Author Topic: Are Reloading Manuals a thing of the past ? (Read 1711 times)

stimpylu32 · « **on:** January 03, 2011, 09:57:02 AM »

Just something to think about , the reason I bring this up is with all the info that can be found on the " Net " these days , are BOOKS still needed ?

Don't get me wrong , I have over a dozen on my bench as I type this , However , just about anything one could want is avalable over the net , not just load data , but all the other aspects of Handloading can be found too . Mostly from the same places that print books ( Hornady , Barnes , Nosler , Hodgdons , Alliant , RCBS , Lee ) you get the idea .

Not only does this cover load data , but also case spec's , case cap. ,COL and even the basic concept's of how to load , form the ABC's to the more advanced info needed to Wildcat a cartridge .

Whats your take on this ?

stimpy

Old Syko · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:47:53 AM »

One of my fears is that printed or written word (on paper) will become a thing of the past. Since I've been loading for over 40 years I'm very set in my ways. Even to use the online data offered, I have to download and print it into hard copy to make it usable at the bench. I won't have a puter on my bench as I see it as just another distraction. With hard copy laid in front of me I can glance back at it occasionally to double check things. I don't seem to be able to do that with a monitor. In over 30 years I've not had a round I've loaded fail to feed or fail to fire, and I've yet to blow anything up so don't look for me to change now and I've loaded and shot a lot more than most. I have manuals that go back to the 50s along with some older military data and all the way up to date so I'll likely get by. I may well have enough powder to get me by a few more years also so changes don't affect me as much as they would some.

In essence, as an avid reader of many different types of books, I think it will be a sad day when books are replaced by electronics.

Been in a library lately? The change is upon us whether we like it or not.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** January 03, 2011, 10:57:48 AM »

They may go to CD's ? I hope the book last though , its fun to thumb thru. and just read the stories in some of them about each round. In one the arthur said he gained respect for the 8X57 while running across a deck of a navy ship in WW2 while being attacked by a German plane ( or some such story) good stuff .

wncchester · « **Reply #3 on:** January 03, 2011, 11:44:44 AM »

The tech geeks have come up with E-books of all kinds but there will be a market for paper books as long as I'm alive.

mechanic · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2011, 11:54:22 AM »

I'm wid ja Stimpy, but I've been buying up every used manual I come across. My wife bought a box with 20 in it last year for $15.00. She told me to sell any duplicates..........I've got 25 year old ones and new ones. I refer to the net for data on some cartridges, like the 357 max...but start loading at old book levels. Somehow it just seems more like a sure thing in print....

irold · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2011, 12:08:33 PM »

Like someone else stated , I don't have a putor at my reloading bench. If I'm working up a load , I'll look at several manuals to get an idea of where to start at. Seems some manuals are a lot more conserative than others, so I work on averages. Haven't learned how to compare different sites yet....(I know it can be done)and I'm just a little bull-headed, I like it in front of me where I can read and reread and compare before I stuff a case full of Bullseye (ouch)

regards irold

Land_Owner · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2011, 12:10:10 PM »

The Internet has been hailed as a wholesale warehouse of fingertip information AS WELL AS MISINFORMATION. If it isn't published in a powder or bullet manufacturer's book, where I can put my grubby hands on their data, it isn't going down my barrel.

You can "wildcat" from data on the Net all you wish. I am much too proud of all my fingers, hands, and facial features to go the Net route to modern smokeless powder cartridge preparation.

irold · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2011, 12:26:32 PM »

Landowner , Well said.......and I agree 100 percent !

irold

nova71 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2011, 01:14:45 PM »

I make notes in my manuals so I don't forget, I ain't figgered out how to do that on the computer

GH1 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2011, 02:25:15 PM »

When I start out on a new load I consult all of my books as well as powder manufacturer websites. I am of the belief that one can never have too much info when it comes to reloading.
GH1

Brithunter · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2011, 02:57:33 PM »

I am with you guys I just wish Hodgdons would come out with a new manual. If it was not for a very kind soul on these forums who sent a Hodgdons annual one from 2009 I would be stumped as my #26 is missing a whole host of the newer powders.

I like books and e-book just ain't the same. My books don't need batteries and pages/books kept properly will last for centuries and I cannot see CD's etc doing that. I have books on huntign and shooting going back to the 1890's and I can still read them today.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2011, 03:12:38 PM »

Don't get me wrong here guys , I still feel that a good manual is worth its weight in gold or atleast lead

I still use both books as well as the net for info .

However , in the last couple years how many times have the " Experts " came out and said "You need to go to this LINK or Write to this address and get Up-dates because we screwed up "

Basicly what's my point ? , There are more and more ways to skin a cat these days , so don't be too hard on someone that uses the Net to learn and not a Book .

And lastly , I keep my computer right beside my loading bench , just as I do with all my other TOOLS that I need to do this Hobby - SAFELY

stimpy

PS - I never misplace my computer like I do books

manatee1947 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 03, 2011, 04:10:31 PM »

I have books back to the mid 60's, and loads from them that still work just fine even though newer ones say they are too hot. I also have loads for odd calibers that cannot be found now days. And, books work anywhere- without a power source, they never run down, are not temperature or humidity sensitive, never crash, and do not have any popups.

Larry L · « **Reply #13 on:** January 03, 2011, 04:28:43 PM »

Well, call me paranoid, I don't care, but considering the U.N. is wanting to take over the internet and our morons in DC have already given "control" over to the Feds, I would never consider any data as safe on the net. Not safe in that it would be hazardous, but safe in that one day you might find it forbidden info. I'll always have the manuals and consider the data from the powder makers on the net as a convenience.

dieselman · « **Reply #14 on:** January 03, 2011, 04:42:01 PM »

One thing that is nice about net stuff NO misprints or type "o"s if there is then they can fix it right away. Once its in print theres no goin back. As an auto mech all our tech mans are goin on line so they are up dated as needed, not so with paper copies, in the USMC all our aircraft mans went on-line as well no delay in updates. Its not easy to have a comp where your working but, they are not all bad.... Did I just say that?

PowPow · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:14:46 AM »

The nice thing about going to the powder manufacturer's website is that I can get only the info I want, and don't have to sort through a lot of other calibers. I will use a site like reloaders nest, not to copy a specific recipe, but more for "reviews" on what powders folks have had succes with in my calibers, then I will work up from 10% below manufacturer's max.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:43:15 AM »

The axiom for the computer has always been GIGO - Garbage In Garbage Out. It should be readily apparent that misinformation can be posted to the Net at the speed of light. Proof readers are insurmountably important to publish a loading manual. Sure printed data gets mixed up, left out, swapped around, and retractions/corrections are usually forthcoming, which are transmitted swiftly. Usually everyone that needs to know finds out quickly. That IS the way the established system works. I do not have the same confidence in the Net.

There are STILL people that do not have computers, but they have books. There are STILL people that are not e-mail or cell phone savvy. There are STILL people that use DIAL UP internet service. There are still power outages, delays, viruses, and a host of difficulties with the Net. It isn't the right time for a cessation of books. Mankind has not 'progressed' to that point.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2011, 03:13:17 AM »

Old manuals are good reading and coupled with new ones show a history of load development. Caution should be exersized though as powder manf. changes have taken place as indicated by lot numbers . Over a long period of time some powders change enough that max loads go down. Also testing has changed and become more accurate. Some bullets were added and some jacket material or construction changed also.I have some speer books that are quite hot for todays products.
BUT if you are like me and have both bullets , powder and primers form as far back as the 70's those books are worth alot , some powders are no longer made and don't appear in new data .

Old Syko · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2011, 03:17:16 AM »

Now-days the web has taken the place of magazines I used to spend money on. The publishers turned the rags into nothing but a platform for advertising and the so-called "experts" who wrote the articles all sold out to greed. The same information that was actually 95% useless is now available for free on the web. The same can't be said for load manuals. They have always been 95% information.

The web being under government control will certainly make a Fahrenheit 451 scenario much simpler to accomplish.

BTW, how many who choose to keep a puter on their loading bench have discovered how such proximity affects their new digital scale? Even a cell phone will make them do wild things. I don't have these problems with my books and beams.

wncchester · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2011, 04:26:39 AM »

"...how such proximity affects their new digital scale? Even a cell phone will make them do wild things. I don't have these problems with my books and beams."

Roger that.

nomosendero · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2011, 03:26:58 PM »

Stimpy, the net has slowed the demand, but there is still a demand. Case in point, it costs alot to print a manual, yet Hornady just released a new one. Sadly, alot of folks just think they can get online & ask about a max load. I answered one of those on this forum recently about a 300WM. Maybe I shouldn't have. What a lot of folks don't realize is the other info & tips in the manuals are very good. I will continue to buy them & I know you will as well &
probably most reloaders over 40, but the youngs ones getting in the game, I don't know.

necchi · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2011, 07:28:31 PM »

Quote from: Land_Owner on January 04, 2011, 02:43:15 AM

The axiom for the computer has always been GIGO - Garbage In Garbage Out. It should be readily apparent that misinformation can be posted to the Net at the speed of light. ,,,,,

There are still power outages, delays, viruses, and a host of difficulties with the Net. It isn't the right time for a cessation of books. Mankind has not 'progressed' to that point.

Well said, those two points are reason enough to still have the books.
No denie-ing there is lot's of info out there, but ole' tried-n-true will be hard to replace for some time yet.

In all reality, isn't the info, no matter it's source, just a guide line to begin with? Where as each loader needs to determine his load for himself and his gun?

Land_Owner · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2011, 01:24:13 AM »

Quote from: necchi on January 04, 2011, 07:28:31 PM

In all reality, isn't the info, no matter it's source, just a guide line to begin with? Where as each loader needs to determine his load for himself and his gun?

Yes, but without that narrow band of information for each cartridge being first investigated by the powder/bullet manufacturers, there would be a SIGNIFICANT number of first time loaders blowing up their guns and possibly themselves. If we were all left to struggle with a starting load and powder, without the benefit of CONTROLLED TESTING by professionals, which is what we actually pay for when we purchase their books, then you and I are left to experiment. Experimentation with components capable of MORE THAN 65,000 POUNDS-PER-SQUARE-INCH of explosive force right under our noses is a BAD DAY ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

Larry L · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2011, 09:31:55 AM »

Another thing for you guys that rely on the net for info. I was starting to look at loads for a 38 Special for an elderly lady friend that lives alone and about 30 miles form the Mexico border. She's still quite a shot, bless her heart. I was researching powder and bullet combos on Hodgdons website when I came across a load for a 38 Special pushing a 125gr bullet at 1500'ps with a max load. I compared that to the same bullet weight for a 357 Mag and it was considerably slower than the 38 data. I called the Hodgdon folks and the data was wrong. They had the 38 Special data listed with 357 Mag loads and 357 Mag loads listed on the 38 Special data for that one powder only. I'm surprised somebody didn't mess up a gun but when starting to look for powder and bullet combos, always check several sources and if a load looks wrong- it probably is wrong. Same goes for any printed manuals. Always check and then check again.Generally, you only get one chance to screw up reloading ammo.

tth_40 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 07, 2011, 09:03:15 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on January 03, 2011, 10:57:48 AM

They may go to CD's ? I hope the book last though , its fun to thumb thru. and just read the stories in some of them about each round. In one the arthur said he gained respect for the 8X57 while running across a deck of a navy ship in WW2 while being attacked by a German plane ( or some such story) good stuff .

I like that story too. It's in the Nosler No. 3 manual, story by Al Miller.

john keyes · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2011, 07:50:37 AM »

I love reading those books, I never throw any of them away. Every once in a while I come across a few at resales shops and stuff there will be powders I never heard of. I use the Hodgdon web site now for loads and agree stuff is definitely scaled back.

The funniest thing in a book I remember was along the lines of "the 8mm Remington Magnum is advertised to be a powerful flat shooting rifle with ample power for the largest of North Americas game, all without excessive or uncomfortable recoil. Some shooters with considerable experience shooting magnum rifles have disagreed with the last statement."

Another one said "the 256 Winchester is best know for the short time it took to flop"

For some reason I've always had my eye out for an 8mm Rem mag. strange fascination.

MnMike · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2011, 05:57:19 PM »

I like four types of load info.

The book kind that costs a lot. It has a history of each round and load data.

The magazine kind that Hodgden puts out. Has some of the latest data without turning on the computer. I can lay in bed and compare this and that and daydream about my next purchase.

The online kind that is always up to date. This is for the major bullet/powder sites.

Other sites give odd ideas for underpowered loads, uncommon powders for a round, or oddball bullets. These are to be used with caution.

pme166 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 09, 2011, 06:48:17 AM »

I have to say I like to search the web for loads, but there is nothing like sitting down at the kitchen table with a dozen manuals or so and contemplating a starting load or considering the results of your last experiment.

I have now a complete book cabinet of manuals and books on reloading. I have them dating back to the 20's and if I were to stack them up, they would be a good 9 ft tall. But I still buy the new manuals and use alibris to fill in my gaps. Old manuals are a wealth of details you cannot get off the web.

johnjohn · « **Reply #28 on:** January 09, 2011, 08:28:38 AM »

I'm with most of the folks who replied to this post. I like to see it in black and white printed on paper.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #29 on:** January 09, 2011, 09:33:01 AM »

Wow?

I never considered the internet a serious competition to books...but I can see what you mean..for myself..I love loading books..I seldom get any load info..off of the net..but as Nomosendero pointed out younger shooters are probably not book oriented like older shooters..My step grandson is a sharp kid..he is 14..but he is not into reading books as much as I would want he to be... he is a busy kid..not a lazy kid, and I have never heard him say he is bored..always busy..but his cel phone, tv, and little electric games are his thing..I would much rather see him pick up a book and read, but it hasn't happened yet..he did read OUTLAW for a book report for school, and now he is reading THE OLD MAN AND THE BOY...maybe this will do the trick..Mean while, I will get most of my load data from my books...