Author Topic: Bullet Fitting-Continuing Saga (Read 3399 times)

Dand · « **Reply #30 on:** December 20, 2003, 10:35:35 AM »

Put me down as very interested, for this new bullet mould.

This is a GREAT cast bullet discussion for the 348. In a private email I told Brush buster I had a 250 gr bullet mould by Old West and wasn't likely to want another. But this forum has me fire interested. Depending on cost and all, it looks like a lot of serious thought is going into this design.

Wide meplat and shank staying within the case neck appeal to me.

Guess I should cast my chamber too.

thanks guys.

Aladin · « **Reply #31 on:** December 20, 2003, 03:03:17 PM »

"NRA book Handloading by William C. Davis"

Does anyone have a copy of this? Supposed to give the SAAMI chamber drawings for most all the calibers. I would think the 348 is in there-- or does someone know the throating specs for the 348?

I'd like to get a copy of the SAAMI drawing for a 348 chamber.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #32 on:** December 20, 2003, 03:55:05 PM »

Quote from: Aladin

"NRA book Handloading by William C. Davis"

Does anyone have a copy of this? Supposed to give the SAAMI chamber drawings for most all the calibers. I would think the 348 is in there-- or does someone know the throating specs for the 348?

I'd like to get a copy of the SAAMI drawing for a 348 chamber.

It's in the [e] mail!!!

Regards,

EDG · « **Reply #33 on:** December 20, 2003, 04:14:14 PM »

You can look at the chamber reamer dimensions at Clymer Reamers too.

Ed

Sky C. · « **Reply #34 on:** December 20, 2003, 04:31:25 PM »

Howdy all-

If needed - I have the SAAMI drawings as well out of the SAAMI publication for CF Rifles.

Spent a part of the day doing a chamber cast of my Browning M-71.

Result:
Rifling begins IMMEDIATELY at the end of the neck. The lands are tapered as they approach the neck for about .100" & then are at full height.
Length of the neck in chamber - 0.451" !!! Recall the measurements discussed earlier? BEST KEEP THE CASES TRIMMED - THERE'S NO FUDGE SPACE IN THIS CHAMBER!

Best regards-

Sky

Aladin · « **Reply #35 on:** December 20, 2003, 04:54:43 PM »

Quote from: Sky C.

Howdy all-

If needed - I have the SAAMI drawings as well out of the SAAMI publication for CF Rifles.

Spent a part of the day doing a chamber cast of my Browning M-71.

Result:
Rifling begins IMMEDIATELY at the end of the neck. The lands are tapered as they approach the neck for about .100" & then are at full height.
Length of the neck in chamber - 0.451" !!! Recall the measurements discussed earlier? BEST KEEP THE CASES TRIMMED - THERE'S NO FUDGE SPACE IN THIS CHAMBER!

Best regards-

Sky

Ok--- now I get it. I e'd Trk back asking how a 348 bullet goes thru a 346 hole.. and this is the land TOPS. The drawing shows a 1degree 30 minute angle on the land tops noted as 'basic'. How uniform that is would only be known by comparing the guns' throating.

It'd be tempting to cut a similar taper on the leading edge of the first driver... albeit slightly steeper as NOT to stick... but a good alignment feature. A very small lip going forward just to enter that taper reliably.

Really with these tight chamber specs that close an alignment isn't really necessary if some bore ride alignment is applied. Cut a DD pad out front just before the nose taper and with those close 'rudder' tolerances at the base alignment is assured.

But cutting a wider meplat means into the case with the base to maintain weight....

Aladin · « **Reply #36 on:** December 20, 2003, 05:07:17 PM »

Quote from: BrushBuster

Aladin:

When the Barnes 250 is seated to the cannelure, the bullet base is where the cartridge shoulder starts (aft).

BrushBuster just to be sure. Your saying that Barnes goes just to the origin of the neck and NOT into the case/shoulder area?

To get that wt that Barnes must have a fairly tapered nose.....?

stocker · « **Reply #37 on:** December 20, 2003, 07:42:30 PM »

Aladin: Brushbuster used the word "aft" meaning back. I think he's referring to the top of the shoulder but I don't have the Barnes bullets on hand to check with. My impression is that they would have to seat beyond the base of the neck.

Sky C. · « **Reply #38 on:** December 21, 2003, 03:09:03 AM »

Gentlemen-

Checking the Barnes manual and noting that the bullets are shown to scale - the 250gr. Barnes Original, seated to the center of the cannelure, would be seated well below the neck/shoulder junction - some .150" or so depending on case length.

Best regards-

Sky

Aladin · « **Reply #39 on:** December 21, 2003, 03:16:57 AM »

Quote from: Sky C.

Gentlemen-

Checking the Barnes manual and noting that the bullets are shown to scale - the 250gr. Barnes Original, seated to the center of the cannelure, would be seated well below the neck/shoulder junction - some .150" or so depending on case length.

Best regards-

Sky

I went to the Barnes website and could only find 200 and 220 gr bullets. Is the 250 no longer made?

I'd like to see that 250...

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #40 on:** December 21, 2003, 03:19:24 AM »

Looks like this throating is a good reason for a bore-rider. IF the COAL would work through the action.

Aladin · « **Reply #41 on:** December 21, 2003, 03:36:48 AM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer

Looks like this throating is a good reason for a bore-rider. IF the COAL would work through the action.

Tim I suggest DD-- or that forward pad mimicking a rider. Less chance of a rd being stuck with varying groove dia's and variance in alloy dia's as cast. Rider's purpose is alignment and the DD is proven for alignment.

Sky's design shows near the limits of what can be cast. Definitely well thought out-- with just minor 'tweaking' options applicable. I think I listed those options previously in this thread.

Scraper theory. This post ran on another channel-- I'm including the whole text for reference. BruceB BTW is one of the shooten-est cast boolit people there is. Rds shot in the ten's of thousands........

"I use the RCBS 416-350 in my Ruger #1 .416 Rigby with great success. To date I have likely cast around 3000 bullets from this mould.

In my straight-wheelweight alloy, it weighs 365 grains, and casts at just over .416"....the RCBS .417" sizer die barely smooths up the mould parting lines.

I've loaded it to over 2600 fps with fine accuracy, but find it's a lot more enjoyable at around 2100! XMP 5744 in charges from 40.0 to about 52.0 grains (and dacron fill) give me very nice-shooting loads in the 1800-2100 fps ballpark. Hodgdon or IMR4198 are also good candidates.

I've never hunted with this bullet, but seriously doubt that ANYTHING in North America will shrug off this bullet at 2000 fps or more. I have cast it much softer than my usual water-dropped WW on occasion, and it still shoots nice and clean without leading.

With a Hornady gascheck seated, there is VERY LITTLE shank remaining, maybe a few thousandths is all. Based on my experience, it simply doesn't matter. Even after several hundred rounds without cleaning, the .416's barrel shines like a mirror. (I make a habit of NOT cleaning the barrels of my cast-bullet rifles until they really need it, which is very seldom indeed. Once the bore is "conditioned", I hate to disturb it.)

I like the RCBS .416 design a whole bunch, as you can tell....

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)"

stocker · « **Reply #42 on:** December 21, 2003, 05:27:35 AM »

Quote from: Aladin

Quote from: Sky C.
Gentlemen-

Checking the Barnes manual and noting that the bullets are shown to scale - the 250gr. Barnes Original, seated to the center of the cannelure, would be seated well below the neck/shoulder junction - some .150" or so depending on case length.

Best regards-

Sky

I went to the Barnes website and could only find 200 and 220 gr bullets. Is the 250 no longer made?

I'd like to see that 250...

Aladin : The web site I just checked still lists the 250 grain Original.

BrushBuster · « **Reply #43 on:** December 21, 2003, 09:45:16 AM »

Aladin:
When you go to the Beartooth Bullets website, you get the following notation with their 245 grain cast for the .348:

"Chamber throats in Browning 71's are too short for this bullet"

They must know of a discrepancy between models that we haven't clicked onto yet?

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

BrushBuster · « **Reply #44 on:** December 21, 2003, 01:07:16 PM »

Ok, here goes:

Barnes Original 250 grain SP

OAL: 1.165
Ogive length: .522 (nose to front edge of cannelure)
Meplat Dia: .200

stocker · « **Reply #45 on:** December 26, 2003, 03:58:46 PM »

Aladin: I don't know that the .167 protrusion into the case will really effect much provided ammunition isn't allowed to get so old that lube migration becomes a problem.

I shoot the RCBS 30/180 FP in three different rifles, 30WCF , 30/06, and 300 Savage. This is a relatively long bullet and from wheel weights casts out about 195 with lube and check. Given the short neck of the 300 Savage this bullet is seated quite deeply into the case. It shoots very accurately from that case regardless of the bullet being well beyond any ideal condition that we normally try to achieve.

I believe Sky C has a 70 % meplat on his Ballard mold. That translates to a meplat width of slightly greater than .24. He reported a glitch in loading into the magazine that he was able to overcome with a bit of tinkering.

