Author Topic: Let’s not spin the Civil War  (Read 9950 times)

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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2011, 08:27:19 AM »
Foote discredited himself by claiming the largest mass murderer and constitutional violator in American history (Lincoln) was a genius. If he would have qualified this as Evil Genius, then I would agree. But he did not!

If becoming a genius means killing hundreds of thousands and violating the law, then you have issues to deal with on your own. Hitler, Stalin, Mousolini, all genius to some..........
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2011, 10:59:52 AM »
You are attempting  discredit Foote character for getting drummed out of the army for taking a jeep to travel a couple of miles to visit his wife/girl friend.  He wrote 3 extensive volumes on the subject.  I will acknowledge McPherson's generally accepted bias. And why should I accept the opinion of a "man who breaks wind" over noted historical researchers? ;D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Dang, why the *** would I ask you to my accept my opinion on anything? BTW I've seen many an act pulled to get out of going to war, you believe what you will, as will I. Call him hero if you like; my name for him can't be printed on this forum and you will not find me using his trash as fact for anything I submit on this or anyother forum.

As for discredit to his name, he did that job well enough, he needs no help from me!

All I want is for all of the facts of our history to be known and acknowledged. While opinions can be stated, without knowing the full facts behind them, and also showing them gives no creadence to the stated opinions ;).
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2011, 11:21:57 AM »

All I want is for all of the facts of our history to be known and acknowledged. While opinions can be stated, without knowing the full facts behind them, and also showing them gives no creadence to the stated opinions ;).

GIVE THE MAN A KEWPIE DOLL!  Right in the center of the X with that comment.

But, when the apologists for "Honest" Abe are faced with uncomfortable facts about what he and his generals did, they fall back to the 5th grade history textbook mantra of "The South had slavery and therefore was evil" as if that explains everything. 
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2011, 11:34:34 AM »
Simply letting all the facts emerge is something the Lincoln lovers hate. It proves they are either ignorant of the facts or places them in the uncomfortable position of having to agree to criticize a man who has been commonly accepted as a hero for the past 150 years. They fear accepting the truth may paint them as racist and slavery lovers. They don’t know how to deal with this but I can tell you the Lincoln lovers are reading this and questioning their historical position. They know Lincoln was a murder but their intellectual reflexes simply won’t allow them to admit it, yet.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2011, 04:44:35 PM »

At the surrender at Appomattox Courthouse, Grant, heeding Lincoln's injunction for a tender peace now that the war was close at hand, treated Lee's defeated army with extraordinary generosity, not as hated foes but as brothers to be embraced. The most poignant moment of this most poignant of days came after the instruments of surrender were signed, and an emotion-choked Lee mounted his horse Traveler and let out a long, deep sigh. In a brilliant masterstroke, Grant walked out onto the porch of the Wilmer McLean house and, in front of all his officers and men, silently raised his hat to the man who just that morning had been his ardent adversary, saluting him as an honored comrade - a gesture quickly echoed by innumerable other Union officers.

This one small act would loom large in the months to come, rippling out into every corner of the South and setting a tone for the healing that was so critical if the country were "to bind up" its wounds, as Lincoln so eloquently put it. And lest anyone mistake the importance of reconciliation for both sides, Lee would later remark: "I surrendered as much to Lincoln's goodness as I did to Grant's armies."


http://www.jcs-group.com/military/war1861.html

My bet is that Lee was in a better position to judge Lincoln then we are today.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2011, 05:37:47 PM »
IF, I would say that was Lee being the gracious Southern gentleman that he was.  Unless of course you want to compare it to this:

"Governor, if I had foreseen the use these people desired to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox, no, sir, not by me. Had I seen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand."
    --- General Robert E. Lee, CSA - as told to Texas ex-governor F. W. Stockdale
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2011, 06:02:18 PM »

At the surrender at Appomattox Courthouse, Grant, heeding Lincoln's injunction for a tender peace now that the war was close at hand, treated Lee's defeated army with extraordinary generosity, not as hated foes but as brothers to be embraced. The most poignant moment of this most poignant of days came after the instruments of surrender were signed, and an emotion-choked Lee mounted his horse Traveler and let out a long, deep sigh. In a brilliant masterstroke, Grant walked out onto the porch of the Wilmer McLean house and, in front of all his officers and men, silently raised his hat to the man who just that morning had been his ardent adversary, saluting him as an honored comrade - a gesture quickly echoed by innumerable other Union officers.

This one small act would loom large in the months to come, rippling out into every corner of the South and setting a tone for the healing that was so critical if the country were "to bind up" its wounds, as Lincoln so eloquently put it. And lest anyone mistake the importance of reconciliation for both sides, Lee would later remark: "I surrendered as much to Lincoln's goodness as I did to Grant's armies."


http://www.jcs-group.com/military/war1861.html

My bet is that Lee was in a better position to judge Lincoln then we are today.

Likely he made that comment for the same reason Forrest said this:

Quote
Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men. The attempt made to establish a separate and independent Confederation has failed; but the consciousness of having done your duty faithfully, and to the end, will, in some measure, repay for the hardships you have undergone. In bidding you farewell, rest assured that you carry with you my best wishes for your future welfare and happiness. Without, in any way, referring to the merits of the Cause in which we have been engaged, your courage and determination, as exhibited on many hard-fought fields, has elicited the respect and admiration of friend and foe. And I now cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge my indebtedness to the officers and men of my command whose zeal, fidelity and unflinching bravery have been the great source of my past success in arms. I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous. N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General
Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps
Gainesville, Alabama
May 9, 1865

And then later, to the forerunner of the ACLU:

Quote
"Ladies and Gentlemen, I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the Southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. (Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man, to depress none.

I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand."

Both recognized the need to try to heal the breach and bad feelings left by the War.  Unlike the US Congress.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2011, 06:04:42 PM »
Back to the subject of this thread - it is much too late to not spin the Civil War, since it was 'spun' with the Emancipation Proclamation, and the subsequent history books. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2011, 06:06:58 PM »
Nice steer away from the anti-Lincoln propaganda Subdjoe.  {;-)/
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Smoke-um if you got-um

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2011, 08:44:38 PM »
To all - I've just spent the last 55 minutes reading this entire post(s) and re-reading some that I found particularly interesting.  My own opinion on the subject will remain just that, my own.  Politics and religion are, and perhaps always will be, topics of passionate debate and not to be entered into lightly and/or without substantial knowledge of the subject matter.  I've truly enjoyed the exchange of facts and opinions and will say that my "knowledge" on the topic has now been substantially increased.  As far as entering into the debate, I will only say that my "opinion" may have been swayed, or perhaps more accurately described as moderated, compared to my thoughts on the subject previously.   I say again ,I enjoyed it very much and I thank you all.
Mike on the Mason-Dixon Line.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #100 on: January 05, 2011, 11:29:46 PM »
To all - I've just spent the last 55 minutes reading this entire post(s) and re-reading some that I found particularly interesting.  My own opinion on the subject will remain just that, my own.  Politics and religion are, and perhaps always will be, topics of passionate debate and not to be entered into lightly and/or without substantial knowledge of the subject matter.  I've truly enjoyed the exchange of facts and opinions and will say that my "knowledge" on the topic has now been substantially increased.  As far as entering into the debate, I will only say that my "opinion" may have been swayed, or perhaps more accurately described as moderated, compared to my thoughts on the subject previously.   I say again ,I enjoyed it very much and I thank you all.
Mike on the Mason-Dixon Line.

Smoke-um if you got-um, Welcome.

If we have "increased your Knowledge" we have done our duty. The right or wrong of some act carried out 150 years ago is in Gods hands as it well should be.

Our mission is to dissiminate the whole truth, as the facts show them to be, both the good and bad! Our BAR was set very high by the just quoted Lt-G N.B. Forrest, our own beloved Grey Ghost. Of course we all have our own opinions and sometimes thru heated debate allow them to come to the fore. A defect this poster continues to fight dayly because I see my duty as fact teacher first and formost. As one person so very long ago said "Countrymen lend me your ear, I come to bury Caesar not to praise him!" Again I bid you welcome!
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2011, 07:40:37 AM »
The quote attributed to Lee might nver have happened.



"T. C. Johnson: Life and Letters of Robert Lewis Dabney, 498 ff. Doctor Dabney was not present and received his account of the meeting from Governor Stockdale. The latter told Dabney that he was the last to leave the room, and that as he was saying good-bye, Lee closed the door, thanked him for what he had said and added: "Governor, if I had foreseen the use these people desired to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox, no, sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand." This, of course, is second-hand testimony. There is nothing in Lee's own writings and nothing in direct quotation by first-hand witness that accords with such an expression on his part. The nearest approach to it is the claim by H. Gerald Smythe that "Major Talcott" — presumably Colonel T. M. R. Talcott — told him Lee stated he would never have surrendered the army if he had known how the South would have been treated. Mr. Smythe stated that Colonel Talcott replied, "Well, General, you have only to blow the bugle," whereupon Lee is alleged to have answered, "It is too late now" (29 Confederate Veteran, 7). Here again the evidence is not direct. The writer of this biography, talking often with Colonel Talcott, never heard him narrate this incident or suggest in any way that Lee accepted the results of the radical policy otherwise than with indignation, yet in the belief that the extremists would not always remain in office. For these reasons the writer is unwilling to quote this doubtful testimony in the text."


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/People/Robert_E_Lee/FREREL/4/21*.html
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Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2011, 08:22:33 AM »
I ask the indulgence of Ga.windbreak, subdjoe, Cabin4, and any other regulars in this forum who already know my ancestry and background on this subject. I don't want to bore you guys by repeating this for the umpteenth time, because you already know it, so please bear with me.This is intended for any newcomers who may not know these things about me, but have the assumption that I (along with most of the regulars in this forum) am "bitter" about the outcome of the War and its after affects, and simply cannot understand why Southerners Still have such animosity toward Northerners, even after 150 years... it is my hope that you guys come away from this with a little different perspective than you have right now.

Fellas, I have a very unique perspective on this War and its aftermath. I'm only 44 years old, and Civil War ancestors of most people my age are at least 5 or 6 generations ago. I graduated high school with 6 people (also my age) whose Civil War ancestors are 8 generations ago. In the South, we call this "generations removed." So these 6 people are 8 generations removed from the Civil War. The uniqueness of my situation is that I am only 3 generations removed from the War. That's right, 3. Before you start screaming, "That's not possible," let me show you that it IS.

I was born in 1966, making me 44, soon to be 45.
In fact, I was born on the 100th Anniversary of Confederate Memorial Day.  ;D

My father was born in 1940. Nothing remarkable there, except he was the youngest out of 16!! His 2 oldest sisters (my aunts) were born in 1897 and 1898.

His father, my grandfather, was born in 1876 and he was 64 years old when my father was born. He had 14 siblings.

His father, my great grandfather, was born in 1849. He had 11 siblings. He was 12 years old when the War started. He was denied entry into the Confederate Army 3 times, due to his age. He married in early 1864, just after he turned 15. By mid-summer, he had built his own house and was expecting their 1st child (my grandfather's oldest brother, my oldest great-uncle), with 14 more to follow. In September of 1864, after his 4th attempt, he was allowed to join Co. H of the 11th Georgia Infantry, only because he was married and had his own residence. He completed his military training in October. We all know (or should know) what else happened in Georgia in November 1864. The entire 11th Georgia Infantry was merged with the Army of Northern Virginia and my Great-Grandfather was sent to fight under General Robert E. Lee, less than 2 weeks before General Sherman reached Southeast Georgia on his way to Savannah. He fought at the Siege of Petersburg, and was among General Lee's forces that were surrendered in April 1865. He had a 19 year old brother that was killed at the Battle of the Wilderness. His body was never found and he wasn't listed as a POW. He had 5 brothers who fought that were not wounded at all.
   His 2 oldest brothers were severely mangled in battle (one had his left jaw shot off, the other had his right shoulder blown off). They were both at home recovering and bedridden when Sherman came through. Neither man could even stand up, but Sherman had them arrested as Prisoners of War, and they were loaded onto wagons, and carried some 90 miles on the last leg of Sherman's March to The Sea. They were under the constant care of the plantation's doctor until they were literally kidnapped. Neither man could defend himself, or his family and home, from what was about to happen to them at the hands of Sherman's men, on Sherman's orders. Their homes were burned to the ground. Sherman didn't want civilians, women and children and the elderly to have any food, so they shot the livestock and allowed the animals to lay there and rot, because Sherman didn't need them as food since he was so close to Savannah. They took or destroyed all the farming equipment and tools that could be used to grow food. All of the grain stores were either burned or looted. Remember, this was late November, and the South's coldest winter on record.
   Most of the regulars in this forum will remember my posts from around a year or so ago, from my Great-Grandmother's journals, where she described how Union soldiers shot two young slave boys in the back while running across a field to warn their families (both white and black) on a neighboring plantation. My GGM described consoling the boys' mother and took her and her mistress into her home until after the War. She described her feelings on what was happening in great detail, right down to her statement of "I think I would like to meet this Yankee general Sherman. I should like to look upon the face of a man who possesses no soul... How can another human being treat descent people this way?" She was not describing her white neighbors, she was describing the slaughter of those two unarmed boys, one of which was only 12 years old and a close friend to her brother, the other was 17 and was a friend to my GGF. It didn't matter that those boys were slaves, they were considered descent people in Southern society. Even Slaves were expected to be treated with respect and dignity, and they received it in return because they were literally part of the fabric of what it means to be a part of a Southern family. They were not beaten every day to "keep them in their place." They were considered part of the family and they were treated that way. My Great Grandparents' home was the only one in the family that was not burned, only because it was off the beaten track. The Union soldiers didn't know it was there because it was only a few months old and there wasn't yet a road leading to it.  
   My two Great-Uncles were severely beaten in an attempt to extract information that they could not possibly posses. Both men were privates and had been out of the War for more than a month. One couldn't even speak anyway because of his injuries. Both men were denied any further medical treatment for their injuries, including the injuries inflicted by Sherman's men. The one with his jaw shot off died just before Sherman reached Savannah. He wouldn't even allow him to be buried. His brother, who was in the same wagon, later wrote about how, when asked what they should do with the body, General Sherman personally told his men to "just throw the damn traitor on the side of the road and leave him there. He's of no use to us anymore."
  The other one (with his shoulder blown away) made it to Savannah with Sherman's troops where, a week later, he was put on a train and sent to the Union POW Camp at Elmira, NY. His arm was amputated only because of the stench of the wound. Remember, he had been denied any medical treatment up to that point. He survived the war and returned home, but he died from malnutrition and pneumonia three months later. There simply was not enough food to go around because of what Sherman did to the Families of Georgia and South Carolina. This was not war, it was meticulously calculated murder of the unarmed civilian population. These acts were not only known by the upper echelon within the Federal Government, they were supported and approved of, all the way up to Abraham Lincoln, himself. If I have to show you proof, I can and will.
   My family owned seven separate farms made up from adjoining land in three counties. They combined their resources to create a single plantation of more than 7,500 acres that stretched some 30 miles, from north to south. They owned somewhere between 70 and 100 slaves all together. Sometimes more, sometimes less. They kept very detailed records of births, deaths, sicknesses, and even those who were freed. My family maintained such a close relationship with their slaves that, after the War ended, none of them left the plantation. They all decided to remain at "their home place." They were mentioned often in various diaries and journals being kept at the time, especially my Great-Grandmother's, and always with respect. In fact, more former slaves moved there to live after the War. My Great-Grandfather became the predominant owner of the land and he actually gave the family's former slaves large parcels of land, free and clear, as reward for "their devoted service to the family." Some of those families still live on that land to this day. I know them well, and they are dear friends of my family, even today. One particular descendant of those slaves (Willie - seriously, his real name) is the same age as my baby brother, and we were all in high school together (they were in 9th grade, I was a senior). He has our last name and everyone there knew this. One day there was a good sized group of us (about 15 or so) just standing around talking after lunch. This one boy asked Willie why his last name was the same as mine and my brother's. Without any hesitation or reservation, he boldly told him, "because his family used to own my family." You could have heard a pin drop on the sand where we were standing. Willie asked them what the problem was. He wasn't ashamed of his heritage, why should they be? Several years ago, I was visiting Willie and his family when his grandfather started telling stories that had been passed down about what my family had done to help his family. I told him that, not only were those stories true, but I had come to give him copies of those journals and records proving they were true. He wept like you wouldn't believe. They had all heard the stories, including Willie, but to see the documents where there ancestors' births and deaths were recorded, was a very humbling experience for those people.  
   My family history has been successfully traced back to the year 1140, in detail. The records my family kept from the 1800's have afforded me a very rare opportunity to look back in time and see the TRUTH of how life was back then. Were some slaves abused? Of course, but just as some children are abused, should we look at all parents a child abusers? While I know that less than 6% of all Southerners held slaves, and that the vast majority of those who did have slaves actually owned, on average, less than 6, Northerners don't want to hear that. You have to understand that every time we turn on the TV to watch a "documentary" about the War, or every time there is a movie put out about the War, all that is ever portrayed is the horrid abuse of slaves on some big plantation, and the master whipping his slaves for the most mundane offense, or the brutal rape of some slave girl by her drunken master. While most Southerners are not stupid enough to think these kinds of things Never happened, neither are they stupid enough to be "taught" that they happened on such a scale as what I just described. But the vast majority of Americans actually believe this to be the normal day-to-day of all Southerners.
   While I know that 11 of the 23 Northern states had state mandated laws forbidding free blacks from living in those states, I also know that not one single Southern state ever had such a law. I also know that Northerners were FOR slavery, so long as it was profitable to Them, and that the so-called "abolitionists" wanted the Southern slaves freed, so long as they didn't come North, but when have you ever heard or read, or seen on TV how Evil the North was for having slavery? I would wager you have Never heard it. Back then, Northerners believed if they merely called their own system of slavery something that sounded more civilized, like indentured servitude, it was perfectly alright and just. But those evil Southerners had to be dealt with, no matter what. Rest assured, gentleman, I don't give a rat's ass WHAT you call it, indentured servitude is STILL SLAVERY!!!! And if the South was so Evil for having slavery, then BY GOD so was the North!
   There isn't room here to write about all I have learned from my family's records. But you guys need to know, to understand, that what you have been taught in government schools about this War and its causes is for the most part WRONG. This war happened Here, in the South, to Us, to Our ancestors, in Our homes and Our towns, and to Our economy. What you perceive as "Bitterness" on my part, while I, in particular, and Southerners, in general certainly have every right to BE Bitter, is simply frustration in trying to get people to see the Truth of this War. I don't see any spin in what we are posting here. I can show you documented proof of everything I write in this forum. So can all the other regulars.
  I will sum up my frustrations this way...
Legend has it that, during the Battle of the Crater in 1864, while the Rebels were shooting down into the multitude of Yankee soldiers, one Rebel asked a Yankee, "Why don't you Yankees just surrender, and you won't have to die like this?" The Yankee hollered back at the Rebel, "Why don't you LET us!?!" I get asked by people all the time, including many blacks, "if you know all this and you have proof of it, why don't you just show it to everybody, then maybe they would understand?" Every time, I answer them just like that Yankee down in that hole, "Why don't you LET us?" For the most part, any organization using the Confederate Battle Flag as its symbol is automatically assumed to be racist in nature, so they must be affiliated with the KKK or something. Nowadays, many Southern cities won't allow Confederate reenactors to take part in parades or festivals.
   People, it is ILLEGAL to fly a Confederate flag in the World's largest Confederate Cemetery in Atlanta, Georgia, even during a grave dedication or a memorial ceremony!!! A Confederate soldier can't have even one of those little 3" flags on his grave. They have law enforcement posted in the cemetery to ARREST anyone who displays anything with a Confederate flag on it while in a Confederate cemetery!!!        
   Call it Bitterness if you want to. I call it frustration at how Southerners were treated back then, and how we are still being treated today, even after 150 years. Bitter? No, I'm not bitter. I'm tired of being beaten back down every time I turn around because of pilitical incorrectness.

SouthernByGrace

DEO VINDICE
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2011, 10:40:55 AM »
Nice steer away from the anti-Lincoln propaganda Subdjoe.  {;-)/

Love it, post things that show that Lincoln wasn't the pure saint that pop culture claims he was, and that the South wasn't filled with nothing but slave owning bigots and it is "propaganda."   
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

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Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2011, 04:19:36 PM »
Contrary to the distortions of some, I never said Shelby Foote was a hero but rather a scholarly historian who researched  and wrote an extensive history of the Civil War and therefore has an opinion that holds merit as does the writing of Bruce Catton.  To interpret that as  "having to "fall on your knees and praise Lincoln" is a figment of a Jefferson Davis lover's mind.

War is hell.  The Civil War was particularly brutal because of weaponry, tactics, etc.  There have been a multitude of barbaric things that have happened in the history of warfare.  I do not claim any of them to be right whether it happened at Kings Mountain, Atlanta or My Lai.  Do the "Lincoln Haters" also contain hate for Truman and his A-bomb decision?  The object of war is to win and it often is pretty.

It was said that because seceding states signed the Constitution they had a right to sign off.  The majority of seceding states were created from Federal territory

My question has yet to be answered.  Did people in seceding states have U.S. Constitutional rights when the declared themselves to be citizens of another nation? Or was firing on FT. Sumtner an act of treason?  It was levying war and there were 2 witnesses.

Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2011, 04:46:23 PM »
 I respect the fact that your family treated their slaves kindly as I know many slave owners did.  I also can appreciate your knowledge of your families history.  However, you can't make a blanket statement that "northerners were for slavery".  Frederick Douglas and Harriet Tubman certainly weren't.  The ancestors of Nat Turner, the slaves at Stono River would tell a different story about slavery  As would Manuel Andry and those other 100 slaves who's heads were put on poles outside New Orleans.  They wouldn't have rebeled if they had such wonderful lives.

You are right that there were racists Northerners who supported/tolerated slavery. And there were slaves in the north particularly in Kentucky and Maryland.  Indentured servitude was diffenent than slavery. It was a way for the poor to come to America.   They voluteered for it to pay for their passage to America and there was a 5 to 7 year limit to their contract.  They also couldn't be sold and their children weren't destined to be indentured.  They weren't taking wedding vows "until death or distance do us part".

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2011, 05:31:02 PM »
Lincoln still thought they were US citizens.

The states were created as just that, individual states with a legal standing that is greater and more authoritative than the federal level per our constitution. The fed is simply suppose to be a consolidated "union" were the states bring their issues for representation in foreign affairs and issues that undeniably connect them because of their borders. Look at our legislative branch, it’s all state representation of nearly 500 electected congressional reps. 50 state governors and thousands of state and locally elected reps. There is only 1 federally elected official in this entire union. Its suppose to be a cooperative, not a dictatorship over the states. 10th Amendment ratified 1791:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Again, the states joined at free will, they can leave at free will. The president has no authority to force a state to remain in this union. If the union was to be created by pure federal mandate, the states simply would have been annexed under some other federal act, not asked to join & ratify. If the Union was a federal mandate, then Lincoln’s wage of war would have had some legal standing. But when you add up that the ratification was an option for the states and the 10th amendment, the war by Lincoln was illegal.

Union troops in Ft Sumter was trespassing. S. Carolina elected to leave the Union and North had only one legal option, withdraw the troops. They were not welcome in S. Carolina. The fact they would not leave left them open to attack.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2011, 10:07:37 PM »
SBG, my friend, there is no need to ask. Just have at it!

Quote
Contrary to the distortions of some, I never said Shelby Foote was a hero but rather a scholarly historian who researched  and wrote an extensive history of the Civil War and therefore has an opinion that holds merit as does the writing of Bruce Catton.  To interpret that as  "having to "fall on your knees and praise Lincoln" is a figment of a Jefferson Davis lover's mind.

War is hell.  The Civil War was particularly brutal because of weaponry, tactics, etc.

I have a name, and yes I admire Jeff Davis, and no you are wrong about Shelby Foote. He wrote novels of fiction and his only flirtation with history was his three volumn set. You know you really should stick to things you know and understand.

As for answering your questions, why should I, you won't answer mine.

Another question. Just what is your experence with War? From books or have you seen the Elephant?
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

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Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2011, 01:53:18 AM »
SBG, my friend, there is no need to ask. Just have at it!

G.w, Just as I was about to post a reply, somebody drove by my house and blew their car horn and made me forget what I was gonna say... because it was Loud and it was playing DIXIE !!  ;D
What a great start to my day!!!        ;D HaHaHaHa  ;D   
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2011, 07:18:02 AM »
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2011, 08:21:29 AM »
I too have a name and I admire Abraham Lincoln, U.S Grant, Nathan Bedford Forrest and R.E. Lee.  And no, you are wrong about Shelby Foote. Writing 3 volumes and 2,877 pages on the Civil War is not a flirtation.  You just don't like what he says.  He may not be Bruce Catton but Mr. Foote is in the top 10.  I will not belittle the lack of balance in your understanding.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2011, 08:31:16 AM »
I admire Abraham Lincoln

As offensive that is, we'll try not to hold that against you forever.......
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
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Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2011, 08:45:53 AM »
Thank you, Cabin.  :)

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #113 on: January 08, 2011, 04:16:32 AM »
I too have a name and I admire Abraham Lincoln, U.S Grant, Nathan Bedford Forrest and R.E. Lee.  And no, you are wrong about Shelby Foote. Writing 3 volumes and 2,877 pages on the Civil War is not a flirtation.  You just don't like what he says.  He may not be Bruce Catton but Mr. Foote is in the top 10.  I will not belittle the lack of balance in your understanding.

And I always either quote you or refer to you by name not "Some"
or "A Jefferson Davis Lovers" when refering to something I've said. I may not agree with you but I will, if allowed, try to be respectful. If you think at any time I have not you have my apology!

If we ever meet up I would welcome a debate with you on the fair and balanced writing of the 2,877 pages as to the WHOLE truth. Opinions expressed thruout the pages do him no credit (true historians don't express opinions in their books just facts) and while his write ups of the major battles themselves is first rate he leaves much to be desired in his areas of Shermans March, you see I live here and know the truth thus I have little respect for his overall work!  I have the set and have read it twice, you have your opinion, I have mine. I fear neither will change, at least not mine.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #114 on: January 08, 2011, 10:27:46 AM »
No apology is necessary as I haven't felt offended.  You have been civil in your statements with few hints of sarcasm. I have attempted to be likewise.  I can enjoy a debate.  I agree to disagree with you on some aspects of the Civil War.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2011, 02:45:36 AM »
No apology is necessary as I haven't felt offended.  You have been civil in your statements with few hints of sarcasm. I have attempted to be likewise.  I can enjoy a debate.  I agree to disagree with you on some aspects of the Civil War.

Well said, as do I, pray continue. ;)
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2011, 01:32:59 PM »
No apology is necessary as I haven't felt offended.  You have been civil in your statements with few hints of sarcasm. I have attempted to be likewise.  I can enjoy a debate.  I agree to disagree with you on some aspects of the Civil War.

Well said, as do I, pray continue. ;)

We just have to agree give back any eyeballs that get gouged out during our comradely discussions.  And share the vodka freely.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #117 on: January 10, 2011, 12:05:58 AM »
Hear, hear!! ;D ;D ;D :o
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2011, 09:18:38 AM »
Thomas DiLorenzo is an economics professor not a historian.  He had a brief flirtation with history and Lincoln in writing his book "The Real Lincoln."  Someone who writes,"The Food & Drink Police: Americas Nannies, Busybodies and petty tyrants" can't be seriously considered as a serious Lincoln authority.  He is a crank who lives in his own little world with his own little ideas about A. Lincoln.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Let’s not spin the Civil War
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2011, 10:13:39 AM »
 If the reason Lincoln and the north entered the war was to free slaves why did it take so long to express it in a speech ? And also to free Southern slaves not northern slaves . Just asking not trying to add spin ?
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