened some where down the line.


To me the point is that the history that has been written is not the full history.  We see in the texts and in popular culture that there was no cause but slavery behind some of the southern states leaving the Union.  That, in spite of there being nothing in the Constitution about there being a binding , unbreakable, perpetual union, and no wording to prohibit any state from leaving it, no state had any right to leave the union. 
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2011, 09:29:13 AM »
The states joined the Union at their own free will. Implicit in "free will" is their ability to withdraw if they so choose to do so just like in marriage. Lincoln had no Constitutional authority to wage war for reunification. It was simply his desire to reunite the Union for whatever reasons.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2011, 01:45:46 PM »
The states joined the Union at their own free will. Implicit in "free will" is their ability to withdraw if they so choose to do so just like in marriage. Lincoln had no Constitutional authority to wage war for reunification. It was simply his desire to reunite the Union for whatever reasons.

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Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2011, 03:28:43 AM »
- Southernbygrace -

So what is your point in all that? Lincoln was the bad guy and Davis was the good guy?  The north started a bad war?  The war should have been called anything but Civil???

All mute points in my opinion, what's done is done, history has been written.  Weather Lincoln had good intentions about freeing slaves or protecting the best interests of the north makes no difference.  Slavery was abolished, and the unity of Country was restored.  If it didn't happen then it would have happened some where down the line.

Buckskin, why are you even here? If you can't see "the point in all that", what is your purpose in this forum? If you think these are all moot points, what is YOUR point? What is YOUR argument?

MY point is just what Subdjoe said in reply #43, in that 98% of the history that has been written is a Lie!  OUR point in this forum is to show the TRUTH, as it happened, why it happened, where it happened, and who made it happen.   :)

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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2011, 05:29:24 AM »

MY point is just what Subdjoe said in reply #43, in that 98% of the history that has been written is a Lie!  OUR point in this forum is to show the TRUTH, as it happened, why it happened, where it happened, and who made it happen.   :)
My point was in my last post.

It was a simple question, sorry for not seeing your side of it.  Forgive me but for someone to interpret history as 98% false and push their opinions of the matter into "facts" is a hard pill to swallow.  I happened on this topic and was curious in the content, so that is why I am here.
I believe this is a public forum, even for a "Northerner" to express his opinions.  But I'm sure there are other associations that you can join if you would like to exclude other views. ;)

Cabin -
I'm as conservative as they come and am all for the death penalty. 
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2011, 05:44:12 AM »
Buckskin is a classic example of just how warped the history books are. He can't even conceive or understand concept of the South having a valid position or argument on anything. Its not so much that the history books are 98% wrong, its more like they are missing 50% of the information.

For most Northerners it requires a revelation of facts (the missing 50%) and those facts have never been presented to them in a formal environment. So when they come to an internet forum of regular people who are advancing information that contradicts the entire concept that they have been brainwashed with for many years, it just takes time for it to sink in. Some will eventually get it but most never will. Those that don’t will always use the slavery issue as their ultimate back-stop argument and they will point to the history books that lack 50% of the facts.
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Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2011, 06:38:44 AM »
Cabin:    Fort Sumtner was federal government territory.  It did not belong to South Carolina any more than Yellowstone Park belongs to Wyoming.  By your logic, if Cuba fires on our Gantanamo Base, the U.S. will be the cause because we have not withdrawn from Cuba when Castro's communist government took over.

Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2011, 06:49:33 AM »
Cabin:  I must assume you consider Shelby Foote to be retarded as he considered Lincoln to be a genius. 

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2011, 07:04:53 AM »
Cabin:    Fort Sumtner was federal government territory.  It did not belong to South Carolina any more than Yellowstone Park belongs to Wyoming.  By your logic, if Cuba fires on our Gantanamo Base, the U.S. will be the cause because we have not withdrawn from Cuba when Castro's communist government took over.

If South Carolina succeeded from the Union, and it did, then Fort Sumter would no longer be Northern "Federal" land. Federal no longer has jurisdiction on the Confederate land. Based on your definition, the US could pass legislation naming any land "Federal" and lay permanent claim to it even if it is not part of the US. If secession cannot break an arrangement like this then I don’t know what would?? If the Confederacy passed a law laying claim to Northern territory then do you agree that that would have become permanent Confederate land? As far as Gantanamo goes, I think we should pack our bags and go home. What right does the US have to Cuban land unless the Cubans don’t want it? The US was asked to leave Clark AFB when the arrangement came to term and we did. Turned it back over to the Philippines! I suppose you would agree that if some other country decided to pass a law laying claim to what is currently international waters, you would agree that the US should simply comply? Of are these laws of claim only applicable if they come from Washington?
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2011, 07:17:25 AM »
Cabin:  I must assume you consider Shelby Foote to be retarded as he considered Lincoln to be a genius. 