The nose on my RCBS molded bullet is rather short when crimped in the crimp groove. Overall length of loaded rounds with the RCBS bullet is .120 shorter than a round loaded with the Hornady 200 gr. jacketed so there is room for the nose to grow like Pinnochio's and thus pick up a bit of weight.
The Hornady is the only longer nosed bullet I have on hand for comparison. The overall loaded length of a cartridge holding the Barnes 250 original might be even greater than the Hornady. Maybe Brush Buster has some on hand he can report on.

For your info, measuring my RCBS cast bullets from the front edge of the crimp groove there is a short full diameter section .050 long. The remainder of the bullet nose appears to be an additional .410 (total of .460 from leading shoulder of crimp groove).

Not much info I'm afraid but may help a bit.

BrushBuster · « **Reply #46 on:** January 01, 2004, 08:41:09 AM »

I don't know if we want to get into bore-ride designs on this thread, but I have to say that I have had great success with my first purchase of a cast bullet.

The N.E.I. design #107 for the .348 has worked splendidly! At 255 grains, this bullet does it all for me. The bore-ride portion is fully supported but does not engrave at a diameter of .340. Though it exceeds recommended Cartridge OAL (2.795) its length is 2.845, the bullet feeds and chambers without any problems, and the magazine holds the full compliment of 4 cartridges. Meplate dia. is .200, and what doesn't show on the website picture is that there is a good crimp groove integral in the front band.

I had it sized to .349, and accuracy is very good with 2" groups at 60 yards. My front bead covers a 7" black bull completely at this range, so I am not able to determine its full potential. There is no Leading! BHN is 18-20. Another bonus, there is no case protrusion, with only .500 from gas-check base to the crimp.

The loading I ended up with is 60 grains of R-19. Don't have a chronograph, but estimate 2100 fps. I found 61 grains shook me up, and backed off, but the case showed no pressure indications.

Just wanted you guys to know that I wasn't idle over the holidays.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #47 on:** January 01, 2004, 09:20:33 AM »

Just because your front sight covers a wide area, don't think it's limiting you. There are techniques, especially when shooting paper, that you can employ.

The M-14 has a front sight that 600 yards is wider than the 6' wide target frame - so you just look at the white space on either side of the front sight blade to the two targets to the right and left. The idea is to use something consistant - repeatable. Then you do your part on holding and trigger control.

I do 12" groups (prone) at 600 with iron sights with the M14 and there are shooters that do LOTS better than that!

BrushBuster · « **Reply #48 on:** January 01, 2004, 01:47:57 PM »

I can see that there is no sanctuary for mediocrity in this forum!

Okay, Ill try harder.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #49 on:** January 01, 2004, 02:05:13 PM »

On the contrary, I get most fun from firing mortars. Haven't even thought of measuring group sizes. (And there are many that compete!)

Just launching them (golf balls through 4.5" 7.5lb chunks of concrete) has been enough fun.

stocker · « **Reply #50 on:** January 01, 2004, 02:07:36 PM »

Brush buster:

Try a 6 o'clock hold on the bullseye at 100 yds. and sight in to hit right at top of bead and bottom edge of bull. With a bead covering bull sight picture you are pretty much on the money at 200. Give it a whirl to check with your load.

Where did you obtain the NEI bullets? They sound good to me.

On another tangent I loaded a Hornady 200 grain reversed in the case. I had no trouble getting it to load in the magazine or feed to the chamber. Of course it wouldn't chamber with the lack of throat but it would function through the loading and delivery stages. That bullet does not quite have a square base as there is a small radius to facilitate normal seating in a case.

Happy New Year .

Your group sounds pretty good though given the sights and normal accuracy of the rifle.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #51 on:** January 01, 2004, 05:45:11 PM »

Brushbuster -

There is a concept that most casters have discovered, that is the reality of the lack of control we have because there are so many variables - and they're always changing. It is humbling at times.

So it is perfectly acceptable to be an accuracy nut - many of those types end up being very happy bench-rest folks. In the same light it is equally acceptable to be a plinker - where 'minute-of-beer-can' accuracy is all that is sought after.

What sets most casters apart from the larger world of one-upsmanship is the ability to accept ourselves and our fellow shooters.

Keep up the good work on this project - it's great fun watching you go through the steps to accomplish your goals!

BrushBuster · « **Reply #52 on:** January 02, 2004, 05:09:29 AM »

Cat Whisperer, how do you determine MOA for a 7 lb. block of concrete? :grin:

Stocker: I purchased my bullet from CUSTOM CAST BULLETS and have had no problems with customs clearance! It was cast from the NEI mold #107 for the .348, and the price is very reasonable. If interested, contact Wayne Doudna <wdoudna@hotmail.com> and mention my name.

I will try out your target holding technique, but have you been outside lately? It's minus 25 C at my place!

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #53 on:** January 02, 2004, 05:31:05 AM »

BB-
MOC and MOR (minute of rock) are calculated exactly the same way. :-D

But the 4" pvc pipe (4.500" OD) filled with concrete which weighs 7.5 lbs is the projo I fire from a mortar - goes up to 350 meters. Finding them is often the problem, they bury themselves in the ground.

stocker · « **Reply #54 on:** January 02, 2004, 10:43:06 AM »

Thanks for that info. I've had refusals from other US sources to ship to me due to customs hassle so I'll give him a try.

Todays the day we kill Christmas and the decorations come down so have only been out briefly. It's a balmy -20 in the Puddle early today so didn't have to put shoes or socks on to work outside. I've also got a bridge for sale if you are interested. :-)

BrushBuster · « **Reply #55 on:** January 02, 2004, 02:41:56 PM »

I'm starting to feel very lonely out here on this thread!

One poster lobs obscenely sized projectiles at the innocent landscape, and the other one runs around in his bare feet in winter and sells bridges on the side!

Think I'll just go off to one side and count my bullets.

BrushBuster · « **Reply #56 on:** January 03, 2004, 09:11:41 AM »

Ok. All kidding aside, here's a handloading question.

Though new to the handloading process, I'm pretty happy with all aspects except one. When raising the ram to complete the neck expansion process, I don't like the drag and squeel I still get even though I have brushed and lubed the neck interior with powdered graphite. Is there a better lubricant that won't affect the powder and will do a better job of lubing?

stocker · « **Reply #57 on:** January 03, 2004, 09:45:32 AM »

Brush buster:

I have used a lot of different lubes and methods. I haven't found Imperial Sizing Wax any where up here yet. I bought a container of Hornadys Unique case lube (Wholesale Sports). I believe it is Smiling Mink leather protector repackaged and I now use Smiling Mink almost exclusively. I can do major case reforming without a dimple with it. I apply from my finger tips. Just a dab smeared on your fingers and rub the body of the case, the neck but not the sloped shoulder. I use nylon case cleaning or nylon bore brushes of appropriate sizes lightly rolled in the Smiling Mink and push the brush into the neck and give it a twirl. It's available everywhere (almost) and works like a charm. I don't bother wiping it out after sizing for cast bullet loads. For jacketed I give the inner necks a quick wipe with a Q-tip. Make up a brush for each caliber you use and epoxy the brush into a short T handle. I used short tips cut from deer and moose antlers for a little rustic charm so to speak. If you know any archers get some arrow trimmings of different sizes (diam) from them. I slide them over the brushes to keep them clean when not in use. All except the rig I made for my 45-70 which uses a .410 bore swab lightly lubed to do the neck. I drop it into a little plastic bag. I haven't stuck a case or heard a squeak since I started using the Smiling Mink (or the Hornady Unique). These products look alike, smell alike and work alike. Hornady even noted the lubes usefulness for leather on their container.

stocker · « **Reply #58 on:** January 03, 2004, 11:45:32 AM »

Aladin: I'm sure you are correct that is all that is required. I'm guilty of having a routine that I follow with all the other cases that are not so forgiving and carrying it right along with the 45-70 although I do only partially size them. Just enough so the flaring die has something to work with and the bullets hold firmly .
Even very heavy loads from my 86 extract and rechamber quite easily after firing. I find like Venturino mentioned that I don't like those heavy loads all that much and a more moderate load is adequate for most hunting and especially for range use. Still, when I am in grizzly areas the heavy loads are what I sight in for and carry. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. :roll:

BrushBuster · « **Reply #59 on:** January 03, 2004, 02:39:26 PM »

Okay, here's my take on this.

I am partial sizing to a limited degree by following the directions from my Redding die's. They recommend initially contacting the shellholder and then back off 1/2 turn of the die. If the fired case chambers easily after being sized at this setting, then that is the correct setting for that particular rifle. I tried this, and found that I had to turn in 1/4 turn before my cases would chamber smoothly. I also get a warm fuzzy feeling in Grizzly country when I know that my cartridges will chamber smooth and fast.

As I mentioned, at this setting I still get a heck of a drag on the ram lever upstroke and that annoying squeel that goes with it (but not all the time). Maybe I just have to be a little more agressive brushing out the case necks and try some mink oil in moderation on a separate brush. Graphite just doesn't seem to do the trick.