Author Topic: bronze cannon (Read 2694 times)

1swampthing · « **on:** January 04, 2011, 02:22:31 AM »

Since original bronze cannons did not have steel sleeves would a well cast bronze barrel today necessarily need a sleeve to be safe?

Double D · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:34:09 AM »

We recommend that all new cannons be built to the minimum standards of the N-SSA and AAA. Why would you not want to build to safety standards?

1swampthing · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:58:58 AM »

I already paid to have a full bore mountain howitzer barrel cast. The casting is complete and he just has to finish drilling the barrel out. My intention is to have it x-rayed when I get it to verify the casting. I am new to artilery but I do know a man who had a 6lb napolion cast by this same foundry and has been reguarly reenacting with it for some time now. I am having my carrage built by Miller cannon and carrage co in Tenn. and he said that he has mounted a number of bronze guns from this same foundry.(Gilmore Ordinance) He vertically cast using 88102 naval bronze and from what I have researched he has been making barrels for awhile including the bronze guns used in the movie Last Sammuri. Now that I have been reading on this forum as well as other sites I am hoping that I have not made a mistake.

dan610324 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2011, 03:06:56 AM »

original cast iron cannons didnt have any sleeves either
but many of them did actually explode during fire

so I can just agree with dd here , BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY

for small cannons of bronze with very small calibers it might be an overkill with a sleeve if you follow the 1 cal rule .
but you can blow anything up with too much powder or by using smokeless powder

what size ??

just remember that in the old days during war a few extra dead soldiers killed by exploading cannons was an acceptale lost .
but today I hope we have a little other thinking when it comes to safety .

you maybe know where the limits are , but what will happened when your grandchildren owns it ??
do they know what to use and how much ?? there isnt many people who does

the mountain howie is by modern safety standards NOT a good design
so I hope that you not are going to make the bore in full caliber
scale the bore and chamber down a little so you have thicker walls surrounding the chamber than the chamber diameter

Artilleryman · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2011, 05:34:29 AM »

The N-SSA does not require all bronze guns to be lined. The rule in part is as follows: All reproduction barrels must be made of iron, steel or bronze. All reproduction barrels and those original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness. There are several or were several unlined bronze guns being used in the N-SSA.

1swampthing · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2011, 11:25:32 AM »

The man who cast my barrel said that one of the sleeveless bronze guns that he cast in the past is actively participating in nssa activities. What would be the inspection method that would be used by the nssa to determine the safety of a gun. As for my gun I will probably be firing blanks 99% of the time but may want to live fire it on rare occasions. Mine is going to be a full 4.62 bore.

GGaskill · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2011, 12:14:04 PM »

My intention is to have it x-rayed when I get it to verify the casting.

If I were inspecting a tube by radiation, I would use a radio-isotope in the bore with film wrapped around the barrel. Gamma radiation penetrates much better than Xrays and there would be less confusion as to where any feature was than if the Xrays were going through both sides of the tube.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2011, 12:17:38 PM »

They ask who made the tube, how it was made, and material used. They inspect the bore with an endoscope to see its condition. Any flaws in the bore such as cracks or cavities would cause it to be rejected. They also check to see if the tube has the correct dimensions. You indicated that the barrel you are getting is cast solid and vertically. This is the best process as any flaws in the casting are usually found in the center of the casting and they will be removed during the machining process.

If you use a projectile in this tube, make sure that it does not exceed the weight of a shell. This gun was not designed to fire full weight, 12 lb shot.

rampa room artillery · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2011, 01:08:18 PM »

a safety inspection can be arranged, the inspector for the n-ssa is located in poquoson va. but for at least nssa members you can have him come to you for the cost of travel and a small fee i believe. i would recommend come on down here to poquoson va. and we can all go out for lunch. or you can have the gun inspected at a national at winchester va or a regional shoot in capron va.

if you want more info. pm me .

rick bryan

1swampthing · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:10:12 PM »

Thanks alot for the info. The first chance I get I will try to get to Va for an event just to watch if nothing else. I would love to see a live fire event to see what goes on. My experience with artilery is limited to seeing them at reenactments. I normally reenact as infantry but I have several friends in the artilery. As far as live fire I probably will not shoot anything heavier than perhaps a booce ball. The main thing I am getting this cannon for is for my SCV camp. We regularly have cross of honor ceremonys and memorial services and only about half of the time do we get someone with a cannon to participate. Also we do living history events at several schools around here and some of the schools actually will allow us to demonstrate a cannon firing if we have one. When we do have one the kids really get off on it.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:37:28 PM »

If you can get to Grayling, Michigan July 30-31st for the Long Range Artillery Match you would be able to see various full scale artillery pieces firing at ranges up to 1200 yards. This is an event that is well worth attending.

1swampthing · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2011, 05:38:15 PM »

Since I live in South Carolina a trip to Virginia would be a lot less driving although it would be cool to see that kind of long range shooting.

Double D · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2011, 06:21:53 PM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on January 04, 2011, 05:34:29 AM

The N-SSA does not require all bronze guns to be lined. The rule in part is as follows: All reproduction barrels must be made of iron, steel or bronze. All reproduction barrels and those original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness. There are several or were several unlined bronze guns being used in the N-SSA.

If I read this right all reproduction barrels must be lined. Only original barrels that pass inspection do not have to be lined. Is this correct?

So 1Swampthings cannon would need to be lined.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2011, 06:35:56 PM »

They are or were not reading it that way. They are reading it as all barrels failing inspection must be lined. Cast iron reproductions "fail" if they are not lined. Reproduction barrels made entirely of steel for example do not need to be lined as that would be redundant. There are or were unlined reproduction bronze barrels that were approved. I have been out of that organization for a year now and I am not up on their current interpretation only what it was before I left.

dan610324 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2011, 11:48:13 PM »

the nss-a also accept +/- 10% in dimension changes from the originals
so if the outer dimensions was + 10% and the bore and chamber diameters would be - 10%
then it would at least be a little closer to the recomended 1 cal rule on a mountain howie

Artilleryman · « **Reply #15 on:** January 05, 2011, 02:49:13 AM »

I have heard of the +/-10% on dimensions, but never confirmed it with the national artillery officer. There is nothing in the rules about this, and I think that it goes against the full scale rule. If there is a an acceptance of a +/-, I think it should be a much closer tolerance.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** January 05, 2011, 03:26:47 AM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on January 04, 2011, 05:34:29 AM

The N-SSA does not require all bronze guns to be lined. The rule in part is as follows: All reproduction barrels must be made of iron, steel or bronze. All reproduction barrels and those original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness. There are several or were several unlined bronze guns being used in the N-SSA.

So that sentence needs edited taking the word "those" out, to read:

All reproduction barrels and original barrels failing inspection must be lined with a bore liner of extruded seamless steel tubing of a minimum ANSI standard and of a minimum 3/8-inch wall thickness.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 05, 2011, 03:33:52 AM »

To match up with what they are allowing, yes. If tolerances are being allowed they should be specified also.

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** January 05, 2011, 03:58:19 AM »

Norm,

Is this new group you are involved with going to come up with a set of standards.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2011, 05:55:19 AM »

The American Civil War Shooters Association has a set of artillery rules which were written this past year and they will be up for approval at a February meeting. I am currently the artillery officer for the ACWSA.

dan610324 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2011, 08:21:29 AM »

it would be interesting to know how much difference there is in diameter from the largest howie to the smallest
many different foundries made them and I guess the diameters could vary a bit between the originals

Double D · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2011, 08:28:13 AM »

Norm,

I do hope some of the discussions we have had here about the vagueness of the of N-SSA and AAA standards has been useful. In particular this liner issue as we just discussed and a very definite indication of which ANSI standard for which liner material is needed.

gary michie · « **Reply #22 on:** January 07, 2011, 08:47:42 PM »

Hi

I got in on this a little late but i am a Civil war reenactor and have 2 MH. now and I know of no reports of MH blowing up in the 50 odd years the u.s. used them, and if the Xray shows no inclusions and if for sure Naval bronze was used then the gun is pretty safe. With 45,000 lbs or better tensel strength, useing the hoop stress formula you get a safety ratio way over the 5-1 rating of your hi power modern rifle. Last... a sleeved cannon does have a lifespan no one has a idea what that is yet, but leeks happen corrosion starts and all out of sight. A solid cast, xray, proof barrel side steps this.