I'm responsible for starting and waging an illegal and unnecessary war. I invaded neighboring states and hundreds of thousands of people were killed including innocent men, women and children. I violated the constitutional laws of my country and forced these neighboring states to be annexed back into a Union that they nor their people wanted. I threw news reporters in prison so they could no longer print the truth about what was really going on. I took office without any mandate or legislation to perform these acts. This makes me a genius, Abraham Lincoln and validated by the none other than Shelby Foote!

Instead of asking me this question, why don’t you ask this of a KIA confederate soldiers descendant or the descendant of a southern civilian killed by Union troops.   
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Offline Buckskin

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2011, 07:54:35 AM »
Buckskin is a classic example of just how warped the history books are. He can't even conceive or understand concept of the South having a valid position or argument on anything. Its not so much that the history books are 98% wrong, its more like they are missing 50% of the information.

A lot of off the cuff percentages being thrown around here as fact... I can understand that the south may have had a valid position, what I can't understand is why the south is still holding on to the bitterness of the war.  Japan and the American Indians have less resentment against the US than you do.  War is hell, and all is fair in love and war.  Do you really think that the north and south could have lived together as two separate unions?  And who would claim the west? I'm sure that would have been decided over a couple beers and a game of cricket...

So again I will ask. What do you want to happen?  An appolgy from the decendants of Lincoln? The history books re-written?  The south to be allowed to succeed from the US? What???
Buckskin

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Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2011, 08:13:41 AM »
This was EXISTING federal government land.  It was not the Federal govt.  passing a law annexing land from a state or a foreign entity. The U.S. could have chosen to tuck its tail and given up the land but didn't.  South Carolina attacked the military base and started the war.  If SC hadn't fired on Fort Sumtner, who knows what might have happened.

You could argue that California should still be part of Mexico.  Mexico "sold" to to the U.S. after the Mexican War before we just passed a law to take it from them.
 
I concur that we should get out of many of our current foreign military bases.  It would help cut our deficit.

Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2011, 08:29:50 AM »

I'm responsible for starting and waging an illegal and unnecessary war. I invaded neighboring states and hundreds of thousands of people were killed including innocent men, women and children. I violated the constitutional laws of my country and forced these neighboring states to be annexed back into a Union that they nor their people wanted. I threw news reporters in prison so they could no longer print the truth about what was really going on. I took office without any mandate...   

At first I thought you were talking G.W. Bush.  ;D

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2011, 08:49:51 AM »
Buckskin is a classic example of just how warped the history books are. He can't even conceive or understand concept of the South having a valid position or argument on anything. Its not so much that the history books are 98% wrong, its more like they are missing 50% of the information.

A lot of off the cuff percentages being thrown around here as fact... I can understand that the south may have had a valid position, what I can't understand is why the south is still holding on to the bitterness of the war.  Japan and the American Indians have less resentment against the US than you do.  War is hell, and all is fair in love and war.  Do you really think that the north and south could have lived together as two separate unions?  And who would claim the west? I'm sure that would have been decided over a couple beers and a game of cricket...

So again I will ask. What do you want to happen?  An appolgy from the decendants of Lincoln? The history books re-written?  The south to be allowed to succeed from the US? What???

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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2011, 09:14:56 AM »
This was EXISTING federal government land.  It was not the Federal govt.  passing a law annexing land from a state or a foreign entity. The U.S. could have chosen to tuck its tail and given up the land but didn't.  South Carolina attacked the military base and started the war.  If SC hadn't fired on Fort Sumtner, who knows what might have happened.

Please quote me chapter and verse from the US Constitution which allows the Federal government to invade a State, no matter what it does, in a rebellous act. You can't, it isn't there! Find it in the Federalist Papers, you can't it isn't there! What is a fact and it's on record in the minutes of the Constitutional Meeting is that James Madison in a speech on this very question, brought up by one of the members, to be added into our Constitution caused the defeat of said motion. So, no matter what the cause the federal Government had/has no right to use the sword against its own citizens. And I might add anyone who places any value on human life would think to do so would be totally crazy! And Madison's remarks reflect that very sentiment.

Don't have to believe me, I posted these very facts in another post in this very forum! The forum which some here claim we throw around assumptions as if they were facts while they only post facts.

No sir The Law is the law and we are a nation of laws or we are not. Lincoln, a lawyer, broke not only the law of the land but also his oath of office and there by trashed the very foundation this Nation was built upon.

I had to come back and add there were several many rebellous acts before and all were handled without a Federal troop invasion or the killing of ANY innocent parties!
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
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Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2011, 09:23:16 AM »
George Washington established many precedents as the first POTUS.  Among them was leading an army into Pennsylvania to put down the Whisky Rebellion.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2011, 09:30:27 AM »
He did not attack the state but only the law breakers themselves.

Which does not answer my question or is your only mission to answer a question with another question.

BTW Washington was a human being and no man takes precedence over the law! Or then there is no law!
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP